Half ton towing

[GunDoc]

I know this has been asked many, many times, but…

I am seriously considering the purchase of a 27RLSWE and am looking for reassurance that my TV will be able to handle it. My TV is a 2014 GMC Sierra Crew Cab 4x4, 5.3ltr, 3.42, with trailering package, All Terrain Plus package and Z71. I have the heavy duty XMSN and engine oil coolers along with Rancho shocks and bigger front sway bar. Truck is rated for 9600Lbs towing, 7K GVW with a max combined GVW of 15K. The 27RLSWE weighs in at 6300, dry, 610 tongue weight and is right at 30’ overall.

I have used the various calculators with 15% safety margin and it looks like I can add at least 500lbs to the TT before I approach the recommended number. With all of this plus the weight of four adults in the truck I still have around 2K before I hit the max combined 15K. I obviously plan on using a WD hitch with sway control.

Do you think this is a safe TT/TV combo?

Thanks!

[placergoldman]

I have almost the same set up..27rls but a 2013 4x4 set up the same as your 2014..Just got back from a trip from So cal up to Idaho..Had no problems at all..Pulled great,had no power issues or any issues at all...Good luck and go just have fun....

Tim

[GunDoc]

Tim,

Thanks for the input. I have towed a lot more weight with less truck in the past, but not something a large and am/was concerned about having a large “sail” behind my truck. Did you, or have you had any problems with sway?

Steve

[placergoldman]

The only sway I had was when coming back going through the high desert of Barstow and Victorville was the wind and big rigs going by..I have the WD hitch and sway controler but I don't think anything will keep the wind from pushing you around..It was my first time in high winds and it was very exciting...

Tim

[GunDoc]

I can understand the winds around Barstow and Victorville...Been to Ft Irwin (NTC) a number of times and it is often plenty windy!

Thanks again. Guess I'll go pick up my new TT next week and see how it does!

Steve

[Ken / Claudia]

I did go over a scale and checked the wt.s with the listed trailer. It was 6900lbs and tongue wt. was 900lbs. loaded for a overnight trip with fresh water,propane, 2 batteries. I do not know if yours will be lighter or heavier, just giving you some real numbers. Keystone listed the trailer dry wt. 5576 and capacity 1624 total of 7200 GVW. hitch 530 lbs

[GunDoc]

Thanks Ken/Claudia,

I know these TT weights do vary and I have to watch how I load. I don't think I can afford to travel with full water tank, so I will save some weight there (full up water would add close to 500lbs to mine). Again, I think the drive train is plenty to pull the weight (I pulled close to 8000K with a nearly identical truck) it's the wind resistance and sway that concerns me most.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by GunDoc

Thanks Ken/Claudia,

I know these TT weights do vary and I have to watch how I load. I don't think I can afford to travel with full water tank, so I will save some weight there (full up water would add close to 500lbs to mine). Again, I think the drive train is plenty to pull the weight (I pulled close to 8000K with a nearly identical truck) it's the wind resistance and sway that concerns me most.

The problem really isn't the ability to pull the trailer. There's enough HP and torque. The issue you're going to run into is payload and GCW. You say that the truck's GVW is 7000 lbs and the GCW (truck and trailer) maximum is 15K with a maximum trailer weight of 9600 lbs.

If you do the math, your truck is going to be "at payload" with 4 adults onboard. That's 7000 lb. Now, subtract that from the "maximum GCW of 15000 and you'll see that you're nowhere near the 9600 "max trailer" capability. The EMPTY truck may be rated to tow 9600 lbs, but as you approach your truck's GVW, the maximum allowable trailer weight goes down. The TOTAL can't exceed 15000 lbs, and if the truck is at GVW, you can only tow a trailer weighing 8000 lbs.

The auto industry, the trailer industry and the sales force at both kinds of dealerships use the "maximum allowable" numbers independently to make sales, but when you add it all together, you get a much reduced "maximum" in the reality of towing.

Realistically, with "payload" in mind, you're looking at topping out much closer to a 4000 or 4500 lb empty weight trailer. The truck probably weighs about 5600lbs, GVW of 7000 leaves a payload of 1400 lbs. the "driver's weight of 150 lbs" is calculated in the payload allowance that you'll find on the door sticker, but the passengers aren't.

So, if you've got 3 adult passengers at 175 lbs each and you weigh 175, you've added 700 lbs to your "max payload".... Subtract the driver's allowance of 150 and your "payload has increased 550 lbs. That leaves 850 lbs of available payload (with nothing in the bed, no bed mat, no bed liner, no cap or tonneau cover, no added accessories, no tool box, no cooler in the truck, nothing but the passengers and the clothes they are wearing.

Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs. That's within 30 pounds of maxing out your truck.

As I said at the beginning, You've got the HP and the torque to pull almost any trailer up to about 12 or 13000 lbs. but you simply don't have the "rated payload" to tackle a trailer with an "honest" tongue weight of 800-1000 lbs. The trailer you're looking at is in that category.

[gepaine]

I have no argument with the basic conclusions posted by JRTJH; however, I have seen calculations such as the following posted often, and I think they are not accurate:

"Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs."

I contend that when you add weight to the trailer's tongue, the tongue weight is not increased pound-for-pound. I think roughly half of that additional weight is carried by the tires. So if you add, for example, 60 pounds of propane, then the tongue weight should increase by roughly 30 pounds.

Am I wrong?

Update: My statement that roughly half would be carried by the tires was incorrect. Since the weight is closer to the tongue than to the tires, more weight would be carried by the tongue. So maybe 80% on the tongue and 20% on the tires - just to use rough terms. Still, not all of the additional weight is on the tongue; however, JRTJH's simplification is certainly accurate enough for discussions such as these.

[SAD]

Originally Posted by gepaine

I have no argument with the basic conclusions posted by JRTJH; however, I have seen calculations such as the following posted often, and I think they are not accurate:

"Now, take the advertised trailer "shipping weight" tongue weight of 610 lbs, add 60 lbs of propane, 50 lbs for one 12 volt battery, 100 lbs for the hitch assembly and your actual tongue weight for the EMPTY trailer is much closer to 820 lbs."

I contend that when you add weight to the trailer's tongue, the tongue weight is not increased pound-for-pound. I think roughly half of that additional weight is carried by the tires. So if you add, for example, 60 pounds of propane, then the tongue weight should increase by roughly 30 pounds.

Am I wrong?

Neither of you is right or wrong. Only the scale is right.

[GunDoc]

JRTJH,
Okay, now I am really confused…

The trailer dry weighs 6271, I’ll add 60lbs for propane, 100lbs for two batteries, 60 for the hitch 83lbs for 10 Gals of water (I’ll fill up at my destination) and 400lbs for food, clothing, etc. That totals 6974. Recommended tongue weight is 9-15% of total, loaded trailer weight. 12% would be near 850 (rounded up).

My truck has a payload of 1580lbs (150 driver) I weigh 200, so that reduces my payload to 1530, if the tongue weight is 850lbs, that leaves 680 for everything else. I would subtract about 400 from that number (two additional PAX @ 145 each and the rest misc), which reduces my available payload to a little under 300. Truck would be at approximately 6700. Add the 6700 to 6974 and you get 13,700 (rounded up) that’s 1300lbs below MAX GCWR

Of course I don’t want to tow at the MAX payload that is why I used the calculator at “Changing Gears” website. I used a safety factor of 15% and arrived at 6800lbs loaded. Your empty weight figure of 4000-4500lbs would equate to somewhere in the neighborhood of a 35-40% safety factor, or 60-65% of the truck’s MAX payload and less than 50% of the truck’s rated MAX towing capacity.

I towed a load that was right at 7000lbs from Tennessee to Western Washington State (in the middle of summer) over a number of mountain ranges with 2011 Chevy 1500 CC 4x4, 5.3ltr and 3.08 gears. It was rated 3000lbs less across the board than my current truck (6700 and 12,000) and I didn’t have any problems at all. The difference was in that instance I was towing a car hauler with a much lower profile and about 8 feet shorter trailer than the TT I am looking at. The car on the hauler was LOADED…Front and back seats, trunk and floorboards. The bed of the truck had a very large Pelican case, also loaded. Inside were me, my wife and a 150lbs Mastiff.

I can see where sway could be a problem; I don’t see where I am going to exceed any of the max load ratings for my truck.

[JRTJH]

In your first post, you stated you have 4 adult passengers. Now there are two.

Your calculations are somewhat flawed in that you're adding propane, batteries and hitch (220 lbs) into the cargo weight, then using 12% of that to figure your additional tongue load... ALL of that weight (at least 90%) is all positioned on the tongue, so it's not "cargo" to be calculated at 12%.

You're very conservative in stating that you're adding 400 lbs for food, clothing, etc. Somewhere in there you've got to add blocks, chocks, hoses, cords, jack, spare tire, tools, adapters, and the host of other "camping accessories" such as lawn chairs, weenie roasting sticks, patio mat, jumper cables, and the host of other things that become necessary after you realize you need them on most camping trips.

As I said, and as SAD said, the only way you're going to be convinced how much the tongue weighs and how much the trailer weighs is to take it to a scale, put it on the platform and read the meter.

Your truck will easily pull (well without damage, pull) at least the 9600 lbs, quite likely much more than that with little or no mechanical damage. The issue is doing it and staying within all the numbers.

You're using the factory shipping weight for an empty trailer with no propane, no hitch, no sway bars, no battery and no cargo and "supposing 220 pounds of propane, batteries and hitch" and adding 400 pounds of cargo, then using 12% of that 620 lbs to calculate your hitch weight. There's significantly more weight than 12% of 620 lbs that's going to show up on your tongue jack when you hitch up to go camping. All of the propane weight, hitch weight, battery weight and sway bar weight is within 3' of the hitch ball. Nearly 100% of that weight is directly positioned to be hitch ball weight applied to the truck's receiver.

Ask anyone here, you'll find that almost every 30 foot lightweight trailer when equipped and loaded for camping has a tongue weight of 800-1000 lbs. Find someone who has the same trailer, ask them for their weights and go from there.

As I said in the opening sentence of my first post, "The problem really isn't the ability to pull the trailer. There's enough HP and torque. The issue you're going to run into is payload and GCW."

[GunDoc]

I think you misunderstood my calculations…12% refers to 12% of the TOTAL loaded trailer weight, including propane, batts, gear, etc. 850lbs is approximately 12% of 6900lbs. Even at 950lbs tongue weight, I would be 200+ under the GVW for the truck.

I did say four adults, but more realistically there would be two and a teenager. The spare tire and hoses are already figured into the trailer weight, as per Keystone’s factory rep. That said, I could add an additional 300lbs of cargo and still be 1000lbs under the max CGWR.

I notice Gpaine (responded earlier in this post) is towing a 24RKS (dry weight 5600) with a 2007 Cadillac Escalade, which depending on the model has an advertised max towing capacity of 7600-8000. That’s 700 lbs less dry trailer weight than the 27RLSWE, and 2000 to 1600lbs less towing capacity than my GMC. A delta of 900 to 1300lbs!

If my truck rated at 7000lbs GVW and 15000lbs CGWR can only tow a 4000-4500lbs dry weight trailer that Cadillac should max out somewhere near 3000lbs dry??

I have camped before (spent 41 years in the Army). I do realize there are “must haves” and “extras.” I also realize you must save weight where ever you can.

As for asking someone with the same trailer, Placergoldman, who first responded to this post has the same trailer AND truck, albeit a 2013 model and just completed a trip from SoCal to Idaho and back and said he had no problems with the combo, with the exception of some high winds between Barstow and Victorville. I understand the high winds…I’ve spent many hours on the roads between Barstow, Victorville and Vegas while training at Ft Irwin (NTC).

[JRTJH]

I certainly hope you enjoy your future rig, I urge you to weigh it once you've got it home and loaded for camping. Good luck with the purchase.

[Ken / Claudia]

GunDoc,
Sounds like you have your mind made up, thats OK. The weight numbers will be close to max on payload. I am sure you be be as safe as possible traveling with family. Get over a DOT scale then you can to see true weights. If the truck has problem towing safety ask more questions on here. There are some types of hitchs that help control sway better than others, different tires have more or less max. wt. rating. At some point afew dollars spend on your truck may make it tow better if needed. Or start over with a heavier truck. Now, get out there Go camping.

[GunDoc]

Thanks to all that responded to my questions. I am not 100% sure I do have my mind made up. I do know that I will be close to max GVW of the truck (within 300lbs), but I think I’ll be fine as far as the combined weight goes. I should be around 1500lbs under the combined.

I do have another question…when figuring TOTAL combined weight am I correct in assuming you add the total GVW of the truck (with tongue weight, PAX and gear) to the total loaded weight of the trailer minus the tongue weight since it’s factored (carried) into the truck weight? I understand the TOWED weight would include the tongue weight.

[STLCG]

Like most have said you need to weight it to know your real weights. But going by the numbers given you should be fine. Just remember when towing a TT the key to a stable drive is to carry as high of a % of total TT weight on the hitch as possible. Your dry TT weights gives you a 9.6% hitch weight (squirrely), so you will want to add as much forward weight as your truck will allow. My last trailer (26BHS) had about a 12% hitch weight and was a little squirrely. My new trailer (31SQB), which ways 1400lbs more and is 7 feet longer, tows much more stable with about a 14% hitch weight.

Moderators FYI
I realize all trailers are different!!!! When weighing the added weights of propane and batt to the hitch weight of my 26BHS I came up with 35% of total weight of the batt and propane added to hitch. No where near close to 90%.

Before you guys attack please go out and check the numbers for yourself!!

[Festus2]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;132684].

Your calculations are somewhat flawed in that you're adding propane, batteries and hitch (220 lbs) into the cargo weight, then using 12% of that to figure your additional tongue load... ALL of that weight (at least 90%) is all positioned on the tongue, so it's not "cargo" to be calculated at 12%.

QUOTE]

First, I don't think that JRTJH was saying that the propane, batteries and hitch account for 90% of the total tongue weight. However, you may have interpreted this differently to mean that these three items account for 90% of the total weight on the tongue.

Secondly, the "moderators" (plural) are not attacking anyone. In this thread, one of the five forum Moderators participated and offered his suggestion to take the unit to a weigh scale as well as the reasons behind that recommendation. No one is being "attacked". For your information, four of the Moderators, including myself, were not a part of this discussion so for you to state that a member is being "attacked" by "you guys" aka Moderators is just plain wrong.

So, yes please, follow your own advice and check the numbers.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by STLCG

Before you guys attack please go out and check the numbers for yourself!!

Really? I don't believe anyone was "attacked" However your comment could be considered to come really close.

I really don't feel a need to respond to you, but think that your post does deserve a comment. First of all, anything that one moderator posts is "that moderator's comment" We are all individuals, live in different time zones and seldom are online at the same time. There is no "you guys club" that meets, gathers data and decides who "we are going to attack" next. It simply doesn't work that way. I'm speaking for myself now, not as a representative of the "you guys moderator club" when I say that first off, we are all members of this forum. We spend a significant amount of time on line dealing with the forum, all the SPAM, the new members from Pakistan, China, Iraq, India, and numerous places. We collectively (and often individually) read every post, review every new member, look for issues and try to keep things flowing without creating any "new issues". I may not agree with everything that the other moderators post, they may not agree with me. We may not agree with you and you may not agree with us. In the end, that's a part of any forum that has an open dialogue where members share their opinions, views, experiences as well as seek answers to their questions.

Each member here has an opinion, but you must realize that we also are members and also have an opinion. It may not be the same as yours, and that's OK. You've expressed your opinion, and that's great. Whether anyone else feels the same or not, you've had your say. Now let's get back to Keystone RV's and RVing.

[fred1609]

For me, I'll take information from anywhere. The difference a lot of members are gonna have different opinions. This is how we learn. I love reading thru the threads especially when I recognize that the member posting knows a lot more about weights than I do. I'm grateful for the info provided in these threads and I haven't seen a lot of "getting personal" in the forum. And that because we have great moderators and members that are respectful. Enough said.