New tow vehicle maybe!!

[RGreene]

We have a 2018 cougar fifth wheel. Total weight loaded is 12600 lbs.
Presently tow with an 08 f350 fx4 6.4 diesel 302000km. Looking to replace the diesel with a gas truck. Reason we are thinking gas is the trailer doesn't get towed very often at this time. Sits on a water front lot for the summers here in Nova Scotia. Thinking gas for the possible lower maintenance costs. Hear the ford 6.2 is a bulletproof engine. Not sure on the Ram 6.4 and don't know enough about the GM trucks to make a clear decision on them.
Pros and cons on each one, and a valid point on why you would prefer one over the other. Thanks in advance for the input. Richard.

[sourdough]

Guess I'll step in this first. It's really more a Ford vs Ram vs GM conversation than anything else.

What you ask is a very subjective thing. Used to be there were great differences in the build quality, performance etc. between the various brands of trucks. That is no longer true - particularly with the gas engine models. Each brand of truck, equipped alike, will perform about equal to each other. On the gas engines the longevity is about the same - as far as everything I've read. I will say I've not done a lot of reading in depth on the GM engines bigger than the 5.3 (was going to buy a new Tahoe or Denali but backed out).

On the drivetrain you will need the highest (numerically) ratio axle available. The new gas engines and 8/10 speed trannys are great, and do wonders, but 12,600 for a gas engine is a BIG stretch....I know. It's understood you have to get the bigger engines. Something you left out, and something that might bring me back into the Ford fold, is the new 7.3 gas engine. If I were you that is the one I would get. I've seen great reviews and towing reports that sure make it look like a perfect go between between the gas and diesel engines.

After that it is purely subjective. I like a Ram interior, you may not. I didn't particularly like the Ford Sync 3 system, you might. Ford seems to have higher bed rails than Ram...I don't like or need that. The list goes on and what I, or anyone else likes, has nothing to do with what might appeal to you. So, I've said a lot to say nothing I suppose.

[RGreene]

Thanks for your input. All comments are welcome. Not sure if I can do new model truck, possibly 2 years old. And yes the new 7.3 gas from Ford would be nice to try out.

[slow]

Our Ford 6.2l has been absolutely trouble free for the last 5 seasons. Changed oil and wiper blades once a season, and that has been all we have had to do other than feed it gas.

If going the 6.2l Ford route, go for the 4.30 rear end given your FW weight and you will be OK given the towing specs. You will just have to get use to the higher revs that it needs to make hp. In the first 5,000 km it will feel sluggish but it will wake up after that and more so with 91 octane fuel which is all we run in ours since we use it to tow only in the summer and park it for the winter.

I would stay away from the 7.3l Ford for another year. The issues presented in the first model year are never resolved until the third model year since it is too late to design and implement changes in the second model year.

[RGreene]

Are there any Ram 6.4L owners out there that use the 2500/3500 for towing?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RGreene

Are there any Ram 6.4L owners out there that use the 2500/3500 for towing?

See my signature. I've used the 6.4 in my last 2 trucks; 2500 and 3500. The 2500 is not up for pulling your loaded trailer. The 6.4 with the older 6 speed and a 3.73 in either truck will have a hard time.

[Gegrad]

Me as well, see my signature, though I am nowhere near 12600 loaded.

Yeah, at 12,600 loaded you will want a 3500 with something like the 4.10 rear, like Danny has. And the older Rams with the 6 speed will not enjoy towing that rig. You can probably find a clean gently used 2019 Ram with the 8 speed if you search hard and are willing to drive a bit to get it.

[travelin texans]

I've driven both Ford's & GMs with the 6.? in both, in my opinion the GM rides better, handles better, seats are more comfortable, both get about the same mileage +/- a couple mpgs (Ford being the lesser), all brands have about the same bling & both will do a good job.
As for the newer Rams, I have no experience with them, possibly the best looking of the 3, but if I were buying tommorow I would be looking at #1 - either of the GM models, #2 - Ram, buying whichever was the best price, if neither of those available Ford would be the absolute last choice only if I had to have a truck immediately.
The above is my .02 cents worth! Not starting truck wars!
Ok Ford guys let's have it!

[wiredgeorge]

Well, now you weeded out all the various Ram vs Ford vs Chevy camps. Let me just say that whatever you buy, FIRST look in the door frame at the PAYLOAD sticker; most 3/4 ton trucks will not like a 2800 lb pin weight combined with stuff in the truck, the hitch and passengers. You are in ONE TON territory with that camper. You got advice on all the brands and I think if you are looking at a new truck and only use it for dragging your camper for the most part, gas does make some sense. The "I love this brand truck" will be a matter of personal taste. I also think the 7.3 gasser SOUNDS like a winner but a first year engine? You got some good advice on that front. Any of the gas engines combined with a towing rear end will get the job done. Last thing to remember is that Ford owners are universally the best looking bunch and just sitting behind the wheel of a Superduty will make you stand out a man of incredible distinction and sophistication!

[LewisB]

I'll probably be a singular vote, but there is no way I would purposely choose a gas tow vehicle with a trailer "total weight" of 12,600. With the truck, your GCVWR will be closer to 22,600.

I used to tow a 24' fiver with an F250 and the 460 gas motor. Yes it towed pretty well - after I added a gear vendor, upgraded injectors and pump, modified intake & exhaust, etc. On a good day, the best I could do on Monarch Pass in Colorado was to not get too embarrassed as all the diesel rigs whizzed by me pulling much larger trailers going up the 8 mile grade. Fuel mileage was about 6 mpg because I had to absolutely thrash that truck just to keep from being a safety hazard in the slow lane. Yes, I know gas technology has improved in modern engines - but look at the torque number comparisons. That says it all.

We have an F350 DRW with diesel now - higher maintenance? Nope. Been cheaper to operate overall that our old gas rig. If you tow anyplace other than Kansas, if you are pulling a 12K trailer, and if you are anything like me, you will severely miss the 1,000 ft-lbs of torque of the modern diesel.

I know some will disagree - just my opinion.
Good luck with your choice.

[JDDilly]

I agree with LewisB, a diesel is the only way to go. It does in a lot of cases reduce your cargo capisity due to the weight of the engine and other components. But the torque of the diesel makes towing much better.

[flybouy]

Seems to me like this subject arises a lot and in my opinion it's the "want to have your cake and eat it to" mentality. Yes gas engines have come a long way and no, they still aren't diesels. From what I've read the new Ford gasser is the closest numbers wise. To me, the jury is still out on longevity.

In my thinking, I know, I've always preferred to get the best tool for the job if I'm going to use it a lot. I'll compromise if it's a one time or very infrequent use as then the investment doesn't warrant the use. Example: If I had acers of grass to mow I'd invest in a larger tractor with pto for attaching other tools. For my <one acre yard full of trees a small 30" riding mower works great.

If you're going to tow a large, heavy camper once or twice a year the a gasser that just handles the cargo weight that probably will work. Take that same setup and start running all over the country then it's not ideal. Chances are you'll experience issues with premature engine and transmission failures as well as high fuel bills from poor mileage.

Now those that tow with gas and never owned a diesel will argue the above but I doubt you'll find anyone that's owned a diesel trade in for a gasser. If you want to read more on this I suggest you do some reading on forums that cater to class c or class a motorhomes. The folks with the larger gasser MH are seemingly constantly complaining of drivetrain failures. Under a constant load they simply don't last as long.

There's a reason large equipment such as 18 wheeler trucks, heavy 6 or 8 wheel trucks, buses, farm equipment and any large vehichle or construction equipment is powered with a diesel engine. Point is, match the tool to the work.

[Roscommon48]

heck, if you don't tow it maybe sell the truck and just hire someone to move it when necessary:-)

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by LewisB

I'll probably be a singular vote, but there is no way I would purposely choose a gas tow vehicle with a trailer "total weight" of 12,600. With the truck, your GCVWR will be closer to 22,600.

I used to tow a 24' fiver with an F250 and the 460 gas motor. Yes it towed pretty well - after I added a gear vendor, upgraded injectors and pump, modified intake & exhaust, etc. On a good day, the best I could do on Monarch Pass in Colorado was to not get too embarrassed as all the diesel rigs whizzed by me pulling much larger trailers going up the 8 mile grade. Fuel mileage was about 6 mpg because I had to absolutely thrash that truck just to keep from being a safety hazard in the slow lane. Yes, I know gas technology has improved in modern engines - but look at the torque number comparisons. That says it all.

We have an F350 DRW with diesel now - higher maintenance? Nope. Been cheaper to operate overall that our old gas rig. If you tow anyplace other than Kansas, if you are pulling a 12K trailer, and if you are anything like me, you will severely miss the 1,000 ft-lbs of torque of the modern diesel.

I know some will disagree - just my opinion.
Good luck with your choice.

I absolutely agree!
If you ever tow a large rv with a diesel truck you'll never want to tow with a gasser again.
Plus the ones that are always bringing up the higher maintenance cost of a diesel over a gasser haven't owned a diesel. I had 2 diesels with a total of over 300k miles between them & will honestly say I never noticed the increase in periodic maintenance over any of the gas vehicles I've owned. With either gas or diesel in modern vehicles the average shade tree mechanic will need a computer to work them making expensive repairs on either.

[sourdough]

Well, now that we're done patting our diesels on the back....as you know I'm not an advocate. Not because I haven't towed with one...even things much larger than an RV. Not because I haven't driven one - I have. Not because they pull better - they do. I don't because I don't want one and I don't like them! I don't like the greasy fuel; I don't like the smell; I don't like the sound....did I say I don't like them?

Like saying that those that say diesels cost more etc. is because someone hasn't driven them, I will say those that say a gas engine can't cut it (up to its limit) haven't towed with the new gas engine/tranny combos - we ain't in 1960 and they ain't an old 460 (towed with one of those as well).

Like I said, we aren't in the "old days" and the new gas engines do remarkably well within the confines of their abilities. And no, you won't be whizzing past me on a 19 mile 6% grade (btdt) unless you're doing 70 in a 50 - and then it would be because I didn't want to get above 2800rpm.

So let's all agree that a diesel has more torque and can therefore pull a given load easier. They will get marginally better mileage depending on the circumstances. They offer NO benefit IMO for daily driving - the minimal increase in mileage is offset by the more expensive fuel/DEF costs. And then there's that 10-11k price up front to put up with all of that (I only buy new). Plus, when 2/3 of the miles put on the truck are without the trailer....ummm, tell me again why I would put myself through that???

So now, instead of those tedious 3/4 vs 1 ton discussions we can talk gas vs diesel for the New Year....

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Well, now that we're done patting our diesels on the back....as you know I'm not an advocate. Not because I haven't towed with one...even things much larger than an RV. Not because I haven't driven one - I have. Not because they pull better - they do. I don't because I don't want one and I don't like them! I don't like the greasy fuel; I don't like the smell; I don't like the sound....did I say I don't like them?

Like saying that those that say diesels cost more etc. is because someone hasn't driven them, I will say those that say a gas engine can't cut it (up to its limit) haven't towed with the new gas engine/tranny combos - we ain't in 1960 and they ain't an old 460 (towed with one of those as well).

Like I said, we aren't in the "old days" and the new gas engines do remarkably well within the confines of their abilities. And no, you won't be whizzing past me on a 19 mile 6% grade (btdt) unless you're doing 70 in a 50 - and then it would be because I didn't want to get above 2800rpm.

So let's all agree that a diesel has more torque and can therefore pull a given load easier. They will get marginally better mileage depending on the circumstances. They offer NO benefit IMO for daily driving - the minimal increase in mileage is offset by the more expensive fuel/DEF costs. And then there's that 10-11k price up front to put up with all of that (I only buy new). Plus, when 2/3 of the miles put on the truck are without the trailer....ummm, tell me again why I would put myself through that???

So now, instead of those tedious 3/4 vs 1 ton discussions we can talk gas vs diesel for the New Year....

Danny - I'll attempt to tackle your question (in red above)...Some of us buy a "tow vehicle" and are unwilling to compromise on the ability to tow. Contrary to your statement, about 95% of the miles on my truck are for towing. I don't care about heated seats, or moon roofs - I care about mechanical capability and longevity. When I want groceries, we take DW's car. The Ford 6.7 diesel has twice the torque of the upcoming 7.3 gas motor and does it at half the RPM. One of those motors will be junk after towing 100,000 milles, and it won't be the diesel - it is just getting broken in.

So the answer to your question is that if you absolutely want the very best TOW vehicle, you are towing heavy, and you can afford it, you should get a diesel. If you plan to mostly run around town getting groceries or you are pulling a light weight trailer, you should consider a gas rig. However, I would sort of reverse your quote by saying that the gas engine offers NO benefit IMO for daily driving. Whatever works for you is fine; that's what you should do.

Let's agree on the facts and not try to put too much lipstick on the pig - a gas engine simply will not tow a heavy rig as well as a diesel. You may want the truck for other than towing and I respect that. You may not like a diesel, and I'm fine with that. But the facts below make the case for towing:

• 2021 Ford Gas 7.3 = 475 Ft-lb @ 4000 RPM and 430 BHP @ 5500 RPM
• 2021 Ford 6.7 Diesel = 1050 ft-lb@1600 RPM and 475 BHP@2600 RPM

[Laredo Tugger]

wiredgeorge quote " Last thing to remember is that Ford owners are universally the best looking bunch and just sitting behind the wheel of a Superduty will make you stand out a man of incredible distinction and sophistication!"

I don't know George, that guy in the picture may need a major makeover to become that " man of incredible distinction and sophistication!"

Just kidding....

No matter which brand I drive there is no escaping ugly.
RMc

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

wiredgeorge quote " Last thing to remember is that Ford owners are universally the best looking bunch and just sitting behind the wheel of a Superduty will make you stand out a man of incredible distinction and sophistication!"

I don't know George, that guy in the picture may need a major makeover to become that " man of incredible distinction and sophistication!"

Just kidding....

No matter which brand I drive there is no escaping ugly.
RMc

I'm a Ford Super Duty owner but vision hasn't changed when I look in the mirror! What am I doing wrong???

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by LewisB

Danny - I'll attempt to tackle your question (in red above)...Some of us buy a "tow vehicle" and are unwilling to compromise on the ability to tow. Contrary to your statement, about 95% of the miles on my truck are for towing. I don't care about heated seats, or moon roofs - I care about mechanical capability and longevity. When I want groceries, we take DW's car. The Ford 6.7 diesel has twice the torque of the upcoming 7.3 gas motor and does it at half the RPM. One of those motors will be junk after towing 100,000 milles, and it won't be the diesel - it is just getting broken in.

So the answer to your question is that if you absolutely want the very best TOW vehicle, you are towing heavy, and you can afford it, you should get a diesel. If you plan to mostly run around town getting groceries or you are pulling a light weight trailer, you should consider a gas rig. However, I would sort of reverse your quote by saying that the gas engine offers NO benefit IMO for daily driving. Whatever works for you is fine; that's what you should do.

Let's agree on the facts and not try to put too much lipstick on the pig - a gas engine simply will not tow a heavy rig as well as a diesel. You may want the truck for other than towing and I respect that. You may not like a diesel, and I'm fine with that. But the facts below make the case for towing:

• 2021 Ford Gas 7.3 = 475 Ft-lb @ 4000 RPM and 430 BHP @ 5500 RPM
• 2021 Ford 6.7 Diesel = 1050 ft-lb@1600 RPM and 475 BHP@2600 RPM

Lewis I think we can all agree that the diesel is THE vehicle to have if towing large loads or towing all the time - there is no question in anyone's mind that I know of. The question then becomes WHO needs one and WHO fits that criteria?

What ARE the benefits of driving a diesel if not towing daily? Longevity, to me, is irrelevant - and that's who I'm worried about. I've never kept a vehicle for 100k miles and never will - I tire of them too quickly.

Uncompromised "tow" ability means a lot more to me than "pulling" at the expense of all other factors. Those "other" things mean considerably more to me than "uncompromised" towing ability at all costs. I can buy any truck, or engine combo I want, but it has to make sense to me for my needs. I am VERY much a bang for the buck kind of guy and a diesel doesn't give me the bang; or I should say that I don't have the right circumstances to appreciate the bang.

We all need what we need and like what we like and that's fine. What I like or need isn't really predicated on someone else's needs or likes and vice versa. Some folks love and preach diesels and only carry a bag of groceries, same holds true for gas engines. The work, the use, the need is what dictates what is appropriate. We also cannot just overlook that $10-11k premium.....for what? Improved towing ability? Even if you don't need it? Now we're back to longevity or we just like it.

As I've always said; both engines have their places and the usage, or need, dictates which is better. The diesel is the better tool for towing large loads frequently and yes, the gas engine is better for towing light/med loads as well as lumber etc. The diesel engine is not WORTH it for that kind of use - remember that $10-11k premium to accomplish nothing in that scenario but pay more for fuel.

I've objectively sliced, diced, computed, flipped, flopped, carved and chopped the numbers for these combos for years because I, personally, am depriving myself of a nicer, larger trailer simply because I don't want a diesel. I consider ALL aspects from my perspective. I know we have our preferences and each can justify to ourselves why. I doubt either of us will sway one another but the commentary may be helpful to others. I enjoy that and thanks.

Edit: I meant to add this link to another conversation going on about gas vs diesel. I thought post 18 was pretty good.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=45448

[RGreene]

Went to a Chrysler dealer yesterday and drove a lightly used 2019 Ram 3500 and a new 2020 Ram 3500. Both srw. Very low optioned trucks, cloth interior, p/w p/l cruise. Both 6.7 diesel. Nice driving trucks. Sticker price on the 19 used is $58000 and the new is $79000. With a low monthly payment of $800 for 96 months. The used needed the trailer tow prep and side steps to make access a bit more reasonable, so that added another $3000 to the price. Different interest rates for the used, new has more incentives and a lower rate. Both were same monthly for same 96 month. May have to rethink my new tow vehicle replacement idea. Trucks are getting harder to find in our area and the used truck pricing for older models is quite high, if you can find one in good condition. The climate and road salt just kills vehicles here. Would rather not have a large loan payment to make when I'm retired. I think I'm going back to the drawing board and rethink this vehicle issue.