Sanity check solar upgrade: 2020 cougar 29 MBS

[alku1]

Hey folks, soon we will take over our 2020 cougar with the solar prep package. It has the stock battery and no solar upgrades were done by the previous owner.
We have a special use case, since we are buying the rig specifically for a 7-8 month cross country roadtrip this summer. We are a family of 4 and would love to spend a lot of times in Parks, boondocking, harvest hosts but also regular RV parks for doing the occasional laundry ;-)
Besides replacing the stock tires I'm planning to install some kind of solar setup to ensure we can survive a bunch of days until the ****ter is full

Since we don't have the rig yet, I can't really test our consumption. For us the focus is on 12V supply mostly. Since besides charging the laptop once in a while its mostly about powering the 12V RV supply (heater, fridge, phones, lights, camera etc...). Since we would like to boondock and stay in NP I figured a generator is not really a good solution for us.
I'm aware of the different possibilities in terms of battery technology. If it's about lifetime value I would probably go straight to Lithium. But since we will be selling the RV in fall this year I doubt that potential buyers really pay for the premium. Im aware that nobody here will be able to tell me the exact Ahs/Wp the solar setup needs to provide, but Im molre aiming at a general sanity check whether this goes in the right direction. That brings me to my first question:

• Battery: Should I just go for 2 or even 4 golfcart batteries since they seem to be the most cost efficient? Technically, lifetime is not an issue and so we might go beyond the 50% SOC to have more usable capacity.
  Furthermore, Lithium would potentially require an upgrade of the converter and a DC-DC charger for the truck connection, which are extra costs which are likely not increasing the resale value to the same extend.
• Panels: I'm really torn between two options: Mounting 200-300W panels to the roof (this part I wouldn't want to do myself) or using a 200W solar suitcase (potentially DIY). The downside of the roof mount is that I have to drill into the roof or hire someone to do that and the efficiency is lower. Also contradicts parking in the shade.
  The Suitcase option has better efficiency but is quite bulky to store and potentially might get stolen during our day trips.
  Or should I go for a combination of both?
• Inverter: I believe we don't need one since the only crucial appliances would be the laptop which we could charge in the truck once in a while. Anything I might be missing?
• Converter: I didn't manage to find out whether Keystone puts in single or multistage converters. Where could I find that out?
  I believe if it's a single stage than it would be worth to upgrade in any case, correct?
• Is there anything else I should get besides above components plus a battery monitor/shunt?

Thank you!

[GHen]

First, I just tell you what I have.
Four 6v golf cart batteries, wish I had 6 or lithium.
300w solar on the roof, wish I had 400w.
3000w inverter, wish I had a 2000w.
2000w Gen for those cloudy days or in the trees.


If you want to go lithium, just get a lithium charger and disconnect the old one, leave it in place.
All of this stuff can be removed before selling, or offer it as a premium if they want it., if not, pull it out.

The charger and inverter can be mounted on a board making removal easy.

[RJS]

I don't own one of these car generators but this product could possibly help you meet your power needs.

https://www.cargenerator.com/

You could recharge your trailer batteries using the truck engine. Looks like they have 4 models with run-Watts/starting-Watts as follows:
1000/2000, 1500/3000, 2000/4000 and 3000/6000

You don't have to mess with the trailer that you have to sell, and would be a pretty cool generator to have for emergency use. The huge run time and basically no maintenance other then what you would normally do on the truck is a big plus over a separate gas/propane generator and having to bring along it's fuel supply.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by RJS

I don't own one of these car generators but this product could possibly help you meet your power needs.

https://www.cargenerator.com/

You could recharge your trailer batteries using the truck engine. Looks like they have 4 models with run-Watts/starting-Watts as follows:
1000/2000, 1500/3000, 2000/4000 and 3000/6000

You don't have to mess with the trailer that you have to sell, and would be a pretty cool generator to have for emergency use. The huge run time and basically no maintenance other then what you would normally do on the truck is a big plus over a separate gas/propane generator and having to bring along it's fuel supply.

Sounds to me like a great way to damage your vehichle. That's not a generator, it's an inverter powered by the vehicle electrical system. Hours of idling will ruin an engine unless you have a system to make it idle at a higher rpm. Personally, I wouldn't want the alternator on my truck running for hours on end cranking out high amperage and the subsequent thermal stresses with limited airflow. YMMV

[GHen]

Not a bad idea for a general use power pack especially if you have an electric vehicle or hybrid, I just don’t see it as good option for rv power. Maybe if it could be plugged in during highway speeds.

But, I agree, lots of negatives for Boondocking . The fuel consumption would be very high, note they use a compact sedan with a 2liter motor, not a trailer tow vehicle for their fuel saving statement. Many vehicles don’t put out much power at low rpm’s, barely enough to keep its own system charged. It would take hours of damaging idling to charge it up and they are way more expensive than just a generator that is designed for that purpose.

Many motor homes actually have a second alternator just to charge up the coach batteries while driving, because one is just not enough.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by GHen

Not a bad idea for a general use power pack especially if you have an electric vehicle or hybrid, I just don’t see it as good option for rv power. Maybe if it could be plugged in during highway speeds.

But, I agree, lots of negatives for Boondocking . The fuel consumption would be very high, note they use a compact sedan with a 2liter motor, not a trailer tow vehicle for their fuel saving statement. Many vehicles don’t put out much power at low rpm’s, barely enough to keep its own system charged. It would take hours of damaging idling to charge it up and they are way more expensive than just a generator that is designed for that purpose.

Many motor homes actually have a second alternator just to charge up the coach batteries while driving, because one is just not enough.

Totally agree. Most diesel trucks have a dual alternator option. I don’t buy the idea that an ideling 300+ hp engine is more economical than a properly sized `engine in a genset. As for durability, all one has to do is take a look around the parking lot of any decent diesel repair shop. They are typically filled with abulances, fire dept light trucks, traffic control trucks, etc. that typically spend most of their operating time idling.

Alternators on vehichles lsuch as cars & light trucks are designed to provide high amperage output for a short duration to recharge the starting battery. That's how starting batteries operate. An alternator designed for constant high amperage output are designed differently with more robust components (larger wire sized armetures, better magnet composition, heavy duty bearings, etc.) as well as greater heat dissipation/airflow.

[RJS]

We seem to be getting a bunch of advice from folks that do not have the Car Generator product, and I have to be a bit skeptical. That said I know concerns were raised that may or may not be valid for your situation.

flybouy(Marshall), The Car Generator is the company or site name and I never said the product was a generator. The web site clearly shows what the product is if you looked at it. They probably could have used Car Inverter for the company or site name, but marketing wise I think more people can relate to a "Generator". They are using generator name on the stand alone Solar panel battery devices calling them Solar Generators.

Under the conditions or requirements described "mostly about powering the 12V RV supply (heater, fridge, phones, lights, camera etc...)" in between staying at places that do have power I would believe it would not cause any issues with a tow vehicle of the size needed to pull a Cougar 29MBS which would be a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. Many of those trucks also have dual generators on their electrical system which are a requirement for the larger car generator product. I guess you could go old school and use jumper cables to the trailer to recharge the batteries if you think about it. Just have to know what you are doing.

The 1000/2000 model would be too small for his intended use, but getting the 1500/3000 or probably the 2000/4000 would be best to shorten the charge and vehicle run time to top off the batteries in between his stay at sites that did have power.

Also not sure it would use that much fuel as Ghen (Glen) stated with no practical knowledge. Perhaps his tow vehicle has a AUX tank and that is not a concern, or that he will be boondocking at places where fuel is readily available.

Perhaps someone that actually has one of the units could add some real experience to the conversation here.

OR

From what I see on the car generator review site from folks that do own these products that there are many people who are very happy using it for boondocking. https://www.cargenerator.com/pages/reviews

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by RJS

We seem to be getting a bunch of advice from folks that do not have the Car Generator product, and I have to be a bit skeptical. That said I know concerns were raised that may or may not be valid for your situation.

flybouy(Marshall), The Car Generator is the company or site name and I never said the product was a generator. The web site clearly shows what the product is if you looked at it. They probably could have used Car Inverter for the company or site name, but marketing wise I think more people can relate to a "Generator". They are using generator name on the stand alone Solar panel battery devices calling them Solar Generators.

Under the conditions or requirements described "mostly about powering the 12V RV supply (heater, fridge, phones, lights, camera etc...)" in between staying at places that do have power I would believe it would not cause any issues with a tow vehicle of the size needed to pull a Cougar 29MBS which would be a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. Many of those trucks also have dual generators on their electrical system which are a requirement for the larger car generator product. I guess you could go old school and use jumper cables to the trailer to recharge the batteries if you think about it. Just have to know what you are doing.

The 1000/2000 model would be too small for his intended use, but getting the 1500/3000 or probably the 2000/4000 would be best to shorten the charge and vehicle run time to top off the batteries in between his stay at sites that did have power.

Also not sure it would use that much fuel as Ghen (Glen) stated with no practical knowledge. Perhaps his tow vehicle has a AUX tank and that is not a concern, or that he will be boondocking at places where fuel is readily available.

Perhaps someone that actually has one of the units could add some real experience to the conversation here.

OR

From what I see on the car generator review site from folks that do own these products that there are many people who are very happy using it for boondocking. https://www.cargenerator.com/pages/reviews

If you prefer to beleive that site over some very experienced folks using commonsense then I suggest you try one out and let us know how it works out for you. Actually finding anyone here that has first hand experience is unlikely. I don’t need to actually own/use a product to evaluate it. I've walked past many, many street vendors selling fake Rolex watches in Manhattan, NY and hawkers in malls selling everything from knife sets to "healing crystals ".

It's your money, your choice but if you are going to defend the product without "first hand" experience then I think it's unfair to judge someone proffering a critical view of the product. JMHO

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by alku1

Hey folks, soon we will take over our 2020 cougar with the solar prep package. It has the stock battery and no solar upgrades were done by the previous owner.
We have a special use case, since we are buying the rig specifically for a 7-8 month cross country roadtrip this summer. We are a family of 4 and would love to spend a lot of times in Parks, boondocking, harvest hosts but also regular RV parks for doing the occasional laundry ;-)
Besides replacing the stock tires I'm planning to install some kind of solar setup to ensure we can survive a bunch of days until the ****ter is full

Since we don't have the rig yet, I can't really test our consumption. For us the focus is on 12V supply mostly. Since besides charging the laptop once in a while its mostly about powering the 12V RV supply (heater, fridge, phones, lights, camera etc...). Since we would like to boondock and stay in NP I figured a generator is not really a good solution for us.
I'm aware of the different possibilities in terms of battery technology. If it's about lifetime value I would probably go straight to Lithium. But since we will be selling the RV in fall this year I doubt that potential buyers really pay for the premium. Im aware that nobody here will be able to tell me the exact Ahs/Wp the solar setup needs to provide, but Im molre aiming at a general sanity check whether this goes in the right direction. That brings me to my first question:

• Battery: Should I just go for 2 or even 4 golfcart batteries since they seem to be the most cost efficient? Technically, lifetime is not an issue and so we might go beyond the 50% SOC to have more usable capacity.
  Furthermore, Lithium would potentially require an upgrade of the converter and a DC-DC charger for the truck connection, which are extra costs which are likely not increasing the resale value to the same extend.
• Panels: I'm really torn between two options: Mounting 200-300W panels to the roof (this part I wouldn't want to do myself) or using a 200W solar suitcase (potentially DIY). The downside of the roof mount is that I have to drill into the roof or hire someone to do that and the efficiency is lower. Also contradicts parking in the shade.
  The Suitcase option has better efficiency but is quite bulky to store and potentially might get stolen during our day trips.
  Or should I go for a combination of both?
• Inverter: I believe we don't need one since the only crucial appliances would be the laptop which we could charge in the truck once in a while. Anything I might be missing?
• Converter: I didn't manage to find out whether Keystone puts in single or multistage converters. Where could I find that out?
  I believe if it's a single stage than it would be worth to upgrade in any case, correct?
• Is there anything else I should get besides above components plus a battery monitor/shunt?

Thank you!

Quite honestly purchasing a good quiet generator with a couple 6 volt GC batteries would be the least expensive route. Once you've finished your trip the generator could be very easily sold for what you gave for it. The 3500 watt generator at Harbor Freight has good reviews & less $$ than 1 Lithium battery
With a family of 4 youll be lucky if the black tank last more than 3 maybe 4 days depending on tank size & even less on the bath grey tank unless all a very good at quick showers using the shower head shut off.

[travelin texans]

One other bit of advice!
You didn't mention your tow vehicle? Just be aware that rv has a GVWR of 11000lbs which equals a 2300+lb pin weight + 100-200lb hitch weight + all the stuff a family of 4 inside the rv & truck makes that well beyond the weight limits of most all 1/2 pickups & close on a good many 3/4 tons regardless of the name on the rv.

[firestation12]

I debated with myself whether or not to try and post something that would help you with your plans to outfit your camper for 4. The last thing anyone on this forum is trying to do is berate an idea, BUT as a wise person once said, "If it's predictable, it's preventable". Many of those posting here, have a sense of "intuitive genius" that can predict with near certainty, the outcome of using a car or truck's power plant to charge 12 volt batteries long term (and just about any idea you want to have evaluated). By long term I mean while camped as opposed to charging while traveling. A 3500 watt generator or larger, is the correct tool for the application. The totality of experience you'll receive feedback from, amounts to hundreds of years.

I think you are painting yourself into a corner, by out of hand dismissing the use of a generator because you will be camped at national parks or boondocking. The fact is, without a generator, you will need to invest in a large array of solar panels, lithium batteries, inverter, solar charger, and a bunch of wiring, fuses, monitoring devices and more. Without investing in a high end solar system, you are going to be relegated to a generator and four 6 volt batteries to supply the needs of your 4 person family. Batteries other than lithium, require much much much (not a typo) longer charging cycles. Non lithium batteries have a lot of internal resistance and are limited in how quick you can return them to a fully charged state. You'll also need 120 volts to run the microwave oven occasionally and maybe a tv. Since you'll be using the generator to recharge the batteries (a lot....maybe 8-10 hours), an inverter may not be necessary. I hope you can appreciate blunt honest truth for what it is intended to do, helping you forge ahead in a positive direction. Best regards for your summer!

[alku1]

Thanks everyone for the multitude of replies.
I understand that some of you gravitate towards a generator and we will most probably have one small one as ultiamte backup. But since many NP where we want to go dont allow the usage we need something different.


I thought a lot about it and came to the conclusion that without a good solar setup we woudl miss the feel of independence and freedom which was one of the main drivers of the trip. While we will try to get as much money back selling it, I dont want to skimp now and change how the entire trip will feel (stressing over Generator hours or hookups).


I found this wonderful how-to for a 400W solar install (https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/th...ans-buses.html) and I think this will be the route to go. Probably also getting a used generator from craigslist or so.


Now the next questions are:
1) I read about no drill mounting kits and they do have solid reviews (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1) But I believe those only work with an TPO roof. Can anyone confirm my assumption that the 2020 Cougar half-ton 29MBS has a TPO roof?


2) Where can I find the roof layout of the RV online? How can I find out what size panels and how many my roof allows without being close to the RV itself?


3) If I cant/want use the no-drill option: Can I just screw anywhere in teh roof material or do I need to look for "studs"? If yes, how to I find them?


Thanks!

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by alku1

Thanks everyone for the multitude of replies.
I understand that some of you gravitate towards a generator and we will most probably have one small one as ultiamte backup. But since many NP where we want to go dont allow the usage we need something different.


I thought a lot about it and came to the conclusion that without a good solar setup we woudl miss the feel of independence and freedom which was one of the main drivers of the trip. While we will try to get as much money back selling it, I dont want to skimp now and change how the entire trip will feel (stressing over Generator hours or hookups).


I found this wonderful how-to for a 400W solar install (https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/th...ans-buses.html) and I think this will be the route to go. Probably also getting a used generator from craigslist or so.


Now the next questions are:
1) I read about no drill mounting kits and they do have solid reviews (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1) But I believe those only work with an TPO roof. Can anyone confirm my assumption that the 2020 Cougar half-ton 29MBS has a TPO roof?


2) Where can I find the roof layout of the RV online? How can I find out what size panels and how many my roof allows without being close to the RV itself?


3) If I cant/want use the no-drill option: Can I just screw anywhere in teh roof material or do I need to look for "studs"? If yes, how to I find them?


Thanks!

The (no screw) corner brackets you referenced are not for your roof. Read the descriptions, they are for aluminum, wood or other solid material surface that an adhesive can attach to. You will need to drill and screw something to your roof to mount panels. You probably won' find a "roof layout" simply because it is self evident where the structural cross members are located. Just looking at the roof, you'll see a tell tale sign of their presence under the roofing membrane.

The link to one of Will Prowse's many videos, falls in the realm of a training exercise to introduce one's self to building a starter solar system. Using 100 watt panels will quickly use up roof space without delivering a useful voltage output for charging the batteries. Typically a 100 watt panel will output 20-24 volts at peak exposure to direct sunlight. Until the voltage climbs above 13+ volts (which will only a be few hours out of the total available daylight), your batteries will not be charging. A single 400 watt panel outputs in the 45+ volt range and begins developing usable voltage shortly after sunrise. Check santansolar.com web page for some great prices on panels. I'd suggest at least 2 panels each producing 320+ watts for your system as a minimum. Installing panels in series, reduces the wire size connecting the panels to the solar charger.

Amazon has Chin 100 amp hour lithium batteries for $320 each. Prowse tested them and found them to be good, but they didn't have a built-in low temperature cutout. With a little know how, this deficit can be addressed. I would suggest at least three or more 100 AH batteries.
My best guess is you have acquired about 30% of the knowledge you'll need to do this project. More than the time and space this forum will be able to provide you. Measure twice, cut once as Grampa used to say. Good luck!

[Canonman]

Why not consider a "portable" suitcase type solar kit. We have 200w kit and use it all the time in NP and Forest Service campgrounds as well as other dry camp and boondock camping. Haven't needed the generator for the past several seasons. Yes, I bring it along, just haven't had to use it

[firestation12]

Originally Posted by Canonman

Why not consider a "portable" suitcase type solar kit. We have 200w kit and use it all the time in NP and Forest Service campgrounds as well as other dry camp and boondock camping. Haven't needed the generator for the past several seasons. Yes, I bring it along, just haven't had to use it

The OP has 4 persons using energy in his camper. Would he need more than 1 suitcase solar panel? It may be useful to know a bit more detail for the OP, to consider this option, such as battery AH capacity and type you have, as well as items that are drawing on your setup.

[alku1]

@Firestation:
Thanks for your input!

With regard to panel voltage. I assumed larger panels have simply more solar cells in series than smaller ones. So having 2x100W in series should lead to the same voltage profile than a 200W panel with the same silicum?!

Exactly the same Chins batteries I had in mind! But I dont think we need more than 200Ah. Remember, its a gas fridge and we dont plan on using TV microwave, since we dont have it at home either.



@Canonman: I had been going back and forth between roofmounted and suitcase. Im currently leanign towards doing a 300-400W roof install first since it doenst take up cargo space and I dont need to deploy anything for it to work.
However, the efficiency and the fact that I can leave the RV in teh shade and still get a solarcharge really appeals to me and so I have been thinking to may be just order a suitcase on the road once I figure out the roof mounte version does not deliver enough.

[P&DZ]

If you intend to sell the RV I would keep it simple. One or two 200w suitcases with a controller direct to 2 good 6v batteries will more than suffice. Look at Renogy products. We have been using this set up for several years and can boondocks for days with NO generator required. The advantage over mounting is you can position into the sun, and still have the RV in the shade. Never had a theft problem. Personally I hate camping next to someone who runs a generator 4+ hours a day so they can watch television or use a microwave.

[precab]

Originally Posted by alku1

Hey folks, soon we will take over our 2020 cougar with the solar prep package. It has the stock battery and no solar upgrades were done by the previous owner.
We have a special use case, since we are buying the rig specifically for a 7-8 month cross country roadtrip this summer. We are a family of 4 and would love to spend a lot of times in Parks, boondocking, harvest hosts but also regular RV parks for doing the occasional laundry ;-)
Besides replacing the stock tires I'm planning to install some kind of solar setup to ensure we can survive a bunch of days until the ****ter is full

Since we don't have the rig yet, I can't really test our consumption. For us the focus is on 12V supply mostly. Since besides charging the laptop once in a while its mostly about powering the 12V RV supply (heater, fridge, phones, lights, camera etc...). Since we would like to boondock and stay in NP I figured a generator is not really a good solution for us.
I'm aware of the different possibilities in terms of battery technology. If it's about lifetime value I would probably go straight to Lithium. But since we will be selling the RV in fall this year I doubt that potential buyers really pay for the premium. Im aware that nobody here will be able to tell me the exact Ahs/Wp the solar setup needs to provide, but Im molre aiming at a general sanity check whether this goes in the right direction. That brings me to my first question:

• Battery: Should I just go for 2 or even 4 golfcart batteries since they seem to be the most cost efficient? Technically, lifetime is not an issue and so we might go beyond the 50% SOC to have more usable capacity.
  Furthermore, Lithium would potentially require an upgrade of the converter and a DC-DC charger for the truck connection, which are extra costs which are likely not increasing the resale value to the same extend.
• Panels: I'm really torn between two options: Mounting 200-300W panels to the roof (this part I wouldn't want to do myself) or using a 200W solar suitcase (potentially DIY). The downside of the roof mount is that I have to drill into the roof or hire someone to do that and the efficiency is lower. Also contradicts parking in the shade.
  The Suitcase option has better efficiency but is quite bulky to store and potentially might get stolen during our day trips.
  Or should I go for a combination of both?
• Inverter: I believe we don't need one since the only crucial appliances would be the laptop which we could charge in the truck once in a while. Anything I might be missing?
• Converter: I didn't manage to find out whether Keystone puts in single or multistage converters. Where could I find that out?
  I believe if it's a single stage than it would be worth to upgrade in any case, correct?
• Is there anything else I should get besides above components plus a battery monitor/shunt?

Thank you!

Have you considered ordering an F150 with the power on board 7.2kw; it does solve quite a bit of power concerns or solar investments

[Stircrazy]

I have a 40 foot 5th wheel and for 6 of us if we don't use the inverter excessivly I never have to worry about power. what I have for a set up is four 235AH 6V batteries with 480 watts of solar. its almost good enough to keep my bar fridge pluged in all the time with the inverter but not quite. if I could start again I would go with two or three 325AH (or larger) 24V panels and a Mppt charge controler, instead of the 12V panels and the PWM controler I would also put two more 6V batteries in or go with lots of Li. but if you don't have an inverter and don't need one then I think four cheep 6v batteries, like costco's a MPPT charge controler and two 325watt 24V split cell panels would do you pretty good. if you hit a string of cloudy days and your batteries are getting down, book in a campground with power for a night or two to recharge and use the hookups for showers, dup tanks, fill water and some luxery for a day or two.