"Payloads"

[Essvar]

Ok, so this is an insight thread. The collective here must have over a million miles towing RV's so.....



We all know, you can't change the stickers on your door. BUT... where do those numbers come from? The magical 10,000lbs... It must have to do with DOT and registration because it never adds up to the GVAR (axle ratings) If I'm wrong please educate me. A heavy truck must stay under that 10,000lbs so obviously the payload is greatly reduced.



As for the tire sticker... can't we just erase that as soon as we change from the OEM tire?


Speaking for 5th wheels only here... exceeding rated payloads can cause damage to your truck, differentials, wheel studs... a host of things.... has anyone heard of catastrophic failure? Snapped axle or something of that nature?







And lastly... in the millions of miles.. has anyone here been pulled over and weighed?



Personally, I've been pulled over 2x towing trailers. Once was in WA because I was towing a flatbed gooseneck with rated capacity of 20k and in WA you must be licensed for the trailers rating, not what it actually weighs. Never pulled over towing an RV.

[Javi]

Personally, no but I am fully aware of the laws and so avoid the issue

Have I personally witnessed the act... yes..

I was in management at a facility which allowed the Texas DPS to utilize its scales for a weights and measures enforcement . And yes on several occasions I personally witnessed both travel trailers and 5th wheels being weighed, and on more than one occasion the trailer being unhitched and parked on our lot

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by Javi

Personally, no but I am fully aware of the laws and so avoid the issue

Have I personally witnessed the act... yes..

I was in management at a facility which allowed the Texas DPS to utilize its scales for a weights and measures enforcement . And yes on several occasions I personally witnessed both travel trailers and 5th wheels being weighed, and on more than one occasion the trailer being unhitched and parked on our lot

Thank you for letting me know that it actually does happen, out here on the West Coast I've NEVER once seen a RV pulled over... even when they should have been.

[chuckster57]

Happened to a customer bringing his fiver in for service. He had to disconnect and leave his trailer on the side of the road. In his case he didn’t have the proper endorsement on his license. Wife’s sisters SIL watched a trailer get confiscated for being over weight as they were entering Pismo Beach, I hear it’s a weekly occurrence.

[sourdough]

I know the laws so abide by them as well so, no, I've never been pulled over. Have I seen an RV pulled over and weighed....absolutely. Have I seen the trooper make the owner leave that RV about 50 miles out in the middle of nowhere? Yep. I don't need nor want that.

The laws on weights are there and unambiguous. You just follow them and you won't have an issue. They are there for a reason and no, when you changed tire sizes you didn't change anything about your weights, you simply put a tire size on there that wasn't approved/spec'd by the manufacturer for your vehicle....maybe even exceeded the specs for your wheel??

Your gvw is a combination of a lot of things, not just your axle ratings, or tire ratings...or the phase of the moon. You can't change it by doing the things mentioned.

Yes, of course I've seen tow trucks that have lost transmissions, ring and pinions etc. from towing too heavy....that's what will happen. Had a buddy that towed a mid sized Layton RV with a F150 and 460. Think he went thru 3 trannys.....and learned to hate AAMCO transmission places.

Depending on the truck there can be a 10k gvw limiting factor. It's there, it's the law but it's not the end of the world. If your situation/RV doesn't fit that size truck get a bigger one as I did.

The easy way is to read and follow the law. When a person bumps up against numbers that their rig exceeds, fix it legally by more truck or less load vs trying to find reasons/excuses to try to skirt the law and think they're OK.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by sourdough

They are there for a reason and no, when you changed tire sizes you didn't change anything about your weights, you simply put a tire size on there that wasn't approved/spec'd by the manufacturer for your vehicle....maybe even exceeded the specs for your wheel??

Depending on the truck there can be a 10k gvw limiting factor. It's there, it's the law but it's not the end of the world. If your situation/RV doesn't fit that size truck get a bigger one as I did..

I didn't mean tire size... but any change from the OEM tire negates the sticker.. (read change tire load rating not size)


I've had big trucks, I've had small trucks... I've towed with all of them. IMHO the heavier the truck the better...

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

Happened to a customer bringing his fiver in for service. He had to disconnect and leave his trailer on the side of the road. In his case he didn’t have the proper endorsement on his license. Wife’s sisters SIL watched a trailer get confiscated for being over weight as they were entering Pismo Beach, I hear it’s a weekly occurrence.

Whoa... 15k? or less on a 5th wheel...


Types of Driver’s Licenses in California


Class A:

Any combination of vehicles, if any vehicle being towed has a GVW (gross vehicle weight) rating of more than 10,000 lbs.; any vehicle towing more than 1 vehicle; any trailer bus; any vehicle under Class B or Class C.
Class B:

Any single vehicle with a GVW rating of more than 26,000 lbs.; any single vehicle with 3 or more axles, except any single 3-axle vehicle weighing less than 6,000 lbs.; any bus except a trailer bus; any farm labor vehicle; any 3 or more axle vehicle or vehicle with a GVW rating of more 26,000 lbs. towing another vehicle with a GVW rating of 10,000 lbs. or less; any motor home over 40 feet in length; any vehicle covered under Class C.
Class C:

Any 2-axle vehicle with a GVW rating of 26,000 lbs. or less, including when such vehicle is towing a trailer with a GVW rating of 10,000 lbs. or less; any 3-axle vehicle weighing 6,000 lbs. or less; any 2-axle vehicle weighing 4,000 lbs. or more unladen when towing a trailer not exceeding 10,000 lbs. GVW rating; any motor home of 40 feet in length or less; any 5th wheel trailer under 10,000 lbs. if not for hire or under 15,000 lbs. with endorsement; or vehicle towing another vehicle with a GVW rating of 10,000 lbs. or less

[chuckster57]

In Ca, if you tow fiver that has a GVWR over 10,001 but under 15,000 pounds you need a travel trailer endorsement. It’s a written test no driving test. If your fiver is 15001 or more you need a non commercial “commercial” license. My fiver in dug is 10240 GVWR so I’m in the endorsement needed class.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

In Ca, if you tow fiver that has a GVWR over 10,001 but under 15,000 pounds you need a travel trailer endorsement. It’s a written test no driving test. If your fiver is 15001 or more you need a non commercial “commercial” license. My fiver in dug is 10240 GVWR so I’m in the endorsement needed class.

Thank you, this is why I started this thread. Information gathering... IMHO there should be a driving test and endorsement on anyone who pulls a 35' + trailer.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Thank you, this is why I started this thread. Information gathering... IMHO there should be a driving test and endorsement on anyone who pulls a 35' + trailer.

Should it be length or weight? I say weight is more important. Crazy thing out here with a class C license ( what any driver should have) you can drive a class A motorhome diesel pusher with air brakes. I worked at a dealership that sold Tiffen and some of those were 23,000 pounds DRY.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

Should it be length or weight? I say weight is more important. Crazy thing out here with a class C license ( what any driver should have) you can drive a class A motorhome diesel pusher with air brakes. I worked at a dealership that sold Tiffen and some of those were 23,000 pounds DRY.

Good question... I'd say its far easier to 'drive' a Class A diesel pusher than it is to tow a 35+ 5th wheel. But both can cause a lot of damage without a skilled operator.



With that in mind... how many RV industry lobbyists are out there making sure the laws aren't changed to inhibit sales?

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Good question... I'd say its far easier to 'drive' a Class A diesel pusher than it is to tow a 35+ 5th wheel. But both can cause a lot of damage without a skilled operator.



With that in mind... how many RV industry lobbyists are out there making sure the laws aren't changed to inhibit sales?

I have no idea. Having driven a 40’ class A and having towed a 36’ fiver across the country, personally I’ll take the truck and trailer, too much blind spot for my liking even with cameras. Until you’ve actually driven both it’s hard to explain how much different they are.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I have no idea. Having driven a 40’ class A and having towed a 36’ fiver across the country, personally I’ll take the truck and trailer, too much blind spot for my liking even with cameras. Until you’ve actually driven both it’s hard to explain how much different they are.

I’ve done both as well… and IMHO neither should be done without a driving test…. But I also think drivers over 65 should be tested yearly so I’m “that guy”

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I have no idea. Having driven a 40’ class A and having towed a 36’ fiver across the country, personally I’ll take the truck and trailer, too much blind spot for my liking even with cameras. Until you’ve actually driven both it’s hard to explain how much different they are.

x10 I couldn't agree more. I had driven vehicles similar to a big Class A and it was my dream to have one when we retired. I wanted a nice one and after making my appt. to drive it...I did. I spent an hour or more driving it and playing like "we're traveling in this". I absolutely hated it. Blind is the word. All the cameras? Distractions. Brought it back and told DW I was not driving the thing anywhere and certainly wasn't plopping down 450k to feel endangered. I'll take a good truck and whatever size trailer any day.

[Canonman]

I agree with the idea that the 10,000 pound number is "magical" so as to stay within the Light Truck Class 2B specs. Depending on the state there can be registration and licensing restrictive requirements for moving up to the Class 3 category.
In my specific case, there is only one minor difference, the rear spring pack, in the build requirements between my Ram 2500 and a Ram 3500 of the same year. This only adds 200 pounds to the the rear axle GAWR (6,000-6,200) but adds about 1,000 pounds to the payload rating (2160-3010).
The GCWR of my 2500 is 20,000 pounds while the 3500 is 21,000. These numbers seem pretty "round" and I suspect somewhat conservative.
I feel very safe pulling our midsize Cougar with our 2500 upgraded with LRE tires and added overload spring. It doesn't change the manufacturer's spec or the maximum load ratings for the vehicle but I do believe it does give us a little more headroom for our towing requirements.
CLASS 1
GVWR: 0 to 6,000 pounds
Model Example/s: Ford Ranger
CLASS 2 (2A & 2B)
GVWR: 6,001 to 10,000 pounds
Model Example/s: See below.
Important Note: Class 2 is subdivided into 2A (6,001-8,500 pounds) and 2B (8,501-10,000 pounds). Examples of a Class 2A truck include the Ford F-150, RAM 1500, and Chevrolet 1500, while the Chevy Silverado 2500, RAM 2500, and Ford F-250 are Class 2B.
CLASS 3
GVWR: 10,001 to 14,000 pounds
Model Example/s: RAM 3500, Chevy Silverado 3500, Ford F-350, and Ford F-450
CLASS 4
GVWR: 14,001 to 16,000 pounds
Model Example/s: RAM 4500, Ford F-450 (chassis cab)

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by Canonman

I agree with the idea that the 10,000 pound number is "magical" so as to stay within the Light Truck Class 2B specs. Depending on the state there can be registration and licensing restrictive requirements for moving up to the Class 3 category.
In my specific case, there is only one minor difference, the rear spring pack, in the build requirements between my Ram 2500 and a Ram 3500 of the same year. This only adds 200 pounds to the the rear axle GAWR (6,000-6,200) but adds about 1,000 pounds to the payload rating (2160-3010).
The GCWR of my 2500 is 20,000 pounds while the 3500 is 21,000. These numbers seem pretty "round" and I suspect somewhat conservative.
I feel very safe pulling our midsize Cougar with our 2500 upgraded with LRE tires and added overload spring. It doesn't change the manufacturer's spec or the maximum load ratings for the vehicle but I do believe it does give us a little more headroom for our towing requirements.
CLASS 1
GVWR: 0 to 6,000 pounds
Model Example/s: Ford Ranger
CLASS 2 (2A & 2B)
GVWR: 6,001 to 10,000 pounds
Model Example/s: See below.
Important Note: Class 2 is subdivided into 2A (6,001-8,500 pounds) and 2B (8,501-10,000 pounds). Examples of a Class 2A truck include the Ford F-150, RAM 1500, and Chevrolet 1500, while the Chevy Silverado 2500, RAM 2500, and Ford F-250 are Class 2B.
CLASS 3
GVWR: 10,001 to 14,000 pounds
Model Example/s: RAM 3500, Chevy Silverado 3500, Ford F-350, and Ford F-450
CLASS 4
GVWR: 14,001 to 16,000 pounds
Model Example/s: RAM 4500, Ford F-450 (chassis cab)

Yes, Dodge did some things to make sure the 2500 fit into the 10,000 category. Rear suspension is the only difference between 2500 and 3500. (Other than the ability to get the Asin trans)

But as others noted, the sticker is the sticker. It appears that it doesn’t matter what your TV can actually handle but more of what the government has regulated ratings to be…

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Yes, Dodge did some things to make sure the 2500 fit into the 10,000 category. Rear suspension is the only difference between 2500 and 3500. (Other than the ability to get the Asin trans)

But as others noted, the sticker is the sticker. It appears that it doesn’t matter what your TV can actually handle but more of what the government has regulated ratings to be…

The sticker IS the sticker. When they pull you over you can rest assured that is what the guy with the scale will look at. "What your truck can handle" can vary by thousands of pounds when all you have are the subjective opinions of the owners and/or others ergo...the sticker.

The only sticking point I continually read about here and on other forums is the "mandated" 10k gvw. It doesn't matter WHY it's there the buyer bought it so it IS there. The simple solution is to never buy it in the first place and get that 1 ton.....and maybe an 11 - 11.4k gvw instead. If someone is that close on weight a 3/4 should not have been in consideration.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Essvar

Yes, Dodge did some things to make sure the 2500 fit into the 10,000 category. Rear suspension is the only difference between 2500 and 3500. (Other than the ability to get the Asin trans)

But as others noted, the sticker is the sticker. It appears that it doesn’t matter what your TV can actually handle but more of what the government has regulated ratings to be…

While Dodge was very conservative with GVWR up to 2013/2014 for 3500’s and 2500’s.
Our 2001 Ram 2500 CTD with Camper, Tow, and optional LT 265/75-16 tires still only had a 8,800# GVWR. The Camper Package gave it 3500 rear springs, the optional tires were rated 3,415# ea. compared to the OEM 245/75-16 at 3,042# ea. All of this resulted in no change to the GVWR.

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The sticker IS the sticker. When they pull you over you can rest assured that is what the guy with the scale will look at. "What your truck can handle" can vary by thousands of pounds when all you have are the subjective opinions of the owners and/or others ergo...the sticker.

The only sticking point I continually read about here and on other forums is the "mandated" 10k gvw. It doesn't matter WHY it's there the buyer bought it so it IS there. The simple solution is to never buy it in the first place and get that 1 ton.....and maybe an 11 - 11.4k gvw instead. If someone is that close on weight a 3/4 should not have been in consideration.

Sticker is the sticker. But… doesn’t is seem a bit silly that the sticker doesn’t actually reflect the vehicle but only how it can comply with DOT ratings?

[Essvar]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

While Dodge was very conservative with GVWR up to 2013/2014 for 3500’s and 2500’s.
Our 2001 Ram 2500 CTD with Camper, Tow, and optional LT 265/75-16 tires still only had a 8,800# GVWR. The Camper Package gave it 3500 rear springs, the optional tires were rated 3,415# ea. compared to the OEM 245/75-16 at 3,042# ea. All of this resulted in no change to the GVWR.

That’s because the GVRW is determined by the DOT. The sticker is the sticker. 10,000 magical number