PLEASE Discuss Weights and Towing

[sourdough]

The situation I mentioned that started this thread was a brand new RV owner/tower, just retired "old guy" that had just sold his house and belongings to start what he and his wife envisioned as "the dream". Someone one(s) let him down. Probably both sales people and all those involved with either deal that knew what he was going to do....or maybe they didn't have a clue. Maybe he had the truck and decided to go with it because he had used all his money. Maybe someone told him it would be OK. I don't know those things yet as he is gone but will try to find out.

My request pertaining to talking about weights is primarily aimed at those that are new, they're coming on board very fast. Far too many don't know a thing about an RV, towing, tow vehicles or anything else. I will stop there and say that I think that is a failure of the new buyer/owner as that commitment should have a tremendous amount of due diligence performed before pulling the trigger but.... In the case of many I see I don't know if they even know HOW to use a computer, or search, or research. So then, here they are.

The sidebars about mods improving the towing ability, commercial vs operator license, added springs etc. are irrelevant. They have zero to do with trying to discuss towing/pulling/carrying capacities with a person that just got their first TRUCK. Maybe drove a Prius all their life and now sitting in a 1500 - a TRUCK; a behemoth compared to anything they've been in. No way it can't move the world - then there's reality - the weights.

For discussion purposes with someone new you have to have concrete numbers to point to, not a bunch of what if's. Those will be the numbers posted on the truck and trailer - simple for them, simple for me. You can then use concrete numbers to discuss their situation. They won't be scaled nor know what one is probably so you would have to use the generic calculations we always do to get in the ballpark. Start that train of thought going in their minds; at least they have been put on board. Maybe all they can afford are the LT tires, at least it's a start. I would never advocate adding a bunch of "add ons" to make them think they have a stronger truck and I would make sure they understood that just "adding" something to a truck not up to the task is only putting lipstick on a pig and could still lead to a failure of some kind.

I didn't start the thread so we could try to get into minutia and rehash the old saws about "all you gotta do is xyz" to make a Freightliner. If you want a Freightliner - buy one. This was an example of a situation that is going to start happening more and more frequently ultimately putting those owners, and those on the road, in more danger than they already are. Bottom line it's becoming more obvious every day that the new folks are coming full tilt and if we can help just one person avert a bad situation it doesn't hurt to try to help does it?

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Balvar24

Tow police, meet language police.


It's dangerous to tow more than your vehicle can handle.

But in reality, what can you do? When I see something I don't like and I can tell it's intentional, I try to stay away. Far, far away. I can't keep people from doing stupid things, but I can keep them from doing it to me.

As for salesmen, straight and unbiased salesmen are like the California Condor. We don't have them where I live.

If you want to be the "language police" (did you really mean grammer?) then good luck on any forum. It used to bother me, long, long time ago I let a proffesor in college convinced me to take his honors English classes. Now I make so many typos and gramatical errors it's embarrassing.

As for "staying away" I personally dislike the thought of promoting ignorance by just "standing by" uninvolved. I prefer to share information, particularly when it involves safety. I guess this was reinforced when I was teaching electrical courses as an adjunct faculty instructor in college. It was a mainly adult continuing education program for HVACR diploma. Many students were working as techs and some HVACR Company owners were in the course as well. It never ceased to amaze me how some of them didn't electrocute themselves.

So just because someone apperars well seasoned doesn't mean thay understand the limitations of a vehichles capability. Some people are receptive to that and some are not. I often read the "can't fix stupid" line but ignorance can be fixed by offering knowledge.

JMHO, YMMV

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The situation I mentioned that started this thread was a brand new RV owner/tower, just retired "old guy" that had just sold his house and belongings to start what he and his wife envisioned as "the dream". Someone one(s) let him down. Probably both sales people and all those involved with either deal that knew what he was going to do....or maybe they didn't have a clue. Maybe he had the truck and decided to go with it because he had used all his money. Maybe someone told him it would be OK. I don't know those things yet as he is gone but will try to find out.

My request pertaining to talking about weights is primarily aimed at those that are new, they're coming on board very fast. Far too many don't know a thing about an RV, towing, tow vehicles or anything else. I will stop there and say that I think that is a failure of the new buyer/owner as that commitment should have a tremendous amount of due diligence performed before pulling the trigger but.... In the case of many I see I don't know if they even know HOW to use a computer, or search, or research. So then, here they are.

The sidebars about mods improving the towing ability, commercial vs operator license, added springs etc. are irrelevant. They have zero to do with trying to discuss towing/pulling/carrying capacities with a person that just got their first TRUCK. Maybe drove a Prius all their life and now sitting in a 1500 - a TRUCK; a behemoth compared to anything they've been in. No way it can't move the world - then there's reality - the weights.

For discussion purposes with someone new you have to have concrete numbers to point to, not a bunch of what if's. Those will be the numbers posted on the truck and trailer - simple for them, simple for me. You can then use concrete numbers to discuss their situation. They won't be scaled nor know what one is probably so you would have to use the generic calculations we always do to get in the ballpark. Start that train of thought going in their minds; at least they have been put on board. Maybe all they can afford are the LT tires, at least it's a start. I would never advocate adding a bunch of "add ons" to make them think they have a stronger truck and I would make sure they understood that just "adding" something to a truck not up to the task is only putting lipstick on a pig and could still lead to a failure of some kind.

I didn't start the thread so we could try to get into minutia and rehash the old saws about "all you gotta do is xyz" to make a Freightliner. If you want a Freightliner - buy one. This was an example of a situation that is going to start happening more and more frequently ultimately putting those owners, and those on the road, in more danger than they already are. Bottom line it's becoming more obvious every day that the new folks are coming full tilt and if we can help just one person avert a bad situation it doesn't hurt to try to help does it?

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is all that new. I remember growing up everyone had 1/2 ton trucks, if they were really crazy they had a heavy half. They put 8’, 10’, 11’ in bed campers in the back and squatted them to the tires. Then hooked the boat behind. In Wisconsin, if you have farm plates (we did) you were unrestricted. I remember loading all kinds of stuff in the back. It seems only maybe in the last 15-20 years that people are starting to buy bigger trucks, but many that are retiring and buying a truck/RV for the first time, grew up in the 70s and 80s, a half ton did everything!

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Unfortunately, I don’t think this is all that new. I remember growing up everyone had 1/2 ton trucks, if they were really crazy they had a heavy half. They put 8’, 10’, 11’ in bed campers in the back and squatted them to the tires. Then hooked the boat behind. In Wisconsin, if you have farm plates (we did) you were unrestricted. I remember loading all kinds of stuff in the back. It seems only maybe in the last 15-20 years that people are starting to buy bigger trucks, but many that are retiring and buying a truck/RV for the first time, grew up in the 70s and 80s, a half ton did everything!

Ignorance of weights and failing to realize their importance is not new at all.
When I was growing up "back when" a pickup was a novelty; if the bed could take it and the tires didn't blow you were good - you had a "truck". Lord knows I did. On the farm the object was to get the job done; weights, that just wasn't a thought. The "big" trucks were in the oilfield but they were semis, not 250/350/450 trucks. My first full size RV was on a 1/2 ton and will assure you what it weighed vs what that F150 could carry was the furthest thing from my mind....but I learned. Mistakes that could have cost me and mine dearly were dodged. I talked to knowledgeable folks and they shared their experiences. I grew up in the 60s (teens) and if you think 1/2 tons did everything in your time then you can imagine what it was then.

Back when is not today. I recollect I could count the number of RVs I saw in a month on one hand if that many (or any). Now the number is countless. Not only that, it's not a slide in camper, load of plywood etc., it's a 14k lb. huge missile that can KILL lots of folks given the right circumstance. The perfect scenario is an overloaded truck and tires with a novice at the wheel driving 70mph with zero, repeat zero, understanding of what's going on. Nah, thinking "everyone did it" in the 60s, 70s, 80s as a way to excuse what's happening is reckless - it's apples and oranges....and far more dangerous for everyone. The easier way, IMO, is to educate in the moment as they are presented to you dependent on the receptiveness of the individual.

[Balvar24]

Originally Posted by flybouy

If you want to be the "language police" (did you really mean grammer?)

No, the error pointed out was not grammatical in nature.

Originally Posted by flybouy

As for "staying away" I personally dislike the thought of promoting ignorance by just "standing by" uninvolved. I prefer to share information, particularly when it involves safety.

I'm all for sharing information and safety. Some people just aren't interested.

"Don't cast your pearls before swine."

[Laredo Tugger]

"Don't cast your pearls before swine."[/QUOTE]

Evidently that's what the gentleman described in the OP of this thread did in the sales office of the dealership where he purchased his fifth wheel from.

Just an observation.............
RMc

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

"Don't cast your pearls before swine."

Evidently that's what the gentleman described in the OP of this thread did in the sales office of the dealership where he purchased his fifth wheel from.

Just an observation.............
RMc[/QUOTE]


^^^^

[Todd 423]

It seems to me that people just don't want to believe the factory GVWR of their towing vehicles or the RV's GVWR. For a pickup truck factory weight ratings are located right inside the drivers door. Most tow vehicles are rated to pull a lot more than the actual load that is being carried on the truck. Just an example: Ram 3500 with a factory GVWR of 12,300# and a factory rating to tow 35,000#. Hitch this Ram truck to a triple axle 5th wheel RV that weighs 19,000 loaded, then add air bags, because it squats the truck slightly. You are well under the towing capacity of 35,000#, so most people think that is good enough, right? Wrong. Load all your equipment and people that are going to travel with you and go to a CAT scale at most any truck stop. Weigh the truck and RV hooked up then go park the RV and weight the truck by itself. Go inside and get the weigh ticket and do a little simple math. On the ticket, with the RV hooked up, there will be 3 weights, one for each set of axles (steer axle, drive axle, and trailer axle). With all three axles being weighed, let's say the total adds up to 28,000#. Let say that the truck weight by itself is 9,000#. Subtract the truck weight from the total weight and now you know that your RV weighs 19,000# by itself (right at the factory GVWR for the RV). Now looking at the ticket with both units hooked together you see that the trailer axles are carrying 13,700#. Since you have three 7,000 axles, you're well under their capacity. That all sounds pretty good, right? Not so fast: Now, looking at the ticket weight with both units, add the drive axle and the steer axle together and you will see that your truck is at 14,300#, 2,000# over the factory GVWR of 12,300#.

[Ddaddyo]

Matthew 13:13, "There are none so Blind as those that will not see". The Threads that start I added Overload Shocks, Air Bags, Echo Boost Programmer etc. equates to doing the Most with the Least. A lot of these New Campers have No Clue as to what they need. I try to be Helpful and encourage them as much as I can. Some of them don't want to Listen.

[CaptnJohn]

In both Florida and Tennessee ive seen billboards of lawyers for accident victims of trucks and RVs.
Sadly overweight vehicle accidents cause my insurance to go up.
Ignorance is bliss, nothing more blissful than death. Kill themselves, no problem, no sympathy. Sad when they injure or kill others.
Thought the sales mgr at CW in Myrtle Beach was going to get punched because he wouldn’t ok a sale on an overweight 5er/TV. Buyer was loud and vulgar plus threatening.
I’ve only ever seen 1 overloaded pickup pulled over by PA state police. That should happen many times daily in every state. CA does, why not the rest of the states. A 17,000 Montana pulled by a 2017 F250 diesel like my neighbor should not be on the road.
Dealers, RV and truck, should be liable. When they start being sued things may change. Hopefully soon.

[WDPatterson]

Originally Posted by Javi

The silliness of the last few years have toughened my callouses for the adults who need warning signs to get through life unscathed..

Yes... Coffee is hot, and if you pour it in your lap it will burn you...

No.. do NOT pull the trigger while looking in the muzzle...

Yes... all dogs will bite if provoked

et cetera, et cetera

YES !!!
When you start seeing disclaimers on products, and realize they had to put that on there because people would actually try to do what they're warning you not to, everything else becomes clear.

[WDPatterson]

Sounds like it might be time for an "RV Owners Protection Act"...

I really hate lawyers and litigation, but Citizens need to be protected from themselves in situations like this. Need to be regulations for minimum size. And, manufacturers need to be held liable for their suggestions.

[WDPatterson]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Yeah, there’s lawyers on both sides along with experts that can speak to truck capabilities. What if I’ve upgraded the rear springs to 3500 springs making it exactly the same as a SRW 3500, does that make it safe or only if I get the sticker to certify it?

There's still a difference between an F-250 and F-350 in the way the frame is built. I'm sure the same thing applies to other manufacturers. It's not just the Springs. It's in the axles, it's in the shafts. The engine may be the same, but there are many other differences in that drive train, the frame, and even the hitches.
As of 2012, or so, F350s come with two and a half inch receivers, not two inch. Not sure you're going to see that on an F250.

[WDPatterson]

Many years ago, I was travelling to work, one morning. I saw a large 5th wheel trailer being towed by a pretty red Dualie, as they got off of one of our major highways.
I was on his right hand side, as we started to pull to the stoplight. He had sufficiently slowed, but had room in front of him. Someone came around his left hand side and jumped in front of him, as the light changed.
He did everything he could to keep that rigged straight, slammed on his brakes, and still hit that person in front of him.
It was a very large fifth wheel trailer, and a very sufficient truck. But, still, with not enough room in front, your trailer brakes and your truck brakes can only do so much.
I shudder to think what would have happened with an undersized truck pling that rig. It's the same situation as you see with an 80,000 lb tractor trailer rig being pulled in front of by a small station wagon. You see it on the news, every now and then. They flattened the vehicle in front of them.
All I could do to help them was give them my card and tell them I saw it happen. Nevertheless, most every traffic jurisdiction is the same. If you rear-end somebody it's your fault. The difference is they cut him off, and he wasn't able to stop.

[Todd 423]

And that's why I traded my 3500 dually for a Freightliner.

[WDPatterson]

Sometimes, the price of being prepared is lower than the price of NOT being prepared.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Todd 423

It seems to me that people just don't want to believe the factory GVWR of their towing vehicles or the RV's GVWR. For a pickup truck factory weight ratings are located right inside the drivers door. Most tow vehicles are rated to pull a lot more than the actual load that is being carried on the truck. Just an example: Ram 3500 with a factory GVWR of 12,300# and a factory rating to tow 35,000#. Hitch this Ram truck to a triple axle 5th wheel RV that weighs 19,000 loaded, then add air bags, because it squats the truck slightly. You are well under the towing capacity of 35,000#, so most people think that is good enough, right? Wrong. Load all your equipment and people that are going to travel with you and go to a CAT scale at most any truck stop. Weigh the truck and RV hooked up then go park the RV and weight the truck by itself. Go inside and get the weigh ticket and do a little simple math. On the ticket, with the RV hooked up, there will be 3 weights, one for each set of axles (steer axle, drive axle, and trailer axle). With all three axles being weighed, let's say the total adds up to 28,000#. Let say that the truck weight by itself is 9,000#. Subtract the truck weight from the total weight and now you know that your RV weighs 19,000# by itself (right at the factory GVWR for the RV). Now looking at the ticket with both units hooked together you see that the trailer axles are carrying 13,700#. Since you have three 7,000 axles, you're well under their capacity. That all sounds pretty good, right? Not so fast: Now, looking at the ticket weight with both units, add the drive axle and the steer axle together and you will see that your truck is at 14,300#, 2,000# over the factory GVWR of 12,300#.

That is a huge amount to be over GVWR, are you even close to your rear axle and tire rating?

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Todd 423

And that's why I traded my 3500 dually for a Freightliner.

Missed this before I posted the previous question.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by WDPatterson

There's still a difference between an F-250 and F-350 in the way the frame is built. I'm sure the same thing applies to other manufacturers. It's not just the Springs. It's in the axles, it's in the shafts. The engine may be the same, but there are many other differences in that drive train, the frame, and even the hitches.
As of 2012, or so, F350s come with two and a half inch receivers, not two inch. Not sure you're going to see that on an F250.

Maybe with the F250/350, but not with the GM Duramax trucks. They are literally identical, frame, rear end, axles, shocks, engine, transmission, brakes (on SRW models). At least with the 2019, I can’t speak for all years, haven’t researched them and don’t care to. That is also why GM gives both the 2500 and 3500 identical conventional tow ratings of 13,000 and GCWR of 25,300.

[luvmy5er]

Originally Posted by WDPatterson

There's still a difference between an F-250 and F-350 in the way the frame is built. I'm sure the same thing applies to other manufacturers. It's not just the Springs. It's in the axles, it's in the shafts. The engine may be the same, but there are many other differences in that drive train, the frame, and even the hitches.
As of 2012, or so, F350s come with two and a half inch receivers, not two inch. Not sure you're going to see that on an F250.

I currently own a 2013 F-250 with the 6.7L Diesel engine in it. There is absolutely zero difference between the F-250 and the F-350 other than the one extra leaf in the spring pack. I have the exact Dayna rear end with a 3.55 gearing which is also standard in the F-350. The engine and transmission is exactly the same as in the 350. I have had air bags installed on my truck to help with any squat that I may have and I have upgraded my rear differential with one of the ram air covers from Banks. I have no problems towing 20,000 pounds anywhere I want to.

Now what I do agree is that there are those out there that don’t have the experience or ability to handle a big load. Yes they should get some help or work their way up. I am a licensed class A CDL driver. I am a local driver here in GA where I live and I haul sod for a sod company. The majority of our deliveries are either in or around the Atlanta area. On pretty much a daily basis when I leave the yard I am over my weight capacity of 80,000 pounds. I know this and I take the extra precautions that I need to take to ensure that not only am I safe but those around me are safe from me as well. Hauling overweight is nothing new and if you knew the actual weights of some of these 18 wheelers out on the road it would open your eyes.