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Old 10-29-2020, 11:49 AM   #21
flybouy
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Originally Posted by LHaven View Post
What I meant by that statement is that dumping connotes driving to a dump station, which is what you are trying to minimize with gray release.

We're out in pretty much virgin Sonoran Desert here, so perk isn't even a thing.
My concern is for the new guy who reads and doesn't understand that the population density there is probably less that 1 per sq. mile. He thinks he's OK to "release" his gray tank in a cg and get's into trouble.
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:30 PM   #22
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Maybe those kids should be instructed in the ways of the outside shower...three a day?
On edit: I think this was meant to be three kids, one shower a day. Mo betta...
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Old 10-29-2020, 12:39 PM   #23
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If my kids took 3 showers each a day, first I'd wonder who swapped my kids and then I'd put a lock on that door and show them where the lake is..
I read that as he most likely has 3 kids, each taking a shower daily.
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Old 10-29-2020, 01:37 PM   #24
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I read that as he most likely has 3 kids, each taking a shower daily.
My, how times have changed! When I was 11 through 14 years old, my parents (1966 through 1970) parked their travel trailer on a season site. The campground was primative. The only water source was an old style hand pump, no one had electricity, and the toilets were pit toilets.

There was a group of us boys, about the same age, who were literally lived there through the entire Summer. No one ever had a shower. At best, someone would pump the pump and you'd squat under it with a bar of soap in your swim suit.

What did we do to stay "clean?" Well, they didn't call us "River Rats" for no reason! Never had a shower or bath for 4 summers in a row. But swam multiple times a day in a river!

Those WERE the days!

Did I ever mention also, the only time I had the flu was when I got the flu shot when I was in the Army????? Being exposed to childhood germs builds a strong immunity when you finally become an old fart! (I still drink from the old green garden hose laying in the yard all winter long). (Heee, Heee!)
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Old 10-29-2020, 01:53 PM   #25
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OMG! I bet you road a bike without a helmet too! We played tackle football without helmets or padding, played baseball without protection (these were pick up games where a bunch of us just got together) and wait for it ...... We actually dove into our old pillow cases on Halloween night and ate the candy that may or may not have been wrapped and without a doubt wasn't xrayed or screened by our parents first! Oh the horror!
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Old 10-29-2020, 08:07 PM   #26
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And stood up behind the front seat of the Buick hanging on to that rope thing that ran from one side to the other. Or laid up on the shelf under the back window to take a nap so your brother could have the seat to lay on
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:55 PM   #27
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"Gray release" and "dumping" have opposite connotations. I was talking about camping areas that allow the free or piped release of gray water at the site but central dump only for sewage. I can't tell you how many of those there are, today but they weren't that uncommon in rural or desert areas when we were fulltiming before Y2K, and we run one today. Showers and kitchen sinks are faster tank fillers than toilets, and it cuts down the frequency that guests have to tow out to the dump station, especially if there's a campground toilet.
Absolutely correct! While others indicated "they have never seen this", it is actually quite common in the western US. The National Forest System rules for dispersed camping state "In the backcountry be sure to dump gray water away from any fresh water sources and use biodegradable soap. Campgrounds usually have designated areas for dumping gray water." Given that the US owns, for example, 57% of AZ, 75% of UT, 96% of AK, etc. I'd guess the disposal of gray water in these lands is widespread. Here's a copy of the NFS rules handout. stelprdb5196126.pdf

To the OP, as a matter of practice, could the kids take their showers in the main bath area where I assume the drain goes into a gray tank? That way, if you can legally dispose of gray water, it would be captured rather than combined with the black. Like you, I think I would try to figure out how to get that shower to NOT drain into a black tank. For us, the 2nd bath sink draining into the black does not amount to enough quantity to warrant any change in the plumbing.
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:30 AM   #28
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Hello. I recently purchased a 42 foot 2018 Avalanche 395BH. It has two full bathrooms with 3 grey tanks and 2 black tanks. I just discovered, to my shock, that the rear bathroom shower and the outdoor kitchen sink are both plumbed into the rear black tank. The rear bathroom sink is the only thing. plumbed into the rear great tank.

I seems absolutely absurd. I have been in and around RV’s for over 30 years and I have never heard of mixing grey and black water.

I’ve called Keystone and they told me that’s how they build them. But the gal I spoke with seemed extremely unsure of her answer. I called several keystone authorized dealers who told me it’s unusual, but not unheard of. And because my trailer is out of its one year manufacturer warranty, they wouldn’t even look into it further without me footing the bill for the entire work up and re-plumb.

Is there any other 395BH owners out there who could tel me if their units are like this. Or any other Keystone owners in general who have their grey and black water lines mixed. This seems massively unsanitary and just not right!!

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That is exactly how they are built. It is not being cheap. it has to do with the logistics of poo floating downhill and the location of the tanks and the placement of the axels. See where I'm going here? It don't run uphill. It happens more so with long MH's. Are you sure it is the shower that drains into the black and not just the sink? The sink does not use much water. I know it drains to the black for sure and there is absolutely nothing unsanitary about it. It helps in keeping down the poo pile
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:39 AM   #29
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How many campsites have "gray water only" dumping? I've never seen that.
My campsite dumps gray water on the ground.
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:43 AM   #30
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I would love to hear from just one other 395BH owner who knows if their tanks are plumbed like this.

If there wasn’t a reason to keep grey and black water separate, than why would there ever be separate grey and black tanks. The very reason you separate them is so you can add chemicals to help break down solids and toilet paper. Also, you generally leave your grey tank valves open and only drain your black tanks when they are over half full.
It is done so things can drain over the axles. If it was not done this way your 39 foot trailer would have to be 5' off the ground.
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:30 AM   #31
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I'm going to avoid any RV park that allows dumping of grey water. We don't need the smells, and I'm more than a little wary that there might be an individual or two who pee in the shower.
No thanks, we'll pass.
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:21 AM   #32
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I'm going to avoid any RV park that allows dumping of grey water. We don't need the smells, and I'm more than a little wary that there might be an individual or two who pee in the shower.
No thanks, we'll pass.
I'm with you on that! Looking at this logically... A bidet sprays your bottom with water and the "fecal matter goes down the toilet". When you take a shower and wash your bottom the "fecal matter" goes down the drain with the hair, dead skin, fungus from feet, etc. That gray tank also holds spit from from brushing your teeth, blood if you have gum disease, etc. Washing dishes carries rotting food particles down to that gray tank. The resultant bacteria create a smell that's only exceeded by the blank tank. And how are those gray tanks being "released? Unless the gray tank is by itself then it's using a drain pipe that's also used by the black tank.

I'm no germaphobe and I'm not a "city boy". I've camped in the mountains with a sleeping bag and a lean to canvas, no tent. I've bathed in creeks. But that was me, miles from other folks. Human waste buried correctly. During the Black Death during the Elizabethan Era sewers were constructed for the first time to carry waste water away, essentially ending the plague.

As to the National Forest, Public Lands, State Parks or game lands etc. the important wording is "back country". Another point is in all the literature I've read they all refer to "the local rules of the area you are visiting". As there is no Federal mandate they refer to the state and local regulations.

So anyone unfamiliar reading this don't take away the idea that it's OK to dump, discharge, drain, trickle, or otherwise let go of the gray water check first. If you're out in the middle of Alaska 500 miles from another human than I guess common sense would dictate a different action than say camping in a Federal or State Park campground where there's a 100 campers on a 1 acre plot. The key word there is common sense, seems to be a shortage of that IMHO
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:52 AM   #33
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...As to the National Forest, Public Lands, State Parks or game lands etc. the important wording is "back country". Another point is in all the literature I've read they all refer to "the local rules of the area you are visiting". As there is no Federal mandate they refer to the state and local regulations.

So anyone unfamiliar reading this don't take away the idea that it's OK to dump, discharge, drain, trickle, or otherwise let go of the gray water check first. If you're out in the middle of Alaska 500 miles from another human than I guess common sense would dictate a different action than say camping in a Federal or State Park campground where there's a 100 campers on a 1 acre plot. The key word there is common sense, seems to be a shortage of that IMHO
I absolutely agree with the above - didn't intend my earlier post to indicate it was common to dump gray water in a campground, state park, etc. The difference here is between "improved campground" formal camping areas vs. "boondocking" in the national forest and other public lands - a little common sense goes a long way here. Most importantly, know & follow the rules that apply in your camping area.
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:55 AM   #34
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I think there's an "image of a crowded campground with everyone building mud puddles beside their neighbor's trailer composed of gray water being dumped on the ground".....

That is not the situation !!!!!

Most "dispersed camping areas" may have one or two camping units on an acre or more of ground. In the western US, a camper may tow down a dirt/gravel road, find a wide spot off the road or even tow away from the road into a clearing. There won't be another camper for sometimes a mile or more. In those situations, it's OK to dump your gray water on the ground, away from your trailer. Most people use a 25' or 50' garden hose, connected to the gray tank drain and devise a means to keep the slope such that the gray water "trickles" to that spot. In a week or so, as the ground saturates, move the end of the hose a few feet to increase the absorption rate into the ground.

Unsanitary??? In a crowded campground with kids playing in the puddle: HECK YES.... In a dispersed camping situation where the water is absorbed into the ground and all that's left on the top is a few "food particles"... It's not nearly as harmful (maybe even beneficial) to the environment.....

Like most things, away from crowded places, it's not an issue. In a campground where your waste "flows under the neighbor's awning", it's a terrible (and unsanitary) proposition......
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Old 10-30-2020, 08:31 AM   #35
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If my kids took 3 showers each a day, first I'd wonder who swapped my kids and then I'd put a lock on that door and show them where the lake is..
Javi - you kill me!

Our outdoor shower is the pre-rinse for the grandkids...
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Old 11-01-2020, 10:41 AM   #36
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I would suggest that kitchen sinks and bathroom basins that are plumbed into a black water tank though not ideal, are not a health hazard. Showers or bathtubs on the other hand are very much a health hazard. The drains on those two appliances are at floor level and it does not take very much to have the tank into which they drain become full and then the tub/shower drain can begin to back up with mixed grey and black water. Furthermore if in the that same bathroom the basin/sink is also draining into that same black tank then that is a big problem if the tank is full, the basin/sink is drained and the water begins to back up into the tub or shower. That water from the basin has to go somewhere and very often can and will back fill that shower pan or tub with highly contaminate grey/black water. Many water born diseases thrive in the bacterial rich environment that is our black waste. An example of this is how some very creative public health scientists are testing septic waste water coming out of densely populated structures such as college dormitories for the existence and concentration of Coronavirus to monitor it's concentration in certain societal micro populations.

As to the concern about contaminating the aquifer with sewage water, ask any farmer or resident of a rural home what they do with their home's waste water. In most if not all cases where the ground is permeable, the home has a "septic field" which is a series of permeable pipes typically buried at a depth of about two feet that all gently slope away from a main buried collection septic tank. The untreated waste water from the home is released back to the ground where nature's natural and highly effective degradation of the biodegradable sewage takes place. That same water may very well eventually end up making its way back into the underground water but by then, as most naturally occurring ground water deposits are hundreds of feet below the surface, the water has been cleaned and filtered by old ma nature.

I think the fundamental question to these manufactures that are mixing black and grey plumbing appliances is what is the purpose of having two different types of waste water collection tanks to begin with. The anticipated collection volume differential of the two different types of waste water is an important one but as important in my mind is the knowledge that my grey water is only grey water.

We often camp in very remote areas where I do frequently dump our grey water into our waste water wheeled tote tank where I will then haul the tote into the bush and dump it. Have you ever set up an outdoor camp shower? That waste water drains on the ground. If you are washing your dishes in a basin outdoors do you not just throw your dirty dish water into the bush? If there was by chance of there being black water in our grey tanks then I could not dispose of the water in that manner.

Here in Canada in many publically owned and operated campgrounds there used to be steel culverts that were buried vertically into the ground and filled with pit run gravel. They were designed to have grey water from RV's drain into them. A quasi or pseudo septic field system of sorts. As RVs have continued to increase in size and the volumes of the waste water have increased as well, that practice has diminished proportionately. The science has not changed however. Grey water is very much safe to dump onto the ground as long as it is just that. "Grey Water".

It is painfully obvious that manufacturers that plumb grey waste water appliances into black waste water tanks have failed once again to properly "engineer" their product.

Again just my humble opinion.
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Old 11-01-2020, 10:59 AM   #37
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Having grey water plumbed to the black tank is not a sanitary issue. These tanks are HOLDING tanks that are designed be emptied into a sewer line. The only issue might be that this tank has to be emptied more often, which might be an inconvenience. They are NOT the same as a home septic system. For those that are using a “chemical” tank treatment, you might want to switch to a microbial treatment. These microbes literally eat poo and organic waste material. They start breaking down solids and TP immediately. They also eliminate any build up on tank walls, keep your tanks clean, and no stink. They also keep your sensors clean and working like they should. You do NOT have to use a lot of water in your black tank. A normal/moderate amount of water is all that is required. I’ll add about 4 gallons back in black tank once I have emptied the tank and add the treatment and I’m done. Flushing your tank after you empty is not really necessary but I do a quick one anyway. You can use these in your grey tanks as well. Your local waste treatment plants also use microbes to breakdown solids in their treatment process. Do your research and give one a try. I’m betting you wont use anything else. The top three brands are: Camco sensor and tank treatment, Uinque Digest-it. These are both available from Amazon and Walmart, as well as several other retailers.
Tanktechrx.com is available direct from manufacturer.
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:33 PM   #38
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As you’ve learned it’s not unusual to have grey draining into black tank. You provably won’t see black flowing over to grey.

This actually gives you extra waste water storage in a sense. Grey tanks usually get full long before your black. If you haven’t run out of fresh water when boondocking, it’d be nice if grey water could flow into my black tanks when they got full.
I can run about two weeks on my black tank. Greys always fill up faster.
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Old 11-02-2020, 05:24 AM   #39
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are we there yet...…….
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:31 PM   #40
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I'm going to avoid any RV park that allows dumping of grey water. We don't need the smells, and I'm more than a little wary that there might be an individual or two who pee in the shower.
No thanks, we'll pass.
I also have some bad news for you about campground pools...
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