Newbie Question

[Baysider]

Ok, I’ve been reading and calculating and my head hurts. I’m a long time tower of boats and 2-horse trailers. But we have now bought 2521 RL GT. Reading the threads here I have gotten the idea that the sales people at the dealer may not be especially reliable. Duh. So here is what I think and I wish for y’all to tell me how much I’ve bit off that can’t be chewed:

2003 Dodge Dakota 4.7L 4x4 Crew Cab. 139k miles Class III Hitch 2 5/16 ball.
Available payload using registration figures is 1,600 pounds (GVWR 7,000 lbs.).
Trailer tongue weight from dealer specs is 635lbs. That leaves me an available payload on the truck at 965 lbs. Total weight of fully loaded trailer is 7,000 lbs.

So what I get is since the trailer GVW includes the available payload 1,724 lbs. we should load our gear in the trailer not the truck. The truck should be able to move all this down the highway safely. True or not?

[chuckster57]

welcome to the forum

Auto and RV sales people are only interested in how much money they are putting in their pocket, that being said lets look at the numbers:

Your truck- The sticker in the drivers door says you have 1600 pounds? DO NOT use the registration as it may not pertain to YOUR vehicle. But lets use 1600 pounds.

You, the wife and kids and everything you will carry cannot exceed the 1600 pounds, that includes the tongue weight of the trailer and hitch. DO NOT use the hitch weight as that is BEFORE you add propane, battery(s). General rule on a bumper pull is 10% of GVWR or in your case 7000 pounds so 700 pounds.

That leave you with 900 pounds to load into the truck, How much do you and everyone else weigh? You dont need to post the weight, just calculate it in your head. Then all the stuff your going to carry, and even if you put it in the trailer it will affect the tongue weight. A good weight distribution/ sway control hitch will be close to 100 pounds, maybe a little less but 100 is a good number to use.

So now hyour down to 800 pounds for everything in the truck. Without knowing what all your going to carry and hwo much all the people weigh, I cant say for sure your going to be ok..but I do think your going to be close.

[flybouy]

Do yourself a favor and get yout truck weighed at the scales with everyone and everything you would have in it to go camping. . Subtract that scale weight and you have the remaining payload number. BUT, that would have been applicable 18 or more years and 139K miles ago when the truck was new. What condition is that truck in now? I'm not asking jow shiney the paint is but rather the drivetrain, the steering, the suspension, etc. Even with "regular maintenance" that truck has got to be getting tired.

IMHO a Dodge Dakota has No buisness towing a 7k travel trailer. We owned one years ago and it was a great little truck but it was just that, a little truck. Short narrow wheelbase pulling a box with a high center of gravity and a large sail area will not be a pleasent experience.

[sourdough]

Some things to consider:

Payload is 1600lbs from registration but sounds high to me for that vehicle - it is a mid sized pickup. And like some gvwrs that number could have been pulled from a hat.

GVW of the trailer is 7000lbs. so trying to cover your bases (loading) figure 13% of that = 910lbs. I'm going to use 1400lbs. for payload and think that still may be too high then minus the 910 = 490lbs. From that take approx. 100lbs. for a hitch = 390lbs. From that then take occupant weight, puppies, kids, tools, bbq etc. I suspect you will exceed that quite easily.

Now the kicker; a 30', 7000lb. 11' high RV (box) does not belong on the back of a mid sized truck. It is the perfect scenario for the "tail wagging the dog" situation....in fact encourages it. It's short and narrow and will allow that trailer to control the truck any time it wants to....and then there's trying to stop, which the truck won't be able to do either. Not a good match IMO.

[wiredgeorge]

Not sure there will be a payload placard on a 2003. The Dakota likely has a bit less than the 1600 lbs the OP intimated. The scales would be the place to see how happy a camper the OP will be. He likely won't.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Not sure there will be a payload placard on a 2003. The Dakota likely has a bit less than the 1600 lbs the OP intimated. The scales would be the place to see how happy a camper the OP will be. He likely won't.

My ‘94 Ford has a placard, not yellow but I think that sticker has been federally mandated for a while. As I recall even my ‘86 F250 had one.

[sourdough]

OP I just realized I did not welcome you to the forum but instead went straight to your question. First and foremost Welcome! My previous post is my take on the proposed combination of truck and trailer. I understand the excitement when you get drawn into one of those scenarios but you owe it to yourself and family to closely look at the numbers and objectively consider whether it is the right thing to do.

One thing I failed to mention is that your truck is 18 years old with 139k miles on it. The numbers we are discussing would overtax a brand new truck. At 18 years of age, and deterioration....I've already given my opinion.

[LHaven]

To answer your original question directly:
Gear stowed in your truck comes directly off your truck's payload budget.
Gear stowed in your trailer -- provided you don't overload its max weight and don't try to play games with your tongue loading (e.g., +300 lbs. in the trailer results in +40 lbs. at the tongue) -- adds only the tongue weight to your truck's payload budget. Essentially, you're using the trailer axles' budget to carry payload.

[Baysider]

Thanks to all of you! When we started out I told my wife we didn’t have enough truck. But, if we had bought the truck first, likely we would never have bought the trailer. Explaining your posts to my wife has convinced her this is not about me wanting a bigger truck. I have learned a lot in this exercise. And I will pay it forward should I encounter someone needing help.

We live in Coastal Virginia which is basically a flat plain. No interstates. I will drive cautiously likely annoying people around me. We have 3 RV parks we want to frequent with our Jeep Club crowd. All are within 70 miles of home We are late to the party for this season so trips will be few. By next spring hopefully we will be better fixed.

With all I have learned today I am much better off. Thanks again!

[chuckster57]

I’m glad you decided to come here and ask, and glad you didn’t get upset with the answers. Now that you know where you stand, you can take the needed steps to fix it. Enjoy and be as safe as you can.

[sourdough]

Some things you need to weigh as you look at doing this and some assumptions you've possibly made;

Yes, the gvw of the trailer includes the 17xx payload. The degree to which that affects the tongue weight depends on how/where you load the trailer. If all your storage is up front that 13% figure might be 15 or 16. If you try to load to the rear to avoid putting a load on your truck the tongue will become too light and you really will have a problem with stability.

Some of the realities are that you HAVE to load the things you need/want to enjoy camping in an RV - it's unavoidable. The truck is 18 years old so not adequate for that size trailer. 70 miles, 700 or 7....that does not make a difference; failures happen when/where they want to and at THAT time you have to have the equipment to be able to control it.....or not. Plowing head on into a family in a minivan on a 2 lane rural highway 10 miles from home because the trailer can't be controlled is no different than the same thing happening on an interstate 700 miles from home - and the distance has zero bearing on the probability of that occurrence. Keep that in mind as you go looking for that new, more capable truck tomorrow. Be sure you take all precautions to be safe until then and happy camping.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

My ‘94 Ford has a placard, not yellow but I think that sticker has been federally mandated for a while. As I recall even my ‘86 F250 had one.

I am pretty sure my 96 F250 didn't have any sticker but since it was a clunker (just like my 2006) it may be fallen off. Saw an article in a quick google search from the NY Times that said Ford started in 2000. Dunno for sure.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I am pretty sure my 96 F250 didn't have any sticker but since it was a clunker (just like my 2006) it may be fallen off. Saw an article in a quick google search from the NY Times that said Ford started in 2000. Dunno for sure.

I’ll take a look in the morning while the temps are only 2 digits.

[Northofu1]

Personally, I think your in 3/4 ton territory for that trailer. I've done the 1/2 ton 7500 lb TT and as you can see in my signature I traded it in on a 2500. The 1500 was 2 yrs old when traded. you will have a lot less weight worry about what's in the truck /what's in the trailer. JMHO
Good luck

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

I am pretty sure my 96 F250 didn't have any sticker but since it was a clunker (just like my 2006) it may be fallen off. Saw an article in a quick google search from the NY Times that said Ford started in 2000. Dunno for sure.

George gotta get those "extra strong specs" to see where that sticker may or may not have gone. These days, between magnifying glasses and all the other things to help us see, I have 3 bright LED flashlights sitting on the top of the piano trying to read small print, 3 different sets of sunglasses in case I go in bright light...well, it just gets better At least I don't need glasses to feel my holster on my right hip.....

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Northofu1

Personally, I think your in 3/4 ton territory for that trailer. I've done the 1/2 ton 7500 lb TT and as you can see in my signature I traded it in on a 2500. The 1500 was 2 yrs old when traded. you will have a lot less weight worry about what's in the truck /what's in the trailer. JMHO
Good luck

If your upgrading anyways go with the 350/3500 SRW, appearance, ride, mileage & price are all about the same as a 250/2500 but the payload will be significantly more for future RV upgrades.

[Baysider]

Once again, thanks for all your comments and the great welcome here.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Baysider

Thanks to all of you! When we started out I told my wife we didn’t have enough truck. But, if we had bought the truck first, likely we would never have bought the trailer. Explaining your posts to my wife has convinced her this is not about me wanting a bigger truck. I have learned a lot in this exercise. And I will pay it forward should I encounter someone needing help.

We live in Coastal Virginia which is basically a flat plain. No interstates. I will drive cautiously likely annoying people around me. We have 3 RV parks we want to frequent with our Jeep Club crowd. All are within 70 miles of home We are late to the party for this season so trips will be few. By next spring hopefully we will be better fixed.

With all I have learned today I am much better off. Thanks again!

It's good to see your reaction to the responses to your query. Many times folfs get upset at the messanger for delivering the news they don't want to get. I'd urge you to use extreem caution with that rig. It's not a matter of will you encounter handling issues but rather how severe they will be.

Many, many times we've read the rational similar to yours, "we won't take much", "we won't travel with the tanks full", "we only stay close to home", or "we won't travel on the interstates". These are all irrational arguments. Let's take a look at a few of them.

"We travel light, empty tanks, etc." I have yet to personally witness this and seriously question claims from someone that proclaims they do. This happens with a pop up because there's no other option, you're basically tent camping off the ground. You travel few days because that's all the supplies you can pack for. With a larger trailer it "feels like home" and will end up being outfitted "like home". The food, the drinks, the cooking "essentials", the linens, the clothing, the toiletries, etc. Think of it like packing an overnight bag for a plane trip for 1 night vs packing for a 10 day cruise onboard a ship.

"We don't travel that far". When you overload the truck tires, axles, suspension, cooling system, transmission and differential gears, brakes,etc., the effect is immediate. These are machines, there is no presence of surroundings or distance. After the first coiple of miles the running gear ( temps, pressures, stresses) are in full effect. The mechanicals have no awareness of where they are. These factors will not vary after reaching "operating norms" unless there's a failure of a component. You're just as likely to encounter wind, rain, etc. Close to home or 300 miles away. In your instance likely more pronr to wind and rain where you live. The only advantage is that you're likely closer to a hospital so it would be z shorter ride in the ambulance.

"We won't drive the interstates". Aside from the physics that speed is the same (i.e. 55 mph on a rural road is still 55 mph on the interstate) there are other disadvantages to traveling on rural roads. On the interstate highway the road is divided so less chance of a head on collision. All traffic is flowing jn the same direction so when the trailer starts swaying there's less chance it will hit oncomming traffic. There's also more room on the interstate with typically 2 or more travel lanes + shoulders. More room for a swaying trailerm, a shoulder to pull over to vs 18" of asphalt then a 2' drop into a ditch with trees beyound. Interstates typically have wider lanes, more gentle curves, and less grade changes. Being controlled acess roads you don’t have people pulling out from side roads or stopping completly to turn across traffic.

"Cautious driving" is of course necessary no matter what. But when you're towing such an unbalanced rig you can loose control at relativly slow speeds. Any drastic steering or brake inputs will have greater effects as the weight pulls and pushes in every direftion. Traveling down a rural road with vegitation and forrest mere feet from the edge of the pavement reduces the visibility and therefore the reaction time. Driving at 40-45 mph can present a false feeling of security. Drive around a sharp curve or have a deer jump out infront of you will cause a radical movement. If you are driving 40 mph then you are traveling nearly 60 ft per second. A radical manuver can easily cause the truck to get pushed uncontrollably by the trailer.

So I apologize for the length of this but my ojly motive is to make you aware of the very real possabilities. Can you tow it without incidence? Perhaps. Jow lucky sre you? For me personally I won't "bet my families safety or lives" on something that is high risk and easily preventable. If I was in the situation I would consider one of 2 "short term" solutions. First would be to rent a capable truck for the few trips you say are remaing this season. That would also give you opportunity to try different trucks with a "real time" experience towing YOUR trailer.

The second alternative will be more challenging in the opportunity. Find a seasonal site and have your camper towed to it. That would remove the pressure of being "forced" inuo buying a new truck during this difficult truck market environment. Whatever you decide I wish you well and stay safe.

[Baysider]

Went to the landfill scales where there is big digital display. 4,920 Lbs. Truck plus me.

I can go back tomorrow with the trailer and get the total bad news. Pull the truck on the scale and get the total value of tongue weight, truck, me, and the wife. When I signal the attendant will print me a weight slip. Then I pull the whole rig on the scale and get another weight slip so I can get a true weight of the empty trailer.

Using the 6016 GVW on the sticker I get 1069 pounds in true 18 year old available payload. 1/2 ton. So given this truck is too small, a full size half ton pickup is not going to be much better. Ill start at one ton and go from there.

I’m documenting here for those that might be doing research who are in similar situation.

[LHaven]

Had I known then what I know now, I would have skipped the 3/4 ton and gone directly to the 1 ton. Dealer assured me I had zero chance of finding a 1 ton in gas, and that was DW's requirement, but I'm told now I could have gotten one. So go for it.