Upgrade to Lithium Batteries?

[GBGochColorado]

2018 Cougar 29rld travel trailer.

We are looking into upgrading our batteries from Lead Acid batteries to Lithium-ion Batteries.

Can anyone steer me to finding if our camper is Lithium-ion compatible? If so what other accessories would I expect to get.

What batteries would you all recommend.

Thank You
Greg

[chuckster57]

Biggest thing is making sure your converter is compatible with that type of battery. Other than that, I’ll let members that have done that upgrade recommend brands.

[xrated]

You don't want Lithium-ion batteries.....you want LiFePO4 batteries. Lithium-Iron-Phosphate. These are sometimes also just called LFP batteries. It is likely that the Charger/Converter in you trailer is not set up to charge LFP batteries, as they have a different charging profile to match the battery chemistry. LFP batteries require a higher voltage to charge them fully, and also, the charger does not follow the normal Bulk, Absorption, float pattern, that is required for Lead Acid batteries. So it's very likely you would also need to change the Converter/Charger unit in the trailer. Most, but not all of the LFP batteries will come with a Battery Management System built into the battery (BMS for short), and that is something that is a must in order to keep the battery healthy. It monitors and controls the charging process for the LPF battery to keep it from overcharging, pulling too much current, trying to charge when the temperature is below 32 degrees F, as well as shutting off the battery output if the temperature is too hot. You can very quickly damage a LFP battery if it is charged at temperatures lower than 32 degrees F, so a good BMS will stop that from happening. "Plug and play batteries will have the BMS built into the battery already, so you don't have to worry about that aspect.

There is quite a bit to learn and know about LFP batteries and how they work and how to maintain them. They are still expensive enough that you do not want to make a mistake and ruin one....or two, but the obvious benefit is that they will provide almost the entire Amp Hour rating without ruining the battery, whereas the Lead Acid batteries should not be discharged lower than about 50% of their full charge. LFP batteries will also recharge much quicker than the lead acid batteries, provided you have enough available charging current.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by GBGochColorado

2018 Cougar 29rld travel trailer.

We are looking into upgrading our batteries from Lead Acid batteries to Lithium-ion Batteries.

Can anyone steer me to finding if our camper is Lithium-ion compatible? If so what other accessories would I expect to get.

What batteries would you all recommend.

Thank You
Greg

We switched to two 100a lithium about 2yrs ago. Love it, could never go back to lead acid. In fact, when we sold the 5er I installed them into, I kept them and put one new lead acid in the 5er for the buyer. I also kept my progressive dynamics charger/converter and Victron battery monitor and Victron solar charge controller. This stuff costs money. No reason not to take it with you to your next RV.

First thing to check is can you fit two group 27 battery boxes (not just the batteries) on the tongue of your TT? I had to buy specific Noco battery boxes and I still had to cut off most of the inside handles to squeeze them into the space on the tongue. Yes, you can safely install them inside the pass thru or inside the camper, but that was more wiring than I wanted to do. So out on the tongue is where they live. By the way, I assume you want two because if all you want is 100 usable amps you're better off with two 6v golf cart lead acid batteries.

So, if I'm going to spend your money here's what I'd buy:

Progressive Dynamics charger/converter for lithium batteries. Keep your old WFCO charger/converter and Re-install it if/when you sell this RV. It's about $230.

Victron Smart Shunt battery monitor. It has built-in Bluetooth so you can monitor your batteries with your smartphone. Amazon about $130.

Batteries:
When I bought my Battleborn batteries there were not many options. Now there is. If I were to buy today I'd probably buy Ampere Time on Amazon. But here's three names for you.

Battleborn, about $900ea direct
Ampere Time, $399ea Amazon
Chins, about $399ea Amazon

Just my 2¢

[TimC]

A couple more things to add related to LifePo4.

First, lithium doesn’t have the voltage sag like lead acid. Even at super high draw you’re going to see very little voltage sag.

Second, no puekert effect. That means if you add an inverter and use high draw appliances you’ll still get the rated capacity. With lead acid at high (or even only a few hundred watts) you’d get significantly less than the rated capacity.

On the converter, you’d probably want to replace that if you get LifePo4 not only to have a converter with the right parameters, but because LifePo4 can take in a lot higher charge rates than lead acid. You could always do what I did and go with an inverter/charger rather than converter, but that’s a bit more involved of an install.

Bottom line, LifePo4 is better than lead acid in every way except up front cost. But, even those up front costs are coming way down. And, even at high prices like for the battleborn it’s a way better value in the long run (thousands of charge cycles vs hundreds for lead acid).

One thing to keep in mind with the really cheap batteries like chins and ampere time is lack of low temp protection. Those two brands seem to be good in every other way based on reviews I’ve seen. But, if you’re going to mount to the tongue and/or camp in cold weather it’s probably better to get something with low temp protection. Seems a good reasonably priced option is SOK. That’s the one I’ll likely go with for my new rig (if I ever get it).

[Canonman]

Hi Greg and Welcome!! to the forum.
OK, I'll be the devil's advocate. Why the interest in Lithium batteries?
IMHO The best "bang for the buck" in upgrading RV batteries is 6 volt Golf Cart batteries. Simple to install Inexpensive and no issue with the converter.
I'll go get some popcorn now

[flybouy]

Agree ^^^^^ What's your objective, what's the budget, and how do you plan on repleneshing the battery charge?

[TimC]

Originally Posted by Canonman

Hi Greg and Welcome!! to the forum.
OK, I'll be the devil's advocate. Why the interest in Lithium batteries?
IMHO The best "bang for the buck" in upgrading RV batteries is 6 volt Golf Cart batteries. Simple to install Inexpensive and no issue with the converter.
I'll go get some popcorn now

Definitely wins for simplicity of install, but not sure the golf cart batteries can be “best bang for the buck.” I’m open to being proven wrong, so mostly just trying to understand the thought process behind the 6v golf cart batteries.

Here’s my thinking: LifePo4 has come down quite a bit in price. I just did a quick search and see I could get 2 6v batteries for around $300. This would give me 200 ah @ 12v, or about 100ah usable if I wanted the batteries to not crap out quickly.

For $400 I could get an Ampere Time LifePo4 battery, or for about $500 a SOK. This would give me the same 100ah usable capacity plus come with all the benefits of a lithium. Also, for only $100 to $200 more I get a battery that will last 5 to 6 times longer even if I’m discharging near 100%. Also I’d be slapping about 80% less weight on the trailer with the LifePo4.

Yes, there’s the added complication of having to potentially replace the converter, but you can get a converter that works with LifePo4 for another $200. So, now you’re $600 in on the LifePo4 but over the lifespan of those LifePo4 batteries you’re going to probably spend well over $1,000 on 6v batteries. So, my thought is if you need any use out of your batteries at all LifePo4 is the better value by quite a bit, especially now that prices are coming down a lot. And, you get all the benefits of LifePo4, which are pretty significant when compared to lead acid.

What am I missing?

[Ken / Claudia]

Costco GC batteries are under 100 each at least in Oregon and Idaho. I thought the AHs on mine were 210. Sold mine at 3 years and still were working as new.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by TimC

Definitely wins for simplicity of install, but not sure the golf cart batteries can be “best bang for the buck.” I’m open to being proven wrong, so mostly just trying to understand the thought process behind the 6v golf cart batteries.

Here’s my thinking: LifePo4 has come down quite a bit in price. I just did a quick search and see I could get 2 6v batteries for around $300. This would give me 200 ah @ 12v, or about 100ah usable if I wanted the batteries to not crap out quickly.

For $400 I could get an Ampere Time LifePo4 battery, or for about $500 a SOK. This would give me the same 100ah usable capacity plus come with all the benefits of a lithium. Also, for only $100 to $200 more I get a battery that will last 5 to 6 times longer even if I’m discharging near 100%. Also I’d be slapping about 80% less weight on the trailer with the LifePo4.

Yes, there’s the added complication of having to potentially replace the converter, but you can get a converter that works with LifePo4 for another $200. So, now you’re $600 in on the LifePo4 but over the lifespan of those LifePo4 batteries you’re going to probably spend well over $1,000 on 6v batteries. So, my thought is if you need any use out of your batteries at all LifePo4 is the better value by quite a bit, especially now that prices are coming down a lot. And, you get all the benefits of LifePo4, which are pretty significant when compared to lead acid.

What am I missing?

While Lithium has several advantages, you're also getting a battery that:

1. Can't be charged below freezing without sustaining permanent damage.
2. Can't discharge more than 100A, i.e., 1200W max drain. Period. No exceptions. Got a 2000W inverter for the microwave? Tough noogies.

While Lithium has a higher cycle life, it's not that much higher than well-maintained lead-acid only discharged to ~50%. If you're cycling the lithiums regularly, they are the better value as your cost is cheaper for the total energy delivered over its life, but if you're cycling them infrequently because you're not using the system that much, you've paid a premium for something you don't need and lead may be the better option.

Basically, if you're off grid cycling your battery every day, Lithium wins big. if you're only doing it occasionally, well maintained lead will have a lower cost of ownership.

[flybouy]

Haven't seen your objective other then going lithium. That's fine, it's your money but IMHO it's a waste if you do the majority of your camping at campgrounds with electric. Sort of like buying a Ferrari and only driving in stop and go city traffic. Great for bragging rights just not very practical.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by snoobler

While Lithium has several advantages, you're also getting a battery that:

1. Can't be charged below freezing without sustaining permanent damage.
2. Can't discharge more than 100A, i.e., 1200W max drain. Period. No exceptions. Got a 2000W inverter for the microwave? Tough noogies.

While Lithium has a higher cycle life, it's not that much higher than well-maintained lead-acid only discharged to ~50%. If you're cycling the lithiums regularly, they are the better value as your cost is cheaper for the total energy delivered over its life, but if you're cycling them infrequently because you're not using the system that much, you've paid a premium for something you don't need and lead may be the better option.

Basically, if you're off grid cycling your battery every day, Lithium wins big. if you're only doing it occasionally, well maintained lead will have a lower cost of ownership.

While that highlighted statement is mostly true, there are at least a few options available to "bypass" that.
1. People that are using and needing to charge at temperatures that are below the battery spec (generally around 0 degrees C or 32F) put small heater pads inside the battery case and then insulate the case. I've seen people be successful with heaters (12 volt) that draw as little as 15 to 20 watts of power for the heater and they keep the batteries above the temperature cutoff for charging.
2. Some full-timers will move the battery or batteries to a heated location...as in the basement area or even under the beds in a trailer or coach.

Also, most people when going with LFP batteries will buy something that has more AHs that what they already have, via FLA, AGM, or others. The whole purpose is to increase the AH over what you presently have. In my case, I have two Trojan T105 FLA 6V batteries to a total of 225AH when new. Using the 50% rule, that leaves me with approx. 112 AH of available power. My new, soon to be built LFP battery will be a 304AH battery and I will likely set it up with the Smart BMS to make it operate with the 10%-90% SOC range.

The main purpose for me going with the LFP battery vs. keeping my 5 year old FLA power source is that in the spring, we are going to have the Norcold 2118 modded to be a 12V compressor type fridge (JC Refrigeration) and will very likely need more battery than what the FLA will be able to provide on a long travel day. We don't have solar and have zero intention of buying or installing any. I am also not interested in adding an inverter to the trailer.
The Norcold performance is sketchy at best while being operated in either the propane/12V mode or the 120V mode, so the swap to a Dual Compressor 12VDC system is going to be made.

[TimC]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Haven't seen your objective other then going lithium. That's fine, it's your money but IMHO it's a waste if you do the majority of your camping at campgrounds with electric. Sort of like buying a Ferrari and only driving in stop and go city traffic. Great for bragging rights just not very practical.

I personally went lithium because most of my camping is no hookups. I’d agree if your rig is plugged in 99% of the time no point on going lithium. But, in that case there’s also no point in 6v. In that scenario just buy the cheapest FLA you can get as you don’t really need a battery at that point except maybe for emergency breaking if the trailer breaks loose from TV on the road.

If you have a need to use the battery, even if it’s not every day, then lithium wins even on cost in the long term. Even if you’re getting the 6v batteries at $200 total. Regardless how much you use the battery the lithium has a longer lifespan, and a lot more usable capacity. The amount you use the battery is going to determine the length of time until the lithium becomes cheaper, so I would agree with going fla if you’re someone who is only going to be doing the rv thing for a year or two.

As far as the other points made. The max discharge of 100A for one battery is a fair point. The BMS or most 100ah LifePo4 won’t allow you to go over that. But, there are pretty major drawbacks to high draw on fla. The puekert effect means you’re actually using a lot more of the capacity than what the ah would imply on lead acid with high draw. The voltage drop is terrible for electronics. So, if you’re wanting to run high draw lithium is definitely the way to go. You simply add a second LifePo4 and now you have 200a max discharge. And, with the lifespan of these things it’s still going to be cheaper in the long run. If you’re very rarely going to have high draw, then why worry? Why spend the money on an inverter at that point?

As far as the below freezing recharge, another fair point. But as has been pointed out already that’s pretty easy to remedy. I’ve solved that by having my battery bank in the rig plus using a heat pad if needed. Discharging below freezing is fine and the LifePo4 will perform way better than lead acid in the cold. If you’re camping near or slightly below freezing it’s not going to take much to keep the battery above freezing. Most people probably aren’t like me and camp in single digits.

To the OP: my opinion is LifePo4 is worth the added upfront costs and little extra work for replacing a converter if you plan to use the batteries. But, as others have pointed out if you’re going to be plugged in the majority of the time then maybe not worth it. But, I’d also say at that point it may not be worth doing anything other than the cheapest option.

[snoobler]

Originally Posted by xrated

I will likely set it up with the Smart BMS to make it operate with the 10%-90% SOC range.

I understand the cell datasheets likely recommend this range, but if you plan to to this on a voltage basis, you won't get there. It's not possible at least at the upper end.

If you plan to set your BMS to cut charging at 90% SoC if it has that feature, don't do that, especially if it's a FET based BMS. You will wear it out. Generally speaking you should never use the BMS to manage your routine cut-offs. You should set your equipment to work within the desired limits and only utilize the BMS when protection is needed.

One of the easiest things one can do to maximize LFP cycle life is to charge to 3.45V/cell and allow for a long absorption phase like FLA/AGM. This will get the battery to about 98% SoC over a few hours depending on charge current. 3.4V will get you to about 95% SoC, but it takes a LONG time - 5-6 hours starting with a 0.5C charge rate.

The downside to the above is excessive generator run times. Charging to 3.55-3.65V/cell will minimize generator charge time.

[xrated]

First of all, I am totally a newbie with LFP battery builds, this will be my first. So thank you for the info, and it should seem pretty obvious that I have a lot to learn. So based on that, I have a couple of questions. I do plan on changing out the OEM Converter/Charger (free standing) to a PD9160ALV, which puts out 14.6 volts and then drops down to 13.6 when the battery is fully charged. Should I request that Progressive do a custom factory setting on output voltage for me to bring it to the 3.4V per cell or 13.8 total battery pack? Since the PD9160ALV will only be able to provide at most, 60 amps of charging current (roughly .2C charge rate), how would that affect me in the long run? Next question....should I set the lower voltage limit in the BMS to stop the battery discharge at a higher than normal voltage in order to stay further away from almost zero SOC....is that possible to even do based on voltage?

If this turns into a longer discussion that what should be in this thread, could we possibly just PM each other.....I don't want to pollute the intent of this thread.

[Ken / Claudia]

TimC and Xrated have some real good points. Making me think about future changes in batteries.
On ORV site someone said battleborn 4 battery set with extra mods is about 5300. To me it's to much for my electric needs when what I have works.
Thinking back to buying 2 12v AGM batteries a few years ago was in the 500 dollar figure. The 2 6vs in the 200 figure as mentioned.
I have been camping at below 32F every year and plan on doing more. And read enough about the lithium that freezing is a issue.

With 2 lifpo4, lets say 600 to 800 bucks with mods and have longer lasting more power(if thats the right word) and in my case needing a heating pad. (I am not losing space inside a rv to store batteries). Is something to give more though into.
Actually this is a good thread with good infor. Always good to learn about more options while rving.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

TimC and Xrated have some real good points. Making me think about future changes in batteries.
On ORV site someone said battleborn 4 battery set with extra mods is about 5300. To me it's to much for my electric needs when what I have works.
Thinking back to buying 2 12v AGM batteries a few years ago was in the 500 dollar figure. The 2 6vs in the 200 figure as mentioned.
I have been camping at below 32F every year and plan on doing more. And read enough about the lithium that freezing is a issue.

With 2 lifpo4, lets say 600 to 800 bucks with mods and have longer lasting more power(if thats the right word) and in my case needing a heating pad. (I am not losing space inside a rv to store batteries). Is something to give more though into.
Actually this is a good thread with good infor. Always good to learn about more options while rving.

Ken/Claudia.....just so you know, Battleborn now has LFP battery kits that you can buy with the heaters. Another brand that seems to be well thought of and like as far as a drop in LFP type battery is the SOK. You can get that in a 100AH version (around $569) or the 200AH version (around $1030) The SOK has a removable lid so that you have access to the built in BMS and cells, if either one every went bad.....easily replaceable. They also come with high temperature and low temperature cutoff. That cuts off charging the battery when it is colder than 32F and when it is hotter than 149F.

So a pair of 200AH batteries connected in parallel would give you right at 400AHs, most of which is usable power, unlike the FLA and AGM which is recommended to not take below 50% discharge or SOC. These batteries are plug and play other than probably having to change your converter/charger to a lithium profile charger. Something to think about

[TimC]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

TimC and Xrated have some real good points. Making me think about future changes in batteries.
On ORV site someone said battleborn 4 battery set with extra mods is about 5300. To me it's to much for my electric needs when what I have works.
Thinking back to buying 2 12v AGM batteries a few years ago was in the 500 dollar figure. The 2 6vs in the 200 figure as mentioned.
I have been camping at below 32F every year and plan on doing more. And read enough about the lithium that freezing is a issue.

With 2 lifpo4, lets say 600 to 800 bucks with mods and have longer lasting more power(if thats the right word) and in my case needing a heating pad. (I am not losing space inside a rv to store batteries). Is something to give more though into.
Actually this is a good thread with good infor. Always good to learn about more options while rving.

Battleborn are really nice batteries, but they are really expensive. Some much cheaper options have come out that at least seem to be as good (or close) based on reviews and tear downs. As I stated above the SOK seems to be a really good deal. Has all the same BMS protections as Battleborn for about half the price.

Charging below freezing is a definite issue. Even doing it once can destroy the battery. So if you’re going to mount the batteries on the tongue of the trailer I would highly suggest getting one with low temp protection (like the SOK I mentioned). The Ampere Time and Chins actually look like really good and well built batteries, but they lack low temp protection so I’d avoid those even if you do plan to use an insulated box and heating pad just in case something goes wrong with the heating pad or it doesn’t work quite as good as you think it will. All those long term cost savings go out the window if the battery gets destroyed.

My wife and I absolutely love our system. Granted, it’s a heck of a lot more involved than just a couple LifePo4 batteries. But, those are core to our system and without them it’d be nowhere near as capable even if we had an equivalent amount of lead acid power (although the weight of those would probably snap my axles ).

One other warning though, once you go with lithium you might get the itch to continue to upgrade the electrical system. You might end up with a 400ah LifePo4 battery bank and 800 watts of solar to go along with it. And, plans to go to 1200 amp hours (if I can make it work) and 1600 watts of solar on the new rig I’m getting. Yes, super overkill, but I have a problem.

[ChuckS]

They are nice batteries... Just not for me... not in my pocketbook cost.. We have been boon docking for over 45 years

Ours current RV uses two GC2 Costco batteries that were $89 each.. now at $99 each...

I can afford to buy a lot of GC2 batteries at that the current cost and my presently installed GC2 batteries are now 7 years old so gonna replace them next spring...

Looking at the AGM GC2 battery instead of the Costco but may just stay with the style I currently use...

Gets the job done and a gallon of distilled water usually last about 3 years for topping off the batteries over the wintertime...

The little Honda 2000's in parallel provide my recharge needs as well as 120 power if we wanna watch DTV while out on the woods

YMMV

[Canonman]

^^^^ I agree, our camping needs are well met with the $89 6 volt GC battery option. The DW is the household "armorer" and in complete control of the ammunition I'm allowed to use in the old "buckzooka". Added a simple solar kit and we can camp for days with no problems except for the black tank filling up