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Old 03-07-2017, 02:31 PM   #21
CWtheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert185 View Post
I inherited my son's 16' race trailer. It had passenger tires on it that lasted a long time (except for one tire that my wife dragged on a curb). During the course of owning it, I was educated on the reason and purpose of ST tires. It now has Carlisle Radial Trail RH LRD tires. GW is 7000# and I'm sure it has been loaded to that. The old LRC P tires were not up to the task.

To many folks, tires are tires, but that isn't the case.
Passenger tires do not use the load range scale. They use the load index scale.
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Old 03-07-2017, 04:39 PM   #22
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Thank you. As stated was not my intention to high jack the thread. Going to stick with the Endurance line.
I'm sticking with Carlisle for about 5 years. Going to need that amount of time at a minimum to see if they follow the G614 reputation or that of Marathon. Had a nearly new GY LT tire blow and have shied away from them ever since.
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Old 03-07-2017, 11:19 PM   #23
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Passenger tires do not use the load range scale. They use the load index scale.
Oddly, LT and ST tires also include a load index on the sidewall.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:34 AM   #24
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Oddly, LT and ST tires also include a load index on the sidewall.
In the last tire rules discussions (2007) the use of service descriptions for LT and ST tires failed to pass. However, it was decided to allow the service condition descriptions to be allowed on those tires in hopes it would pass in the next go-around. To date it hasn't.
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:23 AM   #25
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Go with the Endurance tires. Much stronger tire if weight rating has any bearing on it. JMO
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:26 AM   #26
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Sorry to hijack your thread, but I didn't want to make another thread, I'm sure it's been beaten to death, but this has been driving me nuts.

We have a 2012 Hideout 26 RLSWE currently running original Power King Tow Max STR, 205/75/15. The tires are coming on 5 years old and we are going to Utah in May and want to get them replaced because I won't feel comfortable on 5 year old tires going 1500 miles, duh.

I've been reading reviews and just going insane. What I've isolated it down to are GoodYear Endurance's or the GoodYear Marathons, the Marathons are similar to the Power Kings (1820 lbs./50-psi), where the Endurance is (2150 lbs/65 psi), would there be a pro/con to going with the Endurance's? I know the marathons had a recall, but I'm not sure if that's a valid reason. The cost is only around $125.00 total difference.

Thanks
Marathon tires have a very checkered past and are not considered a "go to" tire IMO. The Endurance is new so there's not a lot of history to go on. Other considerations are the Maxxis and Carlisle Radial Trail HDs. Pick one of the 3 and go on down the road and don't go insane. Get a higher load rating if you can, and your tire will support it. Keystone is notorious for putting marginal tires on their trailers.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:51 AM   #27
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[QUOTE= Keystone is notorious for putting marginal tires on their trailers.[/QUOTE]

Just have to chime in here. Keystone doesn't buy tires, the frame manufacturer supplies the frame with all the running gear. Keystone basically assembles the walls and installs the finishes from others. IMHO You can blame the consumer for the subpar elements in that Keystone specs from the various suppliers. Upgrade the tires, the appliances, the furniture, bedding, etc. and the price of the unit would rapidly skyrocket. It's like the folks who complain about big box stores selling cloths from Indonesia or appliances from China. They are the same folks that baulk at the price of quality made goods made elsewhere.
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Old 03-16-2017, 10:55 AM   #28
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Just have to chime in here. Keystone doesn't buy tires, the frame manufacturer supplies the frame with all the running gear. Keystone basically assembles the walls and installs the finishes from others. IMHO You can blame the consumer for the subpar elements in that Keystone specs from the various suppliers. Upgrade the tires, the appliances, the furniture, bedding, etc. and the price of the unit would rapidly skyrocket. It's like the folks who complain about big box stores selling cloths from Indonesia or appliances from China. They are the same folks that baulk at the price of quality made goods made elsewhere.

If Keystone "specs" the tires then they are in essence "buying" the tires even if they come on the frame. Various tires are options and I've been told that by more than one dealer. I was just in FL looking at a Jayco trailer, about the same gvw as mine, looked like about the same frame BUT it had Maxxis tires on it. I commented on how nice that was to see and he said "Jayco specs all their trailers that way". So, to me, that means that Keystone is providing the tire, not the frame manufacturer.
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Old 03-16-2017, 11:08 AM   #29
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Whoever "supplies/specs/buys" the tires, they can't be immune from "knowing" all the complaints/problems with these tires and it shouldn't be that difficult to offer an option. Yes, I know, then they would have to stock other tires. Since most "tire places" can get tires in a day, or the same day (my tire place told me they get 3 trucks a day and if I called in the morning he could have it in the afternoon), it shouldn't be too hard to work out something like that...if they wanted to. I had a K-Z a couple rigs ago, it had a $200 tire upgrade option. It came in with 5 Michelin LT tires on it. Best $200 I spent. They looked brand new 5 years later when I traded it. Yes, I know, they were LT tires, but that is what the MFG put on it. Never had a single problem with them.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
Just have to chime in here. Keystone doesn't buy tires, the frame manufacturer supplies the frame with all the running gear. Keystone basically assembles the walls and installs the finishes from others. ....
Not exactly true. Here are pictures of the "storage lot" at the front end of the Cougar assembly building. As you can see, the frames come stacked 5 high, axles/suspension assemblies are on a pallet and tires are stacked 20 to a pallet. The frame goes into the plant "upside down", the axles are attached, tanks and wiring installed, any leveling system/jacks are installed, coroplast installed and the frame is turned over so the axles are down, then the wheels are installed and the frame is pushed forward to the first station where the furnace ducting, insulation and floor are installed, then the trailer starts is "sideways" trip down the assembly line.

None of the components are installed on the frame by Lippert, they all are installed "at Keystone" as a part of the assembly process.... Here's pictures of "how it goes"......

Saying that the "cheap tires come from Lippert" is simply not true. Keystone specs EVERYTHING that goes on their trailers. They alone (not any supplier) are responsible for the tire quality. Like many others, I wish Keystone would offer a tire option, or at least provide for a dealer exchange, but so far, that's not something that's available. My guess is, it won't happen until the consumer just stops buying Keystone products. And, with so many people "literally lined up waiting for the next one to be delivered".... I don't see a change in the cards......
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Old 03-16-2017, 03:02 PM   #31
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Those that follow my posts know that I often refer to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), a lot. That’s because they spell out to us what the vehicle manufacturer is supposed to do when they build our RV trailers.

Most thread readers are not going to read the references because they are not easy to put together in a logical order to provide understandable answers. So they shoot from the hip - so to speak.

The organization responsible for Keystone RV trailers is the Keystone RV Company. Before they ship a trailer they MUST certify it. Here is a picture of an actual Keystone RV trailer certification label. The DOT (NHTSA) takes the information listed on that label and any other mandated label very seriously.

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=22027

This is the reference for part 4 of 7 in the certification standard.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...6-sec567-4.xml

And this is the standard for tire fitments to RV trailers above 10K in weight.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec571-120.xml

When you put all this information together you will come to the conclusion that the vehicle manufacturer that has their name on the certification label is responsible for all items fitted to the trailer at time of shipment to the dealer. In the above reference you will see where the dealer starts taking responsibility for anything added to the trailer before it is sold.
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Old 03-16-2017, 03:34 PM   #32
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Do you often wonder why tire dealers balk when they hear you want to replace your Original Equipment trailer tires (ST) with Light Truck tires?

It's a responsibility thing. The RV trailer manufacturer has the sole responsibility for tire/rim fitments to your trailers. They MUST select tires they deem appropriate for your vehicle, set the recommended cold inflation pressures ("correct") for those tires and certify their selections on the federal certification label. Tire manufacturers are not going to take it upon themselves to say the vehicle manufacturer's selections are not appropriate. NHTSA is going to support the vehicle manufacturers in all cases that are within the parameters of safe and correct fitments, as NHTSA sees it, which is in accordance with FMVSS standards.
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Old 03-17-2017, 04:18 AM   #33
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Why do they balk? Because swapping ST tires for something of higher quality with higher/better ratings (LT tires) must be bad. LOL.

Of course the only manufacturers that balk are ones that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires. Honestly, I can't figure out the ST defense. Are you saying tires with a higher rating is somehow worse? Are you saying that manufacturers that offer an LT upgrade is OK on their trailers because those trailers are somehow different than the trailers of manufacturers that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires.

All of this is so laughable.

The evidence of ST failures is overwhelming. Those tires are not built to the same standards as other tires... and do not get the attention of the NHTSA like passenger and LT tires do.

You can spew regulations until you're blue in the face, however very few people are buying it.

How many people upgraded to LT tires have regretted that decision and have gone back to ST tires? I'm guessing none.

ST tires are junk.


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Old 03-17-2017, 06:14 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Those that follow my posts know that I often refer to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), a lot. That’s because they spell out to us what the vehicle manufacturer is supposed to do when they build our RV trailers.

Most thread readers are not going to read the references because they are not easy to put together in a logical order to provide understandable answers. So they shoot from the hip - so to speak.

The organization responsible for Keystone RV trailers is the Keystone RV Company. Before they ship a trailer they MUST certify it. Here is a picture of an actual Keystone RV trailer certification label. The DOT (NHTSA) takes the information listed on that label and any other mandated label very seriously.

http://www.irv2.com/photopost/showfull.php?photo=22027

This is the reference for part 4 of 7 in the certification standard.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...6-sec567-4.xml

And this is the standard for tire fitments to RV trailers above 10K in weight.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec571-120.xml

When you put all this information together you will come to the conclusion that the vehicle manufacturer that has their name on the certification label is responsible for all items fitted to the trailer at time of shipment to the dealer. In the above reference you will see where the dealer starts taking responsibility for anything added to the trailer before it is sold.
Wow, that sticker says that trailer is either 97 years old or has yet to be "born". 1-25-20? I know they start producing "next years model" earlier and earlier, but 3 years out now?

Soryy CW, couldn't resist. Please do explain how/where that sticker came from? And please keep posting, no matter what some naysayers have to say.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:16 AM   #35
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Nevermind ^^^ I figured out the glare is blocking out the two numbers after 20--
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:35 AM   #36
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I usually don;t jump in on these discussions however I do defer to members like CWtheMan who knows tires well and to the manufacturers on engineering.

ST tires, while they have bad reputations, are designed differently for use on trailers. the suspension dynamics of trailer is totally different than your truck that has LT tires. The biggest thing is sidewall flexibility that trailers with close axle distances need. That flexibility allows the tires to flex in tight turns (especially when backing on hard pavement) instead of putting a lot of lateral stress on the suspension (like spring hangers and shackles).

I personally think using a properly rated ST tire is preferable to swapping to LT tires for my rig. My personal choice. I know a lot of folks disagree.

RV manufacturers should go to the higher rated and better manufactured ST tires. We the buying public need to make this need known. Montana for one has listened and now ship new Montana with Sailun S637's.

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Old 03-17-2017, 09:08 AM   #37
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I usually don;t jump in on these discussions however I do defer to members like CWtheMan who knows tires well and to the manufacturers on engineering.

ST tires, while they have bad reputations, are designed differently for use on trailers. the suspension dynamics of trailer is totally different than your truck that has LT tires. The biggest thing is sidewall flexibility that trailers with close axle distances need. That flexibility allows the tires to flex in tight turns (especially when backing on hard pavement) instead of putting a lot of lateral stress on the suspension (like spring hangers and shackles).

I personally think using a properly rated ST tire is preferable to swapping to LT tires for my rig. My personal choice. I know a lot of folks disagree.

RV manufacturers should go to the higher rated and better manufactured ST tires. We the buying public need to make this need known. Montana for one has listened and now ship new Montana with Sailun S637's.

Mike
^^^Looked at one a couple of days ago and it was nice to see the Sailuns.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:30 AM   #38
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Why do they balk? Because swapping ST tires for something of higher quality with higher/better ratings (LT tires) must be bad. LOL.

Basically they balk because it's considered a misapplication to use a replacement tire of a different design.

Of course the only manufacturers that balk are ones that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires. Honestly, I can't figure out the ST defense. Are you saying tires with a higher rating is somehow worse? A tire's rating is described on it's sidewall.Are you saying that manufacturers that offer an LT upgrade is OK on their trailers because those trailers are somehow different than the trailers of manufacturers that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires? Trailer manufacturers do not offer across the board optional tires. They only do it on models of Their choice. Keystone sometimes offers LRG light truck tires on heavier models. Those LRG tires also have "RST" on their sidewalls - Regional Service Trailer.

All of this is so laughable.

The evidence of ST failures is overwhelming. Those tires are not built to the same standards as other tires... and do not get the attention of the NHTSA like passenger and LT tires do.

You can spew regulations until you're blue in the face, however very few people are buying it.

How many people upgraded to LT tires have regretted that decision and have gone back to ST tires? I'm guessing none.

ST tires are junk.


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Tires come in many forms. Passenger, Light Truck and Special Trailer tires are just the three most popular ones used on RV trailers with axle ratings up to 7000#. Within designs there are all kinds of options. Steel casings and polyester casings are the most popular. A lot of RV trailers are nearly 13' tall and sway a lot. That has to be part of a design feature for ST tires. Tire flexibility is a design feature of all three of the mentioned tires. However, that flexibility is designed to function differently for all of them. With the ST tires it's designed into the center section of the tires. Passenger tires flexibility is so soft compared to the others that their load capacities must be derated by about 10% when fitted to pick-up truck axles or trailer axles. LT tires with their stiffness are very hard on suspension systems not designed to absorb the shock. Shackles may be the first thing to fail from the stresses.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:29 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Outback 325BH View Post
Why do they balk? Because swapping ST tires for something of higher quality with higher/better ratings (LT tires) must be bad. LOL.

Of course the only manufacturers that balk are ones that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires. Honestly, I can't figure out the ST defense. Are you saying tires with a higher rating is somehow worse? Are you saying that manufacturers that offer an LT upgrade is OK on their trailers because those trailers are somehow different than the trailers of manufacturers that do not offer an upgrade to LT tires.

All of this is so laughable.

The evidence of ST failures is overwhelming. Those tires are not built to the same standards as other tires... and do not get the attention of the NHTSA like passenger and LT tires do.

You can spew regulations until you're blue in the face, however very few people are buying it.

How many people upgraded to LT tires have regretted that decision and have gone back to ST tires? I'm guessing none.

ST tires are junk.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Tires come in many forms. Passenger, Light Truck and Special Trailer tires are just the three most popular ones used on RV trailers with axle ratings up to 7000#. Within designs there are all kinds of options. Steel casings and polyester casings are the most popular. A lot of RV trailers are nearly 13' tall and sway a lot. That has to be part of a design feature for ST tires. Tire flexibility is a design feature of all three of the mentioned tires. However, that flexibility is designed to function differently for all of them. With the ST tires it's designed into the center section of the tires. Passenger tires flexibility is so soft compared to the others that their load capacities must be derated by about 10% when fitted to pick-up truck axles or trailer axles. LT tires with their stiffness are very hard on suspension systems not designed to absorb the shock. Shackles may be the first thing to fail from the stresses.
Well just look at over the road trucking. One casing with different tread designs for different applications.
New tires are a requirement for steer axles, but drivers and trailer tires retreads are allowed. the casing of the tires is all the same, be it a driver or trailer tread design. driver tread design also varies with what the tractor is doing. Highway rigs might use ribs for drivers as they don't need an aggressive tread design. Off Road tractors like logging truck want an aggressive traction tire as some roads are pretty bad.
My point is there is no special trailer tire in the over the road world.

The 12 year old (my Bad) LT tires on our Copper Canyon are getting replaced next weekend with another set of LT tires.
The 12 year old tires have just started to show age cracking at the bead.
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Old 03-19-2017, 08:14 AM   #40
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Do you often wonder why tire dealers balk when they hear you want to replace your Original Equipment trailer tires (ST) with Light Truck tires?

It's a responsibility thing. The RV trailer manufacturer has the sole responsibility for tire/rim fitments to your trailers. They MUST select tires they deem appropriate for your vehicle, set the recommended cold inflation pressures ("correct") for those tires and certify their selections on the federal certification label. Tire manufacturers are not going to take it upon themselves to say the vehicle manufacturer's selections are not appropriate. NHTSA is going to support the vehicle manufacturers in all cases that are within the parameters of safe and correct fitments, as NHTSA sees it, which is in accordance with FMVSS standards.
That's all well and good, except often the reality is that the manufacturers buy cheap tires that in reality don't meet reliable standards. A good case in point besides the obvious issues we see on fivers are the Jaxxon tires that came on my car hauler. They were undersize and wore unevenly and prematurely. I called the trailer manufacturer and described the problem. The owner actually told me that perhaps I had done something to disturb alignment or bent an axle. He even mentioned that the tires should not be balanced.

I measured everything according to his specs and all was within limits. I changed the tires to Carlisle balanced tires and all the noticed issues disappeared. Discount Tire had never heard of Jaxxon, and neither had I.

It's good that the government sets standards for the consumer's protection, but often typically what happens is things failling through the cracks along with unintended consequences. I'm not saying that the government agencies should be disbanded, but the consumer has to take some responsibility and assume added expense in the process by doing his or her own due diligence because the guvmint protection is lacking. Avoid dependence, do the research, spend the money and get the right tire for your rig, balanced with metal stems and a TPMS ASAP. A wetbolt kit with heavy shackles and bronze bushings ain't a bad idea, either (more due diligence). The peace of mind, alone, is worth it.
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