Upgrade to Lithium Batteries?

[Old_Stevenick]

However theoretically once mined the Lithium can be recycled and reused, unlike fossil fuel which is used only once.

When a battery dies, can the metal in it be used to make a new battery? I don't know, but that's what I heard once.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by ggoss

The government to move from fossil fuels to lithium isn't as good of a trade off as they think it is. What they are not telling us is lithium mining is not so "green". The mining process uses exorbident amounts of water and leaves a tons of waist that contaminates the land.
I am by no means a "tree hugger" but I do my research. I was all gung-ho to go to an electric car until I looked up "lithium mining".
Here's just one of hundreds I read …
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/b...ning-race.html

I don’t buy that line of thinking. Fossil fuels are burnt once, then gone. Lithium as a storage technology is recyclable, and still new, and separates storage from generation which is a good simplifying step. The genie isn’t going to be put back in that bottle…and it overlooks the HUGE costs involved in the status quo.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by ggoss

The government to move from fossil fuels to lithium isn't as good of a trade off as they think it is. What they are not telling us is lithium mining is not so "green". The mining process uses exorbident amounts of water and leaves a tons of waist that contaminates the land.
I am by no means a "tree hugger" but I do my research. I was all gung-ho to go to an electric car until I looked up "lithium mining".
Here's just one of hundreds I read …
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/b...ning-race.html

Our one neighbor is let's say environmentally conscious. When the Prius hit the market he was one of the first owners. I asked him how he liked his new "world environment killer". He looked at me puzzled and asked why I said that. I handed him a stack of articles that I printed out on the pollution created from the manufacturing of the batteries and how it was far more damaging to the environment than most "high mpg cars". He promptly traded in the Prius for a traditional gas engine.

The thing is, most folks don't go past the "agenda" and search for the truth. I have yet to see anyone selling anything that tells you the "whole story". Politics, is nothing but people (individuals and political parties) trying to sell or force their agenda upon the public. Truth, at least for now, is out there, it just takes some work anmd time to find it.

[Rocketsled]

There’s this, too: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10...s-study-finds/

I’ll add that lead acid batteries are hugely recyclable, so it’s not like we can’t create a process to reclaim most of them.

[terrythetech]

Perhaps this link may help. There or others on this site as well as many other topics. Ray has been a source of many helpful mods and ideas for years.
https://www.loveyourrv.com/upgrading...rgy-safari-ut/
https://www.loveyourrv.com/2-year-up...gas-generator/

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Our one neighbor is let's say environmentally conscious. When the Prius hit the market he was one of the first owners. I asked him how he liked his new "world environment killer". He looked at me puzzled and asked why I said that. I handed him a stack of articles that I printed out on the pollution created from the manufacturing of the batteries and how it was far more damaging to the environment than most "high mpg cars". He promptly traded in the Prius for a traditional gas engine.

The thing is, most folks don't go past the "agenda" and search for the truth. I have yet to see anyone selling anything that tells you the "whole story". Politics, is nothing but people (individuals and political parties) trying to sell or force their agenda upon the public. Truth, at least for now, is out there, it just takes some work anmd time to find it.

Until something better comes along natural gas & nuclear will be producing the majority of the electricity, so count on fossil fuels, & something much more hazardous, will be around.
Wind & solar aren't the answer, ask any Texan how those worked out last winter during their "snowmagedon". Not mention several states, especially left coasters, don't want those spoiling their landscapes, yet are the biggest opponents of fossil fuels.
Until forced to do so I'll not own an EV or even a hybrid! If I'm forced to I hope they're improved so that you can drive as far as I can in my ICE vehicle without having to stop for a day to recharge.
Full-timed 10+ years using 2 -12volt FLA batteries that were replaced once in that time! Of course never boondocked, or had the desire to do so.

[jvbutter01]

Lots of good info above. I won't repeat it, just add my comments.
We added 2 parallel 280ah batteries, love them. installed them inside under the bed to protect from weather. LifePo does NOT like freezing temps. Installed the Victron BMV-712 every now and then i check them with the phone app, and life is good.

[flybouy]

Many opponents to fossil fuel cars don't understand where that electricity that charges their vehicle's battery comes from. It just magically appears at the plug in. most modern communities have underground wiring, and folks rarely see a power plant and may not know what it is if they do. However; seeing the promotions for solar and wind a drive out into the country may note the solar arrays some farmers (especially chicken farmers) use to supplement their power needs or the big white sunflowers on top of the hills harmlessly rotating in the wind and can't understand why folks don't want more of this "free energy".

Unfortunately the schools and the industry don't tell folks what goes into making, and maintaining these devices. Just as a side note .... Several folks in our neighborhood had solar panels installed a few years ago when a company came thru and hard sell solar to a bunch of people. I checked the company out and said no way. A few days ago the folks across the street had a tree service cutting back the trees in the front lawn. They told me it was "part of their contract" that they had to have the trees topped out at their expense because it was starting to shade the panels. Two years ago she had to have them removed for a new roof install. I asked her if she's begun getting money back on the energy yet. After 8 years she said her electric bill has been reduced about $75/month but hasn't begun to payoff the cost of installing then yet.

Solar and wind have come a long way but simply cannot compete with the energy production of a modern fossil fuel, nuclear or hydroelectric dam. So many want to point fingers at nuclear generation but it's like an airline accident, it makes sensational headlines while the tens of thousands killed on the highways each year goes unnoticed. One day other energy producing options will undoubtedly come about, I just don't know if I'll live to see it or not.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

Until something better comes along natural gas & nuclear will be producing the majority of the electricity, so count on fossil fuels, & something much more hazardous, will be around.
Wind & solar aren't the answer, ask any Texan how those worked out last winter during their "snowmagedon". Not mention several states, especially left coasters, don't want those spoiling their landscapes, yet are the biggest opponents of fossil fuels.
Until forced to do so I'll not own an EV or even a hybrid! If I'm forced to I hope they're improved so that you can drive as far as I can in my ICE vehicle without having to stop for a day to recharge.
Full-timed 10+ years using 2 -12volt FLA batteries that were replaced once in that time! Of course never boondocked, or had the desire to do so.

Just the be clear, the snowmageddon had nothing to do with the underlying power source and everything to do with cost negotiations and getting caught out with the math with surge pricing.

I just swapped out a 19 mpg kiddie hauler for a 40mpg commuter...briefly considered an EV, but didn't want to take on that much debt.

The TH is a Diesel and will be replaced with a Diesel just before they stop making Diesels...I just don't see battery densities filling that RV use case at any time in the future.

I don't know how you switch the population away from Natural Gas...it's pervasive...but it IS a consumable resource, and it IS releasing constrained CO2, which is adding to our problems*.

(* = which is a whole 'nother topic nobody's going to convince the other side over, but at the end of the day, if we take a lighter footprint on the planet, how can that be bad?)

The future is gonna be Nuclear, Solar, Wind....and probably some petroleum to take up the slack, but we've GOT to minimize what we pull out of the ground and burn.

[xrated]

So, to get back on topic....without any political injections in my posting(s). Until someone, somewhere, somehow develops a form of transportation, other than a bicycle, there are going to be vehicles that need electricity. If you have an ICE powered vehicle, you will need a battery of some sort. If you have an electric car/truck/vehicle.....yep, it's going to need electricity. So, at this point in time, whether you are driving almost anything, you need electricity. Also, at this point in time, we have FLA and Lithium based batteries and a few other chemistries for batteries. Of course, the production of electrical power has to be part of the process and there are many ways to produce that too.....so I'm sticking to batteries for this discussion.

I presently have two Trojan T105 6 volt batteries in the Toy Hauler. They are almost 5 years old and I've maintained them regularly and they still provide the 12V power to the trailer. The AH number that they provide to me was 225 when they were new, and very likely some number less than that after 5 years of use. Of course when you factor in the 50% SOC usage, that takes me down to 112 1/2 AH when they were new....and some number less than that now.

With my decision to have my Norcold 2118 (18 cu. ft. fridge) modded to the 12VDC Dual Compressor change over, I am about 99.9% sure that the batteries will NOT be able to keep up with my needs on a long travel day. I do not have, nor do I want solar, I don't plan on installing a DC to DC charger, and I'm certainly not going to run a 5500W Onan generator while going down the road to run the Converter/Charger for the modded fridge.

So, my solution is to build a 300+ AH LFP battery from four 3.2 LFP cells, with a BMS for taking care of the over voltage, under voltage, low temperature charging and discharging protection, as well as some passive balancing of the cells. With that much battery reserve, I will be just fine for many more hours than I will ever attempt to travel before I stop for overnight and plugged into shore power. The whole purpose for me is..1. Provide more AHs than I really need. 2. Lighten the weight in the front of the trailer. 3. Avoid having to install Solar panels and DC to DC charger unless absolutely necessary. 4. No watering of the batteries and no off gassing from the batteries.

I figure my total build cost will be in the $1200 range, and that will include the batteries, the BMS, wiring and lugs, 300A fuse and 300A Blue Seas switch, terminal strips, and most likely a Progressive Dynamics Lithium based Converter/Charger. To get 300 AH out of Battleborn batteries, the cost would be around $2700. There are other "Plug and Play" battery options out there for a bit less money, but to me, this method is the most cost effective considering the factors I mentioned above.

PS.....This post has been approved by me to be free of any political/environmental discussion!

[WJQ]

I do not have time to read all of the posts, so forget any repeats.

I bought a Lion Brand at Costco in May for $700 plus tax for another application to replace Lead Acid Trojans. If my lead-acid on the trailer don't outlast me, I will replace them with lithium batteries. You will probably need a different charger. Talk to the Li battery manufacturer and then call the trailer power system manufacturer. Li batteries require a higher voltage to get to full charge.

[Rocketsled]

We have one of these and it can charge your phone, or a battery, or you can run a couple clips to the battery terminals if you're in a bind.

What I noticed during use was: It's a PITA to move as the sun moves, and a permanently installed panel is always sucking in any available sunlight....and there were an awful lot of cloudy days...I'm glad I wasn't relying on it completely.

[Gunny Mike]

Can you run both a LFP for your 110 plug in needs and at the same time have your stock lead bartery hooked up front for your TT to run your 12 volt devices (water pump, lights) ?

[xrated]

Originally Posted by WJQ

I do not have time to read all of the posts, so forget any repeats.

I bought a Lion Brand at Costco in May for $700 plus tax for another application to replace Lead Acid Trojans. If my lead-acid on the trailer don't outlast me, I will replace them with lithium batteries. You will probably need a different charger. Talk to the Li battery manufacturer and then call the trailer power system manufacturer. Li batteries require a higher voltage to get to full charge.

That isn't necessarily true. The WFCO converter/charger in my trailer has a FLA profile that isn't switchable to LFP battery profiles....but, it may still be OK. I will likely test it first before I switch it out for a LFP profile converter/charger.

The one that is in there now has a Bulk Mode that will provide 14.4VDC for up to 4 hours. If that does not get a LFP battery up to almost 100% charged, it will be so close that you likely would not notice it. It then switches to Absorption mode which should be right at 13.6VDC. If the battery is fully charged it will then go into float mode and that drops it down to 13.2VDC. From what I've been able to gather, many folks do not charge a LFP battery to 100% charge, especially if it doesn't get a lot of use. They don't like to be charged to 100% and sit there. Based on LFP battery charts, 14.6VDC = 100% charge on the battery. 13.50VDC is 99% charged. So even when the battery charger is operating in the Absorption mode, you are right at the 100% charge level. One other point is that staying away from 100% charge and down to almost 0% charge will extend the life of the battery. Lots of folks will do a 10% to 90% range...some even less.

[mikec557]

Just a point of clarification. Battleborn WANTS you to charge them to 14.2-14.6 "regularly" because that's how they've programmed their BMS to top balance their battery. Charging it to less won't harm the battery, but you want to charge it that high with some regularity. Don't know about other brands.

On the topic of the stock WFCO charging to 14.4v on a FLA profile: I've read in some other lithium threads that the battery has to be in a very low voltage state for the 14.4 to come on and stay on for 4 hours. But I have to say that I don't have experience in that. When I went lithium, I went all the way and bought a Progressive Dynamics lithium charger/converter.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by mikec557

Just a point of clarification. Battleborn WANTS you to charge them to 14.2-14.6 "regularly" because that's how they've programmed their BMS to top balance their battery. Charging it to less won't harm the battery, but you want to charge it that high with some regularity. Don't know about other brands.

On the topic of the stock WFCO charging to 14.4v on a FLA profile: I've read in some other lithium threads that the battery has to be in a very low voltage state for the 14.4 to come on and stay on for 4 hours. But I have to say that I don't have experience in that. When I went lithium, I went all the way and bought a Progressive Dynamics lithium charger/converter.

any battery manufacture will use top balancing in there BMS, so realy any battery should be charged regularly to 100% then have a balancing charge for a bit. I think what some one needs to build is a charging system that will bring it to 100%, give it say another hour then disconect untill say 50% and repeate. with todays solid state it wouldnt be hard to do, just would take some one who can assemble and write the code for... could even be sold as a seperate piece that you would put inline when you install a LFP battery....

Steve

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

any battery manufacture will use top balancing in there BMS, so realy any battery should be charged regularly to 100% then have a balancing charge for a bit. I think what some one needs to build is a charging system that will bring it to 100%, give it say another hour then disconect untill say 50% and repeate. with todays solid state it wouldnt be hard to do, just would take some one who can assemble and write the code for... could even be sold as a seperate piece that you would put inline when you install a LFP battery....

Steve

That would work well for a battery that's connected to a charger that's "always powered on".. It's more difficult to manage a battery charge program when the charger is "powered by a generator that can only be operated from 7-9AM and 5-7PM in a campground environment. The variability of charging conditions in most RV's makes it difficult to keep a battery that's "really being used as primary power with no backup" charged "according to ideal charging profile programs"....

To me, without sounding like I'm anti-lithium, the "glory of deep cycle FLA batteries is their "forgiving nature and ability to provide power/accept a charge under varying conditions in all kinds of weather".... Eventually, the "solid state battery systems" will advance far beyond where they currently are. They're currently "good" but for the price, they ought to be "outstanding".... Right now, they just aren't yet "they cat's meow"....

[Kzneft]

Just ordered my SOK batteries! Waiting for them to arrive. Was going to get the highly rated Battleborn batteries, but if I can get the highly rated SOK batteries for 1/2 the cost, that was the way to go.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

That would work well for a battery that's connected to a charger that's "always powered on".. It's more difficult to manage a battery charge program when the charger is "powered by a generator that can only be operated from 7-9AM and 5-7PM in a campground environment. The variability of charging conditions in most RV's makes it difficult to keep a battery that's "really being used as primary power with no backup" charged "according to ideal charging profile programs"....

To me, without sounding like I'm anti-lithium, the "glory of deep cycle FLA batteries is their "forgiving nature and ability to provide power/accept a charge under varying conditions in all kinds of weather".... Eventually, the "solid state battery systems" will advance far beyond where they currently are. They're currently "good" but for the price, they ought to be "outstanding".... Right now, they just aren't yet "they cat's meow"....

thats mostly a generator issue, I know in my 5th wheel and my Camper my batteries are normaly at 100% around 1 or 2pm from my solar panels (thats in furnace season, by noon in the summer) from the solar panels charging which leaves plenty of time for top ballancing.

also they dont need to be balanced every time they are charged, so if you are using a generator with restricted house then just charge them and leave them pluged in for a few days at home.

LFP batteries already have advanced far beyond Deep cycles and other battery types, the only weekness is charging in freezing weather, not an issue just mount the batteries in the heated space. they charge faster on the same voltage, have no real puket effect to mention, are happy to not be fully charged or constantly partialy charged, have a very low self discharge, lighter and smaller for the same usable AH, can be cycled from 100% to 0% and outlast most of us, can pass them down to your kids if you only use 80% of the capacity and maybe your grandkids if you only use 50% haha..

once the shipping comes down a little more I will be ordering the cells I need to convert the 5th wheel and take advantage of the heated space under the stairs that will hold 900AH of LFP batteries, that will give me 9 to 12 days of camping capacity running the furnace with out sunlight. so a nice buffer for the solar panels for thoes rainy days. the nice thing is that battery bank is going to be about 12" x 18" x 11" and weight about 120 lbs, it would take about 1000lbs of GC2 batteries to give me the same usable capacity (based on 50% draw down) and almost 4 times the space at least. thats the true advantage of LFP, especialy in somthing like a truck camper where the vast majority are to heavy for the trucks there on already....

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

thats mostly a generator issue, I know in my 5th wheel and my Camper my batteries are normaly at 100% around 1 or 2pm from my solar panels (thats in furnace season, by noon in the summer) from the solar panels charging which leaves plenty of time for top ballancing.

also they dont need to be balanced every time they are charged, so if you are using a generator with restricted house then just charge them and leave them pluged in for a few days at home.

LFP batteries already have advanced far beyond Deep cycles and other battery types, the only weekness is charging in freezing weather, not an issue just mount the batteries in the heated space. they charge faster on the same voltage, have no real puket effect to mention, are happy to not be fully charged or constantly partialy charged, have a very low self discharge, lighter and smaller for the same usable AH, can be cycled from 100% to 0% and outlast most of us, can pass them down to your kids if you only use 80% of the capacity and maybe your grandkids if you only use 50% haha..

once the shipping comes down a little more I will be ordering the cells I need to convert the 5th wheel and take advantage of the heated space under the stairs that will hold 900AH of LFP batteries, that will give me 9 to 12 days of camping capacity running the furnace with out sunlight. so a nice buffer for the solar panels for thoes rainy days. the nice thing is that battery bank is going to be about 12" x 18" x 11" and weight about 120 lbs, it would take about 1000lbs of GC2 batteries to give me the same usable capacity (based on 50% draw down) and almost 4 times the space at least. thats the true advantage of LFP, especialy in somthing like a truck camper where the vast majority are to heavy for the trucks there on already....

In response to the part in red, the most significant weakness is cost, not charging temperature.

As for the (IMO) functionality or necessity of requiring 9-12 days without recharging, how many people have the water or holding tank capacity to "boondock like that"?

If you've got the available cash or credit to build that kind of system, enjoy your good fortune. Most people on the forum are not so fortunate, have worked their RV into a budget that allows for modest upgrades, budgeted payments and savings plans to allow for the RV to be used for their enjoyment. Most, I'd guess about 99%, simply don't have (or can't justify) multiple thousands of dollars for batteries and an expensive "top of the line" solar system needed to run 9-12 days when nearly all of their travel is "weekends when we don't have other obligations" and a longer vacation during the summer when the kids aren't in school.

Expensive battery systems are "great for those who can afford them AND use them. Most people just aren't in that category.

To me, it's like discussing the characteristics of a Ferrari or Rolls Royce with a crowd of people who own Fords and Chevy's and can't afford a Cadillac.... YMMV