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Old 10-07-2013, 09:05 PM   #1
Rdrnnr0123
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Cold Mountain Package

I have 277 rl outback with the cold mountain package. Can anyone tell me if tanks are heated or is it just ducted heating in floor and insulated under belly?
Thanks in advance.

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Old 10-07-2013, 10:08 PM   #2
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If your Outback is the same as other Keystone RV's, the tanks are not really heated as such but are "warmed" by the 2" ducting. Have you checked the "insulated" underbelly? If not, have a peek in there someday and you may find some insulation loosely scattered or, if you are lucky, actually packed close to the tanks. It would be interesting to see how much real "heat" is reaching the tanks.

I see that that Keystone has a new advertising gimmick ---- The Arctic Package, The Polar Package, the ??? Package and now the Cold Mountain Package. Don't be fooled into thinking that you can use your Outback in Alberta during the winter without making major modifications to the underbelly and its insulation, adding skirting, etc. This is a 3 season unit at least where you live!

The tanks are "heated" only when the furnace is running and the coroplast underbelly will provide very little, if any, insulating value. In addition, there are numerous openings for water lines, valve pulls, pipes, all of which allow cold air to enter the underbelly.
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:48 PM   #3
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I have a 277RL and I've just been under mine running cable for a 20A inlet. I peeled the coroplast back to get to what I needed and there was NO insulation under the trailer that I could see. I didn't open it up enough to trace heater ducting, but I'm going to guess that the only heat that the tanks get is what radiates through the foil duct and that the only protection the coroplast offers is like skirting on a mobil home that just blocks wind. Keystone's representation of this trailer being suitable for extended cold weather camping is over the top misleading. I would like to see someone call Keystone and ask exactly how the tanks are heated and what in particular about the Arctic Package makes it suitable for cold weather camping. I bet you'll get a lot of hem-hawing and dancing around on that one.

If I were going to spend much time in a cold climate, I would certainly install some roll insulation between the coroplast and the floor. It would be easy enough to cut it with a razor knife, put in the insulation and tape it up with gorilla tape.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:18 AM   #4
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Bob -

I can answer all these questions and comments. Keystone will answer that the shiny bubble wrap gives excellent insulation, and then will keep repeating the same. The tanks are "heated" by one 2.5" duct off the furnace that as a T at each valve and ends with an open duct at the last valve. The T may or may not be directed at the valve. Personally, I think we should wrap a manager at Keystone in shiny bubble wrap and boot him out the door at Goshen in January. Let him feel how that bubble wrap keeps one warm!

There is a long thread on Polar, Arctic, etc. Package. I started that thread, and you can probably easily find it via the Search function.

I also have a long series of posts in the Mods section describing in detail how to install tank heaters, the controls, and how to properly install fiberglass insulation in the underbelly. (I am known for my underbelly excursions!). Be sure to leave a small air space between the bottom of the floor (top of the underbelly) and the top of the insulation. You will find insulating the underbelly will reduce the humidity in the RV. It's all out there in Mods and some in Repairs, along with plenty of pictures and "how to".

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Old 10-09-2013, 05:53 AM   #5
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I did not even see any shiney bubble wrap. Maybe I didn't look in the right place. When I dropped the coroplast there was nothing but exposed frame, tanks, and wiring. I didn't look to see if they might have stapled it to the bottom of the floor, I'll look when I go back to the trailer.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Landry View Post
I did not even see any shiney bubble wrap. Maybe I didn't look in the right place. When I dropped the coroplast there was nothing but exposed frame, tanks, and wiring. I didn't look to see if they might have stapled it to the bottom of the floor, I'll look when I go back to the trailer.
X2, I recently had to remove section of belly to service my black/grey tank valves. There was no bubble wrap insulation. Just black coroplast covering, tanks and wiring. The only insulation was directly beneath sub floor between floor joists with black fabric covering it. I also saw no sign of a 2" heat duct line. I am not impressed.
I guess on next purchase I wil physically drop belly and get a look before I drop $50g.
Steve
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:57 AM   #7
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I think that at this point, I'm just considering myself fortunate that I have had as few problems as I've had. I'm certainly doing better than a lot of folks that have has pages of issues right after pulling it off the lot. In spite of the few issues I've had, Keystone is not on my short list for the next trailer. There's no need to push my luck.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by therink View Post
X2, I recently had to remove section of belly to service my black/grey tank valves. There was no bubble wrap insulation. Just black coroplast covering, tanks and wiring. The only insulation was directly beneath sub floor between floor joists with black fabric covering it. I also saw no sign of a 2" heat duct line. I am not impressed.
I guess on next purchase I wil physically drop belly and get a look before I drop $50g.
Steve
Steve,

If you take the furnace access panel off the front of your furnace, you should see the 4" ducting. Behind it, usually on the left side, is a 2" aluminized duct that should head directly into the underbelly through the floor. Trying to find it in the underbelly is a bit tougher unless you have almost complete access since it's usually tucked up close to the flooring and above most of the tanks/plumbing runs.

I'm certainly not defending Keystone's choice of "insulated underbelly" statements, but it's often easier to find it on top of the floor rather than under it.

If you're looking for any improvement over what we have in our rigs, you're going to be upward of $100K before you get into the "really well insulated" fifth wheels. It's not just Keystone, the entire RV industry is doing much the same thing. Arctic Fox advertises a "true sub-zero basement" The only difference I can see in that and my Cougar is the addition of 12 volt tank heaters taped to the bottom of each tank. Otherwise, it looks just like mine. I don't think you can find a truly "all season" RV in the price ranges that compete with Keystone's products. At least I've never seen one.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:09 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=JRTJH;98772]Steve,

If yoentire the furnace access panel off the front of your furnace, you should see the 4" ducting. Behind it, usually on the left side, is a 2" aluminized duct that should head directly into the underbelly through the floor. Trying to find it in the underbelly is a bit tougher unless you have almost complete access since it's usually tucked up close to the flooring and above most of the tanks/plumbing runs.

I'm certainly not defending Keystone's choice of "insulated underbelly" statements, but it's often easier to find it on top of the floor rather than under it.

If you're looking for any improvement over what we have in our rigs, you're going to be upward of $100K before you get into the "really well insulated" fifth wheels. It's not just Keystone, the entire RV industry is doing much the same thing. Arctic Fox advertises a "true sub-zero basement" The only difference I can see in that and my Cougar is the addition of 12 volt tank heaters taped to the bottom of each tank. Otherwise, it looks just like mine. I don't think you can find a truly "all season" RV in the price ranges that compete with Keystone's products. At least I've never seen one.[/
QUOTE]

John

Yeah, I am not expecting a 4 season unit but was at least expecting a layer of foil insulation between the tanks and coroplast belly cover. I am considering dropping the cover and adding it myself from front to rear. While foil insulation doesn't add much R value, it would help if insalled properly. Based on the way wiring lies loosely on top of the coroplast (like a bowl of spaghetti) I think that manufacturers find it cheaper to place coroplast on the underside simply to support the bundle of loose wires and then make it buyers feel good by calling it Glacial Barrier or whatever. I believe they install the coroplast when the frame is flipped upside down in the factory.

I will take a look, but my furnace unit is located in the front basement with the inward side (intake) located behind the panel in my front basement storage compartment versus inside the living room or kitchen like my previous fiver. The ductless fresh air return enters a grate under the inside steps then travels ductless into the basement and then across the compartment to the furnace. I will have to crawl into there and take a look to see if this 2" duct exists. I looked before and didn't see it.
Steve
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #10
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I'm going out tomorrow to do my 20A project and I'll pull the grill off the heater compartment and look for the duct. I have never seen it, but I never looked for it either.
That they install the coroplast with the frame upside down makes sense, given the way the wire lacks any kind of harness or bundling. It's pretty much a spaghetti bowl when you open it up. One thing I did look for when I opened it up was how the heat duct was installed. They seemed to do a pretty good job, as it wasn't kinked or anything. I was expecting much worse. While I'm in there, I'm going to take a bag of ties wraps with me and bundle things up as much as possible. It's not unusual for wire insulation to abrade against metal and cause a short. The likelihood is minimal, but since I'm in there anyway, it just makes sense to do it. Tie wraps are pretty cheap.
I'm thinking that if there is a heat duct going below the floor for the tanks, a layer of aluminum insulation on top of the coroplast and between the sections of the frame where the tanks are might be beneficial. That stuff is pretty cheap. I'm not going to get to excited about it because our extreme cold weather camping is very limited.
My to-do list just seems to be getting longer. I killed my day, or half of it, running a new backup camera cable from my rar , under the frame, up through the A-pillar, and to the rear view mirror. Thieves stole my tailgate a few nights ago and instead of simply unplugging the cable, they cut it, so the whole thing had to be replaced. It doesn't seem to end.
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Old 10-09-2013, 04:05 PM   #11
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DA*N Bob !!!! (That's DARN if you're so inclined) LOL

They stole the tailgate on your new truck? BUMMER !!!!!

I usually lock ours. Not sure if that really would help if someone wanted it, but it'll look better for the insurance company if it ever happens. I'm guessing by the time your insurance pays, it's going to be over a grand to replace it..... Not a fun way to start your haloween camping season
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:33 AM   #12
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For the replacement of the tailgate, the aftermarket backup camera, and the BedRug tailgate liner that was on it, try $2200. My deductible is $500 and they also helped themselves to around $500 in fishing tackle that I stupidly left in the truck. I won't make that mistake again. We have the Castle Doctrine in Texas. Too bad I couldn't have caught them in the act. My .45 is "equal opportunity".. LOL

Where I live, HD trucks and parts off of them are in great demand. The Mexican gangs like them because the are plentiful, they can be gutted to haul illegals and drugs and when they're finished with them, they can be stripped and parted out. The President of our rifle club had his F250 stolen under the nose of two undercover cops who had left the parking lot for a few minutes to go do something(probably a donut break). It was parked close to the restaurant where we were having a Board meeting and under a light. Didn't slow them down a bit. I figured that by the time the cops made it out to dust for prints and file a report, my tailgate was probably halfway to Laredo or in an East Austin chop shop with a new coat of paint drying and waiting to go on Craigslist.

I did run across a device that I'm going to try called a Gate Keeper. It is a bracket that bolts over the hinge on the end of the tailgate that you lift up to remove it. it's not thief proof, but maybe it will offer enough resistance to slow them down and move on to the next one. It's only $25, but what the heck..
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:35 AM   #13
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in our outback 295RE underbelly is heated by convection. So... what I did was pull up the floor register in the bedroom and the one in the kitchen. It turns out the bedroom one is located between the fresh and black tank. The kitchen between the two grey tanks. Then on each floor register I used a drill and hole saw to cut a 1/2" dia hole in the side of the heat register floor pan, once on each side of the duct.

Now when heat comes on some hot air goes directly between the tanks. I have a remote thermometer I put in the belly and the belly stays essentially the same temp as the interior now.

BTW west coast cougars now have a much better insulation package available. Don't know if outback is going to do the same thing. Foam everywhere including the ceiling. thermopane windows, a real heated and insulated underbelly. ducts to the underbelly and foam insulation above the corplast and I think even along the frame rails.

The outback is IMHO a nice 3 season trailer. We can and do camp in ours when night temps are in the low 20's without problems, but much lower and if daytime doesn't get above freezing, the furnace would be running almost constantly. And the limited insulation doesn't do much good in really hot summer days either.

And if it's humid and cold. (common on the oregon coast) we need to run a dehumidifier to keep down fogging on the windows.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:39 AM   #14
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You can only do so much with 2" aluminum framed side walls. About R9 or so is the best you're going to get. The floor/roof, front cap might get a tad better R value, but there's just not a lot of "empty space" to stuff insulation in on the sides.
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