Decline of the Diesel??

[Seann]

I have had both.. and will keep my diesel. Diesels last much longer than gas engines..

[geo]

I spent three years looking at pickups with TV in mind. I was driving a 1999Dakota with a fiver in future plans. I had almost settled on the Dodge 3500 diesel when Dodge closed the Denton, TX dealership and three months later gave it to a Lincoln-Mercury dealer less than a half mile away! Then I caught wind of a new Ford for 2011. Spent hours on the Internet and digging through magazines! Do this and you will hardly believe all the new Ford F-Series went through! Yes, Ford did buy back an engine manufacturer they sold years ago. And, yes, Ford does make the diesel engine in Chihuahua, MX - our three DD love it, two short-/one long-haired Chihuahuas! (From a different thread - they ARE REAL dogs!) But Ford has done it RIGHT!

Who needs to turn off the engine in the drive-thru? This 6.7L almost purrs! No smoke either - it's basically a Green Diesel. (If the onboard computer ever goes down . . . oh boy . . . it will be bad!) It has the DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid, a diluted ammonia mix) exhaust injection that ties up the NOx. The manifolds are backwards - the intake is on the outside of the V and the exhaust is on the inside. Exhaust feeds right in to the dual stage turbo. Diesel is injected as 5 puffs, not a single squirt - that's what helps to make it quiet and smokeless. I hate, and enjoy, pulling up to other diesels at a stop light. That's not mine you hear!

For 2011, Ford has only one transmission for gas or diesel - and it's an automatic with manual mode. A chip made in Malaysia, programmed in Switzerland, and installed in Louisville makes the torque converter choice, etc., as to whether the transmission is gas or diesel. (Icelandic volcano caused a shipping delay.) But it's a six speed (two overdrive) transmission! There's a shift button to go into Tow/Haul mode (cuts the overdrive, increases shift points). It also has an "automatic" jake brake - that's a little unnerving when you first experience it (coming down the Arbuckle Mountains). The duallies are not as wide as former models. The F350 has about 8' "hips". Same width as the fiver.

The F350 can be ordered with a Fifth Wheel option. The Reese hitch rails are built into the frame and bed. Trailer connect built-in to the side of the bed. The hitch - a joint designed Reese Signature Elite 25K. Darn thing gimbles in any direction! Heavy duty (2.5" shank) tow hitch with two trailer connects also below the bumper. Trailer brake comes installed. The computer is programmed to accept 10 trailers. You can name them, select them, and it remembers all the settings (brake gain, etc.) for each. The computer is supposed to "learn" about your towing habits with time. Little AI programming there.

I don't think the diesel is on the decline when you hitch up the fiver and hit the road in this F350 TV. Once you drive one, you will understand why we have nicknamed ours "The Beast".

Diesel mileage: with 6200 miles, getting around 15 mpg on the highway with north Dallas traffic. With a not fully loaded Alpine 3640RL (maybe 13000 lb.), mileage drops to around 13.5 mpg. I don't think that's too bad. I understand these values will increase until I get about 35000 miles or so racked up.

Sorry for the long post, but as you can tell, I'm really sold on the 2011 F350. It's definitely not a "Find On Roadside Dead" or "Fix Or Repair Daily". I have had no problems. It is just one wonderful TV. With the huge chrome grille, you will see me coming down the road!

Ron

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by geo

Who needs to turn off the engine in the drive-thru? This 6.7L almost purrs! No smoke either - it's basically a Green Diesel. (If the onboard computer ever goes down . . . oh boy . . . it will be bad!) It has the DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid, a diluted ammonia mix) exhaust injection that ties up the NOx. The manifolds are backwards - the intake is on the outside of the V and the exhaust is on the inside. Exhaust feeds right in to the dual stage turbo. Diesel is injected as 5 puffs, not a single squirt - that's what helps to make it quiet and smokeless. I hate, and enjoy, pulling up to other diesels at a stop light. That's not mine you hear!


Ron

Ron, please keep us posted on the your new Ford truck an how much "Urea" it uses in 5,000 miles. Also are the fuel mileage numbers from the truck's ECM or are they hand calculated?

Jim
The original 6.7L engine "Cummins" .

[hoffbrew]

Please keep us posted. You have my next truck!!!!

[geo]

Jim -
The DEF tank varies as to which cab/bed combination you have. It's been a couple of months since I looked at it, but I believe the CC LB DRW combo I have has an 8 gallon DEF. In theory (protection here), that is supposed to last at least 7500 miles - depending upon driving conditions, load, etc. (7500 miles is also typical oil and filter change. 13 quarts if I remember right. I've started a savings account.)

I was surprised to find that I was getting DEF warnings around 4,000 miles. Actually, I had checked the tank level around 2500 miles and noticed I had less than a half tank. Curious, but didn't believe the computer. I now suspect that Ford ships the truck with only a half-full DEF tank. So, if you buy one, get the dealership to fill the DEF to a tankfull before you accept it and drive it away!

And, don't even think about driving with an empty DEF tank! That is not a warning (starts at 750 miles to empty) you see on the screen - when you read the documentation, it turns into a threat! Honestly!

You can buy DEF by the gallon (around $11) or by the 5 gallon (?), or you can get a Ford dealer to fill it. Bill Utter Ford (my dealer) and I are the "guinea pigs" for the 2011 Diesel in our area. When I got the 750 mile warning, I visited the Ford dealer. Here's another tip, be sure to ask the Ford dealer if their staff is trained on filling the DEF. New kid on my first visit. You are not supposed to run the DEF out the fill neck! He did. So after even a proper "fill", they should replace the cap, make sure the diesel cap is tight, and then wipe/wash the fill area down with a damp cloth/water. When I filled up with diesel later that day (traveling), I found a large area of white ammonia crystals down the side of the truck and all under the fill cover. So, I got to wash it down with cool water . . . That won't happen again.

I understand that there are truck stops that have DEF pumps alongside the diesel pumps. I haven't seen that yet, but this is Texas. With all the warnings, I'm a little hesitant not to use Ford-sold DEF.

The mileage is from the ECM. There are so many combinations to keep track of mileage on the onboard computer! The computer also keeps track of miles for the trailers attached. Yup, Orwell was correct, Big Brother is here and living behind the dashboard of my truck. Hand calculated mileage can actually vary a mile or so a gallon - unless you are real good at always filling to the exact same spot with the auto-shutoff nozzle.

Hoffbrew - Thanks! Honestly, it is one awesome truck! My wife loves to drive it! My married daughter wants to take it away from me! If you pass through north Texas, drop by to see it!

I'll go on the limb here - Ford did a really good job on this truck! I've owned F150s in the past and have driven everything from a Studebaker to a Volvo duce and a half. This F350 beats them all. It's just awesome. But, if you do get one, it is REALLY rtfm. You really need to break down, get the reading glasses, and pull out all the manuals. Especially if you plan to fill your own DEF tank! Just grit your teeth and read the manuals.

Ron

[hoffbrew]

i just went to the dealer for a oil change, I have life time oil changes...that's why!, and looked at the 2011 F450 crew dually..... Dam... I mean DANG!!! I have come to the conclusion that I need one. I will leave the brochure lying around for awhile. Don't want to throw it at her all at once!

[Festus2]

If you two carry on like this much longer, you will have us all running out to the nearest Ford dealership!! But unless I win the lottery, I guess I'll just have to be content with my old "05 GMC Duramax. Never did like Fords anyway. Just kidding guys - GREEN WITH ENVY

[Seann]

Nice truck but I will let you and others debug it.. New models always have problems the manufacture never thought of...

[geo]

Seann - After all the reviews, etc., I read on the 2011 Ford, I decided to take a chance and be a "debugger". That single reason is why I went against all "expert" recommendations and "trends of thought" - I purchased the longest extended warranty offered. How many things could go wrong with a new model? (Don't answer that, please.) But so far, nothing has appeared, but I'm within 1000 of the first oil change.

Festus2 - You-all up north might be interested in the "Cold Weather Instructions" included in the diesel manual. Not to far different than the older models, but different enough. Not knowing future travels, I did order a block warmer on this truck. Got a questioning look from the dealer when I asked for this option. North Texas doesn't have any parking areas with plug-ins.

Ron

[Festus2]

Ron:
We live in the "BANANA BELT" of Canada (about 3 hrs north of Seattle on the coast) and may have a couple of weeks of sub-zero (Celsius) temps in a winter. On those occasions, I usually plug the truck's block heater in but for almost all of the winter, we get far more rain than snow and freezing temperatures.
Thanks for the reminder about the instructions in the Manual.

[antiqfreq]

Our truck is just at 129,000 miles now and we drive it ALOT since we have been fulltiming for 10 months now.

Changing the oil every 5000 miles comes often now!

She's an 03' but it runs fine..........just gotta start looking for new tires now, but that will be my next post.



Jo

[Courtland]

I will throw in my 2 cents on this, the new 2011 Ford Diesels are awsome! I have had a V10, 7.3 and a 6.0 and now a 6.7. My new 2011 is the best one I have owned yet. It has plenty of power for towing and has all the comforts of a high end car. I have 3500 miles and the DEF warning says I have another 200 miles, other than Ford not appearing to fill the DEF tank full I have no complaints.

[geo]

Courtland -

Yup, I suspected that Ford only fills the DEF half way. I see your awesome F350 is white. Get that DEF fluid filled very soon - read the manual as to what it will start doing to you to encourage you to fill! And these Ford dealers are new to this DEF stuff - tell them to wash the fill area down with cool water and wipe with a soft cloth if they even think they spilled a drop! If they don't, you will see white crystals on a white truck!

Ron

[geo]

Just so everyone will know - soon all diesel pickups will have DEF fluid tanks and systems. Even the new big 18-wheeler rigs will have it. I understand there are some stations (Flying J?) that have installed DEF pumps along side the diesel pumps.

The CC LWB 4x4 2011 F350 has about an 8 gallon DEF tank. If you register on the Ford Owners website, they send out a free DEF fill-up coupon. I think that is to compensate for the half-filled DEF tank you will get when the truck is delivered! The coupon is good for the Ford dealer to fill the tank (and you to gripe at them to wash off the spill). It is not good to buy the $11/gallon bottle of DEF from the Parts desk. If you read the "How To Fill" in the Ford Diesel manual, you might quickly decide to let someone else handle the ammonia mixture. From what I understand, the Ford DEF is supposed to come in one gallon and five gallon bottles for DIY. The fill tube has to be in the bottle a certain way and in the tank a certain way. Hold the bottle upside down in a certain way . . . and if you ever took Chemistry class or used an ammonia fertilizer solution (much stronger than cleaning solutions!), think about that bottle of ammonia that's right next to your eyes and nose! For us old Texas boys, we remember the anhydrous ammonia tank truck that fell off the bridge above the Southwest Freeway in Houston back in 1976. Gives you a whole new respect for ammonia trucks and ammonia mixture bottles! I'm sure that other new diesel trucks of other brands will be similar.

[Jim W]

As of today the 6.7L Cummins engine in the Dodge pick-up truck does not require UREA Diesel Fluid. This engine has meet the 2010 EPA emission rules since the engine introduction in Jan 2007. This may change when the new diesel emission rules take effect in 2012, but from what I have read Cummins thinks the engine will meet this without the use of Urea.
The Cab and Chassis trucks of Dodge do require UREA, because of there duty cycle which is different then that of the pick-up truck.
The EPA does not require the use of UREA in the emission system to meet the emission rules. This is just one way that some manufactures choose to meet the emission rules. Another way is what Cummins has done to meet them with out the added expense of adding UREA every 5,000 to 7,500 miles to a Urea tank on a pick-up truck.
This is an added cost and must be considered in the purchase of a diesel engine pick-up truck. I choose a Cummins since I do not need this added expense.
Jim

[geo]

Jim W -

I had heard that Cummins was going to require DEF, but I had not heard that it was only on the larger trucks. That is good if they can adhere to the 2012 emmision standards! It will save some money. Personally, I had a '99 Dodge Dakota before the Ford and fiver, but the way Dodge handled their dealers in north Texas turned me off to Dodge at this time.

But I give a hearty thumbs-up to Cummins for their design!

Ron

[dsniper22]

Cummins hasn't bumped their truck up to nearly 400hp yet. Once they start trying to compete with the other 2, you will see a change. Personally I would take the urea injection over a particulate filter and regen system anyday. The amount of fuel that those regen systems burn everytime they cycle is appalling. How exactly does it help the enviroment when the exhaust is slightly cleaner but you are consuming nearly double the fuel??? Who wants to buy a $60,000 diesel truck that gets 13mpg empty. If these newer urea injection trucks do attain the 20mpg that they claim then it is worth ever penny in my opinion. I don't run either of my diesels with stock exhausts and doubt I ever will, but I might consider it if these new diesels hold up to their hype. Personally I would like to see propane introduced for a cleaner burn + modest power increase(way cheaper than urea), but doubt any of the big 3 will ever do it because it would be too easy to play with and the warranty claims would come rolling in.

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by dsniper22

Cummins hasn't bumped their truck up to nearly 400hp yet. Once they start trying to compete with the other 2, you will see a change. Personally I would take the urea injection over a particulate filter and regen system anyday. The amount of fuel that those regen systems burn everytime they cycle is appalling. How exactly does it help the enviroment when the exhaust is slightly cleaner but you are consuming nearly double the fuel??? Who wants to buy a $60,000 diesel truck that gets 13mpg empty. If these newer urea injection trucks do attain the 20mpg that they claim then it is worth ever penny in my opinion. I don't run either of my diesels with stock exhausts and doubt I ever will, but I might consider it if these new diesels hold up to their hype. Personally I would like to see propane introduced for a cleaner burn + modest power increase(way cheaper than urea), but doubt any of the big 3 will ever do it because it would be too easy to play with and the warranty claims would come rolling in.

I do not normally get into a discussion on what trucks are better. But when you quote fuel mileage as 20 MPG in the new 2011 Ford and GMC trucks. I have to ask where did you get this information from.

Marketing B/S 101?

Per "Motor Trend" fuel economy loop test on the 2011 Ford VS 2010 Dodge Pick-up trucks. The Ford ran a 16.6 MPG and the Doge ran a 16.4 MPG, Chevy/GMC were not available for testing yet. These were both Crew Cab trucks, SRW, Standard Beds top of the line models. Ford does not offer a stick transmission, only an auto trans. Dodge does offer both a stick and an auto with their trucks. "O" by the way the FORD cost $12,000 more than the Dodge, and you still have to spend between $11.00 to $18.00 a gallon for UREA, every 7,500 miles.

All three trucks will have an EGR system, Nox Filter, a catalyst along with a DPF exhaust filter to meet the emissions.

My other question is were is this HP and torque generated, at what RPMS? Will you really be able to use this HP and Torque? Maybe if you TOW your 14,000 LB camper at 80+ MPH. With your SRW truck you will be able to use it.
Jim.

[dsniper22]

After some further reading I now see that they are going to keep the filter/regen system but with the urea it is going to cycle significantly less. A couple of GM techs that I know were under the impression that the old system was going to be ditched in light of the newer technology. A couple reviews I have read on the new diesels said that customers were acheiving 680mile on 36 gallons. 18.88 MPG is pretty damn good and very close to some of the earlier estimates of these trucks attaining 20mpg. Under the right conditions with the right driver I have no doubt that these trucks will hit those goals. I'm not sure where the duramax hits peak torque but the power stroke posted peak torque at 1600rpm. I don't know about you but I know I hit 1600rpm well before 80mph.

[tampacamper]

I dont no about the decline. I just ordered a 2011 GMC 2500HD crewcab short box 4x4 dura max.