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Old 08-03-2020, 06:24 AM   #41
JRTJH
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It would be "nice to wonderful" if everything was "100% operational and reliable" on RV's when they are delivered to the customer...

BUT:

The reality is that manufacturers are selling EVERYTHING they can roll out the door, at a substantial profit. Now, think how "CHEAP" the materials that go into a "entry level trailer" if they can list it at $25K, discount it $5K (sales price $20K) and still make money. The dealership is likely buying it for $15K and the manufacturer is building it for $10K. From that $10K, the manufacturer has to buy the materials, pay for the real estate the plant is built on, pay the labor force, pay the overhead (utilities, licenses, taxes, permits, engineering, fed/state compliance inspections, etc) and still turn a profit for the shareholders, so if the materials cost much more than $2-3K for an entry level trailer and around $8K for a "luxury level trailer", they're losing money. Think about how much your last "bathroom remodel" or your last "kitchen cabinet/countertop changeout" cost..... They are building an ENTIRE trailer with less money than you paid for 20' of granite.....

Reality is, the materials and labor to build a $25K trailer probably aren't much more than $2-5K.

Now, that trailer, as soon as it hits the dealership lot, there are customers, cash in hand, waiting for the next trailer "with a floorplan sort of like we want".... There is such a demand for RV's that the manufacturers are selling them before they are even built.

They rush them through the assembly line, ship them as fast as the paint is dry, dealerships get them on Monday, prep them on Tuesday, sell them on Wednesday and deliver them on Thursday. The customer goes camping on Friday....

THERE IS NO NEED FOR QUALITY in the RV industry. They can't keep up with the demand as it is, why slow down the process, lose profits to something like "QUALITY" ????? It's not an essential part of the RV industry and they simply don't need to improve as long as "WE" (you, me and others) are standing in line waiting "IMPATIENTLY" for the next one to hit the dealer lot....

If you want quality in RV's, we've got to stop buying what they are producing now.... Do you really think that's going to happen???? I thought so,
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Old 08-03-2020, 06:59 AM   #42
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Back in the early 80's I spent a couple of years doing mechanical work at a local RV dealer and so I knew that there are no two dealers alike. The one I worked for took pride in his product and more importantly in his word..

When we delivered an RV to a owner it was ready to be used, that's not to say that something wouldn't show up after a trip or two.... because after all these things are boxes built on wheels and towed at highway speeds over roads built by the cheapest bidder..

We towed the new Avalanche 50 miles to a COE campground this weekend and the first thing we noticed is that you can't tow this trailer with the curtains down... and don't put anything on the couch and expect it to stay while towing.. everything else worked as it should have.

Oh... and I need to buy a new ladder, my old step ladder won't let me reach the stove vent..

A good dealer checks everything in the RV... but the most important tool an owner can have is a great "independent" RV repairman who is factory certified by the name brand appliance companies... They live by their reputation....
So true! People mistakenly buy a camper and equate it with buying a car. Nothing could be further apart. New cars arrive at the dealership and a "lot man" preps them for sale., The car arrives mostly ready. The RV dealership has a "lot man" as well but here's the difference.

A car is assembled at a plant where the components arrive clean, everything fits with no alterations, necessary. They stick the parts together, plug in the electrical connections and it's ready. An RV factory is making the shell from scratch like building a house. The only pre assembled components are the appliances. The electrical connections are not "plug and play" as in a pre made wiring harness is installed. All that wiring is made up on site by hand. All the cabinetry, plumbing, electrical, wood working are completed by had on site. So, finding saw dust, bits of wire and insulation, pipe, etc. are basically on the dealership to clean up (back to the lot man). They are NOT going to spend the time to go into cabinets or remove false fronts to get every square inch cleaned.

An auto assembly worker has a union waged, good benefit job and they install one or two components, on each car as it comes down the line in a well lit, air conditioned building. It's a fail safe assembly as electrical connections cannot be made incorrectly, they cannot install the steering wheel on the wrong side, etc.

A worker on an RV line is a min wage unskilled manual labor worker that's getting min benefits for their efforts working in a "sweat shop" with a "line boss" yelling at them to hurry up.

There "used to be" more care, more pride in the making of a camper but competition has long since driven those companies out of business or to a "changed financial model" in order to stay competitive. Even the long acclaimed Air Stream has waned on quality from what I've read over the years.

There are the independent companies out there like Flyte Camp that will take your vintage trailer, rebuild it like new and with impeccable craftsmanship. From the TV show it looks like the average 19' to 21' unit will cost you north of $80K. Many of the units go out the door very close or over six figures.

As long as the buying public demands cheaply priced campers the manufacturers and dealers are going to deliver just that. I watched a news segment last night on the rocketing RV sales during the pandemic. They said 80% of new RV sales are first time purchasers.

So buckle up my friends it's going to be a long year or so ahead with many "how do I do this XXX (fill in with operate the levelers, drain the 2nd gray tank, find the 2nd gray tank,etc) ", "How can I reduce the sway with my 1/2 ton truck pulling a 35' fifth wheel", "why won't my tv work with XXX satellite dish", ""why won't my air conditioner work on battery power" why is my battery dead when it's only sat in storage for 3 months", and "why is my camper made so cheaply, after all I paid good money for this".

Holy crap where's the tylenol.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:46 AM   #43
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John & Marshall, you both nailed the RV industry perfectly!
You guys must've owned a couple!!!!! So have I!
Even the ones say 10-12 years ago that were, for the most part, better built still had issues, never owned one that didn't.
To the fellow that posted how all the units on the lot had obvious issues, that tells you one very important thing, DO NOT buy from that dealer, if they don't care how they present them to sell how well do they take of them after they have your $$$$. Shop the dealer not so much the price.
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:00 AM   #44
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John & Marshall, you both nailed the RV industry perfectly!
You guys must've owned a couple!!!!! So have I!
Even the ones say 10-12 years ago that were, for the most part, better built still had issues, never owned one that didn't.
To the fellow that posted how all the units on the lot had obvious issues, that tells you one very important thing, DO NOT buy from that dealer, if they don't care how they present them to sell how well do they take of them after they have your $$$$. Shop the dealer not so much the price.
Probably far fewer than you and John. One summer between college a friend got me a job at a trailer manufacturer where she worked in the office (I'll never forgive her for that!). They made office trailers for site work and "toilet trailer" for events where there were rows of doors and toilets and sinks down the side of the trailer.

I was young and the only thing that kept me from slapping the "line boss" silly was the thought of reflecting on her negatively. I will say this, it convinced me to finish my education.
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Old 08-03-2020, 03:01 PM   #45
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Speaking of folks "standing in line cash in hand" to buy the RVs; we are on our way back from FL to TX. I try to kind of keep my eyes open to look at the rv dealerships but can't do that much anymore, I've decided no one works any longer and they are all on the road and vacationing non stop. But...

Driving by one today I glanced and mentioned that they had a lot fewer units on the lot than before. DW chimed in and said she had been looking and had seen several where the inventory was literally depleted except for 2-3 units. Guess between covid shutting down the manufacturers and then putting people out of work that have the money to go buy new trucks and rvs....there may not be any left before too long.
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Old 08-03-2020, 04:21 PM   #46
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If you only knew how much sawdust I've vacuumed out of two campers we've owned. You're new one may not have any on the floor in front of the bathroom door when you buy it, but don't dare to open any access panel to... oh, i don't know, bypass the water heater or look under the dinette seats!
Every Trip we take I find new screws laying on the floor. Last trip I found every dinette chair was loose. Got the appropriate screw driver and spend 1/2 tightening up EVERY screw in the 4 chairs. Bottom line is: RV Quality is horrible, but somehow they get away with it. I keep waiting for someone to swoop in a give them all a good *** kicking, but I've been waiting for over 20 years
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:55 AM   #47
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I have a 2018 2920BH travel trailer. While I agree with all of the above comments the one that really hits close to home is dealer interaction once they have your check. I dealt with a local dealer that I used for our first trailer 32 years ago. Same family running it but the new generation has a different outlook. More like, make the sale get it hooked up ASAP and get that thing out of here! My biggest gripe is the lack of documentation that goes along with a new trailer. After going through my packet I found that I did not have many of the manuals that cover the various operating systems. For example when I had to call Keystone and give them my VIN number as nobody could explain the procedure on how to run the slide manually in the event of mechanial failure. Very dissappointing.
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:11 AM   #48
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For example when I had to call Keystone and give them my VIN number as nobody could explain the procedure on how to run the slide manually in the event of mechanial failure. Very dissappointing.
That’s why you come here. I suspect there’s more information here than Keystone can supply you with over the phone (or in print!).
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Old 08-04-2020, 07:51 AM   #49
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So buckle up my friends it's going to be a long year or so ahead with many "how do I do this XXX (fill in with operate the levelers, drain the 2nd gray tank, find the 2nd gray tank,etc) ", "How can I reduce the sway with my 1/2 ton truck pulling a 35' fifth wheel", "why won't my tv work with XXX satellite dish", ""why won't my air conditioner work on battery power" why is my battery dead when it's only sat in storage for 3 months", and "why is my camper made so cheaply, after all I paid good money for this".

Holy crap where's the tylenol.

You are also forgetting the urge for manufacturers to load their campers with gee-gaws that have not gone through QC. A couple years ago, how many "InCommand, KeyTV and auto leveling system" gripes did you hear? Ok, you are a manufacturer like Keystone; stick with blue lights and stopping putting in poorly tested junk and stop sticking bedroom slide outs until Lippert starts beefing up frames. While Keystone can cut corners there must be someone at corporate that cares about reputation and repeat customers; they burn enough folks with lack of QC, appliance product and component testing and the like and there won't be a second buy from customers. I know that corporations live for today but today seems like a really miserable business model.



I read in an industry rag that Fun Town, a chain of Texas RV sellers had built a QC plant up in Indiana so that units would go there prior to getting shipped down here to Texas for QC and fixing what needed fixing. Problem was that with the glut of production, RV techs couldn't be found to man the QC plant. Perhaps that has changed but some businesses are aware of these issues.
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Old 08-04-2020, 08:00 AM   #50
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George the business model for "building a QC plant" in my mind would not be sustainable. How much cost would that add? $5K? Maybe more? Mercedes Benz years ago would bring cars to a "pre-delivery" facility not far from where I live. They would change the battery (they said the car was started 7 times between Germany and the US and not run long enough to properly charge a battery). They would install the radio antenna, floor mats, strip off the protective plastic and inspect/repair any damage from being in transit. I guess that was all rolled into the serious cash they were demanding for their cars.

As competitive as the RV market is with cost being the obvious driving factor I don't see how they can sucessfuly cover the cost. Would be interesting to follow.
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