Toy Hauler Gross Weight

[larryflew]

5th wheel toy hauler - Not a question as far as towing is concerned because it's lighter than what we currently have but rather a question about how they figure it. IE since a "toy" is heavier than typical things carried what do they use? Anything other than dry weight plus what they can carry?

Mostly asking because we are likely to use the garage as a second space without a toy.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by larryflew

Not a question as far as towing is concerned because it's lighter than what we currently have but rather a question about how they figure it. IE since a "toy" is heavier than typical things carried what do they use? Anything other than dry weight plus what they can carry?

Mostly asking because we are likely to use the garage as a second space without a toy.

It depends. Our trailer has a GVW of 13,000 lbs. I've never seen it more than about 12,500 with the garage empty and the 100 gal fresh tank full...The toys are also aft of the axles so weight and balance may dictate more than the actual weight. (We had an empty trailer, with Ikea furniture too far in the back, and the truck was sketchy as hell until we moved weight forward to load up the tongue.)

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by larryflew

5th wheel toy hauler - Not a question as far as towing is concerned because it's lighter than what we currently have but rather a question about how they figure it. IE since a "toy" is heavier than typical things carried what do they use? Anything other than dry weight plus what they can carry?

Mostly asking because we are likely to use the garage as a second space without a toy.

If I understand your question correctly you are asking hoe the gvw is calculated on a toy hualer? Every vehichle has a gvw rating based on what the system can support. The system is the frame, xles, springs, bearings, brakes, tires etc. On powered vehichles it's also the entire drivetrain. The load capacity is simply derived by taking the gvw and subtracting the curb weight.

[larryflew]

Thanks. What I was looking for. Assuming our actual tow weight on the hauler will be less than our Alpine which is pretty much exact and without a toy it should be slightly lighter.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by larryflew

Thanks. What I was looking for. Assuming our actual tow weight on the hauler will be less than our Alpine which is pretty much exact and without a toy it should be slightly lighter.

Toyhauler weight distribution/loading variances has been an issue for quite some time. Early in the toyhauler building process, many manufacturers were "guessing about weight/balance outcomes" with little to no experience on where to position the axles to compensate for "loaded toyhauler garages" vs "empty toyhauler garages" and how that impacts not only the weight numbers but also the towing performance/characteristics for the "typical toyhauler owner" but also those at the extreme fringes of being "at or slightly over the GVWR with a wide variety of tow vehicles. Needless to say, the "first blush expectations" varied greatly between an owner with a one ton dually and an owner with a half ton "grocery getter" even if both tow vehicles "fell within the calculated acceptable range"... There was a "boatload to be learned" during those early years, and some of it still "surprises the engineers" in some "fringe bell curve user reports"...

There are several threads on this forum and just as many on other forums detailing the problems owners of "early toyhauler models" had when trying to use their trailers. Many had to resort to sand bags under the front bed when towing with a garage load and moving those sand bags to the garage when towing empty....

Some of the early models had axles positioned such that the tongue weight with an empty garage was up to 1000 pounds heavier than with the garage loaded with a typical load....

As with any product, as they are used by consumers, the manufacturers "learn about the problems and seek solutions"... So, the "refined toyhaulers of today" are significantly better at handling the weight differences between towing on vacation with an empty garage and towing to the local ATV races on "race weekend"....

That said, the "basic rules on how to calculate empty weight, GVWR and payload are the same as with any trailer. It's just the "numbers that have changed based on the significantly different cargo weights.

[flybouy]

If your truck payload is sufficiant for the pin weight and the truck's CGVW (combined gross vehicle weight) is sufficiant it should be fine. Weight is weight, so a 500 lb quad is the same (other than the center of gravity) as 500 lbs of potatoes. Calculating pin weight on toy hualers can be more challenging as they tend to heavier empty pin weights than other fivers.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by larryflew

Thanks. What I was looking for. Assuming our actual tow weight on the hauler will be less than our Alpine which is pretty much exact and without a toy it should be slightly lighter.

So while the “Tow Weight” is lighter, likely you will have a higher pin weight without toys in the back. Likely not an issue just a difference.

[bsmith0404]

Yes TH are built pin heavy with the knowledge that a 3k lb garage cargo capacity can effect that. It’s not as big of a deal as many people think. The more axles you add, the less the effect. Think of it this way, if you have a single axle TH, it’s like a teeter totter, anything put in one end effects the other end equally. Not put a second pint under the teeter totter, it now takes a lot more weight on one side to effect change on the other. Spread that pivot point out even further with a third axle and it really takes a lot on one side to effect change on the other.

[larryflew]

Knew you guys would come through with the right answers. Thanks

[stubones]

If you open the kitchen cabinet doors, usually the upper ones, there is usually a sticker that shows the weights and balances of the RV. I've seen one toy hauler that was rated 2000 lbs in the garage. I wish I had bought it...

My Raptor has a max cargo weight of 2300 lbs including the garage and all personal belongings.

Some CAT scales can give you a left right balance value so you can tell if one side is over-weight.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by stubones

If you open the kitchen cabinet doors, usually the upper ones, there is usually a sticker that shows the weights and balances of the RV. I've seen one toy hauler that was rated 2000 lbs in the garage. I wish I had bought it...

My Raptor has a max cargo weight of 2300 lbs including the garage and all personal belongings.

Some CAT scales can give you a left right balance value so you can tell if one side is over-weight.

That can be a concern on TH, why they build them with such a low cargo capacity is beyond me, my Alpine has more cargo capacity than your Raptor. You put my side by side in yours and fill the tanks with water and you’re maxed out. Fortunately for the OP, he’s planning on a bigger garage. All of the ones that are under 3000 lb cargo capacity have 11’ garages. 13’ and up are between 3-4k.

[larryflew]

Fortunately mine worked out. Alpine had 3213 for cargo and the Vengeance of 2 feet longer has cargo of 3594. Being there will never be anything in the garage it should work out great.

I am 100% sure I will miss the size of the basement on the Vengeance compared to the Alpine. Used to kid my BIN that we had his bedroom ready to go. Just a guess but looks to be about half as big. Although we never needed that much space it was nice not having to dig under things to find what you wanted.

Odd thing, our first ever trailer was a new 28 foot Forest River that soon got too small and we went to the Alpine. Went back to Forest River forum and was surprised to remember some from there over 10 years ago.

[bsmith0404]

The large basement storage is nice. I haven’t seen a TH that can compare. Funny, I’ve called mine the MIL bedroom.

This forum is no different. I’ve been on here for around 10 years now. Stayed away off and on at times, but when I come back, it’s the same people.

[Camp CA]

larryflew.......if have not already done so weigh your fifth wheel loaded to arrive at the actual gross weight. If that is not feasible, suggest making a spreadsheet and starting with the manufacturer's dry weight add the weight of each component added after the factory (solar system, generator, batteries, washer/dryer, etc.), cargo, food, utincils, propane, fresh water, hot water, etc. You will be surprised what your gross weight actually is. Then weigh it and I would be surprised if you are not within a percentage. That is exactly what I did and found. Reason I did that was to limit my trailer gross weight to 15,000 lbs.

[P & T]

Originally Posted by Camp CA

larryflew.......if have not already done so weigh your fifth wheel loaded to arrive at the actual gross weight. If that is not feasible, suggest making a spreadsheet and starting with the manufacturer's dry weight add the weight of each component added after the factory (solar system, generator, batteries, washer/dryer, etc.), cargo, food, utincils, propane, fresh water, hot water, etc. You will be surprised what your gross weight actually is. Then weigh it and I would be surprised if you are not within a percentage. That is exactly what I did and found. Reason I did that was to limit my trailer gross weight to 15,000 lbs.

I have a sticker in the garage that says max cargo 3,000lbs but I know that the max capacity is 3,100lbs to bring me to a 19,000lb gvwr. I did do some math (not a spread sheet) but figured that the generator plus propane plus clothes and food would be a fixed-ish number in the 1,000lb range. We upgraded our mattress which added about 35 extra lbs plus with a fresh water tank at 50% capacity add another 450lbs. That leaves me with about 1,300lbs (semi conservatively for a toy) after I factor in some misc tools, hoses, cords, etc.

Here is the million dollar question: does the cargo carrying capacity factor in the refrigerator/appliances? If I have factory installed appliances, why would the factory installed generator also not be factored into that math?

I will hopefully get to a point soon where I can go to a scale and see what the true weight is to see how much wiggle room I actually have. Then I can see what kind of weight distribution I'll have to deal with.

[Camp CA]

Here is the million dollar question: does the cargo carrying capacity factor in the refrigerator/appliances? CCC includes cargo, fresh water, propane gas, occupants, options or dealer-installed accessories. Refrigerator/appliances are factory-installed and included in the dry weight.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by P & T

Here is the million dollar question: does the cargo carrying capacity factor in the refrigerator/appliances? If I have factory installed appliances, why would the factory installed generator also not be factored into that math? .

Everything that comes standard on the rv (like a refrigerator) is factored into the brochure weights. For you’re particular RV, the stickers inside the door (for keystone) or left side (some other brands) have your actual weights as it was shipped. So if your sticker shows xxxx lbs cargo capacity and it was shipped with a gen, then that was factored in.

[P & T]

I have a hot date with the dealer this morning to get started on some warranty work and I'll confirm the generator was shipped with the rig from the factory. I know the dealer installed the batteries so there's another 60lbs. Thanks!

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by P & T

I have a hot date with the dealer this morning to get started on some warranty work and I'll confirm the generator was shipped with the rig from the factory. I know the dealer installed the batteries so there's another 60lbs. Thanks!

Most TH are ordered that way. It’s possible that a dealer would order one without a gen (if I remember correctly, it is an option) but it’s rare. I think I’ve only seen one and it was a different brand at a small dealer.