Oblivious Haulers

[Dan Lockwood]

I have an acquaintance in MI that we spent some time with over the 4th weekend. He and his wife are good friends with my nephew and niece. About two years ago my nephew had an auction to get rid of some family items and I met this guy and his wife then.

My nephew told him that I had just picked up a new to us toy hauler and we had, at the time, a '12 RAM DRW to tow with. The first thing this guy said was that I didn't need that big of a truck. I told him that I had a large toy hauler. He said he did too, but he hauled it very well with his new 1/2t Chevy 4x4 short box. He added that he put air bags in and that gave him all he needed. He's person that does not accept facts to counter his pre-conceived ideas.

So this past weekend we were at their campsite and he has a nice toy hauler, double axle with a 14' garage single bath. No basement up front and no generator. The gross was 11995# on the sticker. I did the 23% math and came up with 2760#. Not bad for a lighter 5er I guess.

I asked if I could look in his truck at his sticker numbers and he said no problem. Previously he had said that the RV dealer said it was NOT going to be an issue with his truck and the new toy hauler. He also said that he didn't believe the RV guy as he was probably telling what he wanted to hear. He went to his truck dealer and ran the numbers by them. He got from them a thumbs up, no problem pulling the toy hauler. Well we all know that tow about anything, but we shouldn't...

I looked at his payload sticker and it was 1868#. Plus he has a snow plow hook up installed up front.

I told him that the way he hauls all loaded up most of the time that his pin weight was probably close to the 2760# and his payload "empty" of his truck was only 1686#. That's 1,074# over MAX payload without you or your wife or fuel, hitch etc.

He then said that it pulls great, no worries. He mention that the towing limit was 12,500# on his truck and that the RV only weighs 12,000 max. I told him that was for "trailer towing", not fifth wheel towing.

He was just oblivious to my counter numbers and will continue to haul with the same irresponsible mind set until he upgrades his truck in a couple years or has a BIG accident.

I've read here that the police are now taking into account payload of the vehicle and the weight of the trailer/fifth wheel in the case of accidents. If in his case he was in a BAD accident, would his insurance company be able to exclude coverage for a known overloading situation as this?

Just thought I would share how some people will not learn until it's too late.

Thanks.

[sourdough]

Dan I don't know what would happen in the bad accident. I figure it would depend on a lot of variables and come out 50/50....maybe. BUT, at the end of the day what responsible person would put his family and future in that kind of situation? I know that answer.

I think lots of folks buy combos that have no business being together then come up with (dream) excuses to make it OK because it pulls it. I would prefer law enforcement start taking them off the road vs accidents but as we all know it will be the latter.

[Vinnie]

I tell ya- I wish I knew then what I know now. If I was still working and able, I'd be more than happy to make some weight police stops and order them out of service, or just have the entire thing impounded as an unsafe vehicle. I've met very few cops in my time who even have the knowledge to start that conversation, much less find a place to pull over a large combination and handle business. Low-hanging fruit gets the numbers that management wants to see, and fewer furious "law-abiding" RV owners calling the office with their complaints.

[Getn off]

Originally Posted by Vinnie

I tell ya- I wish I knew then what I know now. If I was still working and able, I'd be more than happy to make some weight police stops and order them out of service, or just have the entire thing impounded as an unsafe vehicle. I've met very few cops in my time who even have the knowledge to start that conversation, much less find a place to pull over a large combination and handle business. Low-hanging fruit gets the numbers that management wants to see, and fewer furious "law-abiding" RV owners calling the office with their complaints.

I hear ya, but if the police were to impound all dangerous vehicles on our roads currently, the lots would be full (here in FL) within the first 10 mins.
As much as it pains me to see, as well as most on this site I believe, just not a damn thing is gonna change.
Troy

Ps. Thanks for your service btw.

[Vinnie]

Originally Posted by Getn off

I hear ya, but if the police were to impound all dangerous vehicles on our roads currently, the lots would be full (here in FL) within the first 10 mins
...
Ps. Thanks for your service btw.

That's funny right there, don't care who you are!

Thank you- I was happy to do it then, and wish I still could!

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Dan Lockwood

I have an acquaintance in MI that we spent some time with over the 4th weekend. He and his wife are good friends with my nephew and niece. About two years ago my nephew had an auction to get rid of some family items and I met this guy and his wife then.

My nephew told him that I had just picked up a new to us toy hauler and we had, at the time, a '12 RAM DRW to tow with. The first thing this guy said was that I didn't need that big of a truck. I told him that I had a large toy hauler. He said he did too, but he hauled it very well with his new 1/2t Chevy 4x4 short box. He added that he put air bags in and that gave him all he needed. He's person that does not accept facts to counter his pre-conceived ideas.

So this past weekend we were at their campsite and he has a nice toy hauler, double axle with a 14' garage single bath. No basement up front and no generator. The gross was 11995# on the sticker. I did the 23% math and came up with 2760#. Not bad for a lighter 5er I guess.

I asked if I could look in his truck at his sticker numbers and he said no problem. Previously he had said that the RV dealer said it was NOT going to be an issue with his truck and the new toy hauler. He also said that he didn't believe the RV guy as he was probably telling what he wanted to hear. He went to his truck dealer and ran the numbers by them. He got from them a thumbs up, no problem pulling the toy hauler. Well we all know that tow about anything, but we shouldn't...

I looked at his payload sticker and it was 1868#. Plus he has a snow plow hook up installed up front.

I told him that the way he hauls all loaded up most of the time that his pin weight was probably close to the 2760# and his payload "empty" of his truck was only 1686#. That's 1,074# over MAX payload without you or your wife or fuel, hitch etc.

He then said that it pulls great, no worries. He mention that the towing limit was 12,500# on his truck and that the RV only weighs 12,000 max. I told him that was for "trailer towing", not fifth wheel towing.

He was just oblivious to my counter numbers and will continue to haul with the same irresponsible mind set until he upgrades his truck in a couple years or has a BIG accident.

I've read here that the police are now taking into account payload of the vehicle and the weight of the trailer/fifth wheel in the case of accidents. If in his case he was in a BAD accident, would his insurance company be able to exclude coverage for a known overloading situation as this?

Just thought I would share how some people will not learn until it's too late.

Thanks.

Well sad to say, but his rig likely does tow well. It being a GM 1/2 ton likely a gas engine so his biggest issue is getting moving. Interesting that the 5er doesn’t have a basement, that would likely reduce pin to about 20% or less of GVW, so about 2,400#, still over payload.
Towing and stability depending on tires on the truck could be decent to very comfortable. I towed for over four years at 1,500# to 1,700# over GVWR and never had white knuckle moment.
As I have stated before a 5ers greatest asset is also it’s greatest liability, that is it’s inherently stable towing and handling.
Yes, I now tow with a DRW, and yes even more stable, but never a towing issue before other than a Cummins 5.9 with maybe 280 HP and 610 ft lb., 5 speed manual and 3.55 rear.
I never encouraged other to do as I did, but without a trip to the scales most are obvious to payload issues, just toss on a set of bags.
My biggest reason for getting the bigger TV was being in an accident and being overweight, and being sued even if it wasn’t my fault.

[jasin1]

I think it is more to do with buying beyond your means then anything else… someone wants the biggest fifth wheel or trailer they can get and doesn’t have the money to buy a proper tow vehicle….it’s like being able to buy a yacht but not able to afford the engines for it.
I’ve worked in huge houses where it seems the people can’t afford to furnish it….whole sections of the house look like a dorm room or no furniture at all.
The allusion of everything being “good” is all some need to feel secure.
I had popup campers and old campers and moved my way up over the years…a collection of older pickups and used trailers.

Now it seems no one wants to start on the first rung of the ladder…they want to get the same pay, houses and toys of everyone who worked there way up the ladder before them.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well sad to say, but his rig likely does tow well. It being a GM 1/2 ton likely a gas engine so his biggest issue is getting moving. Interesting that the 5er doesn’t have a basement, that would likely reduce pin to about 20% or less of GVW, so about 2,400#, still over payload.
Towing and stability depending on tires on the truck could be decent to very comfortable. I towed for over four years at 1,500# to 1,700# over GVWR and never had white knuckle moment.
As I have stated before a 5ers greatest asset is also it’s greatest liability, that is it’s inherently stable towing and handling.
Yes, I now tow with a DRW, and yes even more stable, but never a towing issue before other than a Cummins 5.9 with maybe 280 HP and 610 ft lb., 5 speed manual and 3.55 rear.
I never encouraged other to do as I did, but without a trip to the scales most are obvious to payload issues, just toss on a set of bags.
My biggest reason for getting the bigger TV was being in an accident and being overweight, and being sued even if it wasn’t my fault.

I hope you don’t take this wrong Russ but actually you are encouraging others to tow grossly overweight..everything about this post seems to confirm everything will be ok BUT you may have a legal issue . Even when I bought my drw and said how much better it tows you seemed surprised and questioned my statement….even had me second guessing myself and I was a 1000 over my payload.
The facts are the facts about towing…you may have gotten away with it but you could also be a very experienced driver and able to counter any handling issues…someone less experienced may quickly get out of control in the same scenario.
Hope we can all get along and you don’t take this as a personal attack but I’d maybe think about how some people are scouring the forums looking for just one person to confirm they are “ok” ….your posts may be encouraging people more then you realize

[markcee]

This tale reminds me of my nephew's (recently remedied) situation. He sent me the pic below of his rig. Just about 39' long, 13,600 GVWR, putting approximately 3K in his F150 short bed. Like many stories here (my own included) he knew nothing about payloads, GVWR, axle ratings and so on. What he did know was that both the RV and car dealer gave the rig a thumbs up. I tried to pass on what I've learned here, explaining how he was grossly overloading the truck and he ended up Taking Care of Business (sorry, I'm at Graceland for a few days....) He now has a brand new Ram 2500 gasser long bed with 4.10s. I tried to talk him into a 3500, but this at least beats the hell out of the F150!

[flybouy]

The old adage about leading a horse to water ......

Unfortunately I beleive the vast majority of car salesman, RV salesman, and LEO don't have a clue about weights with regard to RVs. My guess if he went to a TRUCK dealership he may have received different advice. As for law enforcement I doubt the majority would know where to start. I'm very pro law enforcement but there just isn't much knowledge about it among them. Many LEOs have very limited knowledge about firearms past the ones they are trained on.

The best way to "control" it would be to have them run thru the weight stations. But nobody wants that to happen so likely never will. The best we can do is point thembin direction of the watering hole. It's up to them to drink.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by jasin1

I hope you don’t take this wrong Russ but actually you are encouraging others to tow grossly overweight..everything about this post seems to confirm everything will be ok BUT you may have a legal issue . Even when I bought my drw and said how much better it tows you seemed surprised and questioned my statement….even had me second guessing myself and I was a 1000 over my payload.
The facts are the facts about towing…you may have gotten away with it but you could also be a very experienced driver and able to counter any handling issues…someone less experienced may quickly get out of control in the same scenario.
Hope we can all get along and you don’t take this as a personal attack but I’d maybe think about how some people are scouring the forums looking for just one person to confirm they are “ok” ….your posts may be encouraging people more then you realize

Brian, my point is that many towing large 5ers will never know that they are exceeding payload until they hit the scales. The towing characteristics of 5th wheels will NOT be a warning, like it is many times with TT.

What scares me now days is the tow ratings that new trucks have. Our 2016 Ram 3500 HO/Aisin DRW 3.73's, has the following tow and payload numbers MAX PAYLOAD 5,410.58LBS, MAX TOWING 25,210.58LBS, got to love the decimal places! This is specific for my trucks VIN.
The numbers for yours are likely higher, your tow rating is likely in the 30,000# range.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Brian, my point is that many towing large 5ers will never know that they are exceeding payload until they hit the scales. The towing characteristics of 5th wheels will NOT be a warning, like it is many times with TT.

What scares me now days is the tow ratings that new trucks have. Our 2016 Ram 3500 HO/Aisin DRW 3.73's, has the following tow and payload numbers MAX PAYLOAD 5,410.58LBS, MAX TOWING 25,210.58LBS, got to love the decimal places! This is specific for my trucks VIN.
The numbers for yours are likely higher, your tow rating is likely in the 30,000# range.

Your right…it was enlightening for sure to visit a cat scale the first time…it’s funny how optimistic and how much I under estimated my actual weights

[Ken / Claudia]

My experience with LEOs is, none know everything. Many get basic training in most subjects and when they go to work in a division they get better training. I use this example many times.
When shopping for shoes would you go to the produce department and ask the produce guy how to fit or buy shoes. Or would you ask the person working in the shoe department.
At a PD would you ask a arson det. about vehicle weights or get the person who weights trucks. Usually the traffic division will have someone with the answer and in really big PDs the motor cops for example might not have a clue as they only write tickets on moving violations 99% of their time.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Brian, my point is that many towing large 5ers will never know that they are exceeding payload until they hit the scales. The towing characteristics of 5th wheels will NOT be a warning, like it is many times with TT.

What scares me now days is the tow ratings that new trucks have. Our 2016 Ram 3500 HO/Aisin DRW 3.73's, has the following tow and payload numbers MAX PAYLOAD 5,410.58LBS, MAX TOWING 25,210.58LBS, got to love the decimal places! This is specific for my trucks VIN.
The numbers for yours are likely higher, your tow rating is likely in the 30,000# range.

Originally Posted by jasin1

Your right…it was enlightening for sure to visit a cat scale the first time…it’s funny how optimistic and how much I under estimated my actual weights

Talk about eye opening was the first time we weighed the 2016 DRW ready to tow. We scaled right at 10,000#, so DW, me over 150#, 30# dog, in bed tool box (loaded) and hitch ate up 1,411# of our available payload. This is what many miss, they see a 4,200# payload and figure they should be good with 3,500# pin. Well in our case we would take 1,411# from that leaves us 2,800# for our 2,700# pin not much wiggle room, that is the reason DRW.

[Ken / Claudia]

Scales are a good thing, I once scaled a f250 with a truck camper in the bed many years ago. I was good on rear axle wt. but the tires at that time were D rated and each were 200 lb over their max wt. rating. That was a easy fix with Es that gave me 200 lbs under max tire rating. But sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you weight in.

[flybouy]

I think we are going thru a time period with RVs similar to what I witnessed in boating back in the 19080's - 90's. Back then we were avid boaters and the onset of the DINK (Dual Income No Kids) generation and the proliferation of the "Dot Com" money set boat sales on fire. There were no "tests" for seamanship or navigation, all that was required was money and you could by a very large boat. I can't count the number of times I witnessed poor seaman ship and downright dangerous maneuvers those folks pulled off. They started out of the gate with the biggest, sometimes fastest boat with zero knowledge or experience. The waterways were busy and finding dock space was at a premium. New dealers were popping up everywhere and there were "boats a plenty" setting in driveways. And then the economic bubble burst.

Now days I see a similar situation with RVs. On the open roads I tend to see a lot of class C MH speeding, weaving, and obviously not driven by experienced operators. Similar observations with the large TT and Fivers. Typically new truck and new trailer and often apparently overloaded. It used to be with boats and RVs most folks started out small and progressed over time (and therefore more experience) to a larger toy.

These days, as was in the past boating days, some folks start out buying a 1/2 ton fully decked out truck thinking they now have a "big boy toy" and they want the big shiny toy to pull behind it. As it was back then with the boat dealers, there are plenty of RV dealers to take their money and send them on their way. Be patient, this time will pass and the industry and folks camping will self correct.

[Sarge2]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

My experience with LEOs is, none know everything. Many get basic training in most subjects and when they go to work in a division they get better training.

At a PD would you ask a arson det. about vehicle weights or get the person who weights trucks. Usually the traffic division will have someone with the answer and in really big PDs the motor cops for example might not have a clue as they only write tickets on moving violations 99% of their time.

You are absolutely correct. Most road officers are not trained as Motor Carrier Officers. That is a whole other training situation. That is why we have Investigations, Juvenile Div, School Resource Officers and Road Patrol. Each is a whole other form of training above what they learn as first working Road Patrol. Our department does not do Motor Carrier enforcement. We leave that to State and County Agencies that have the personnel, equipment and time to devote to it.

[FordF350]

The sad truth is that some RV’ owners have no business hauling some of the rigs out on the streets. Undersized tow vehicles , inexperience, lack of maintenance and lacking common sense can be deadly.
RV Dealerships want to sell trailers and don’t always have your best interest or safety in mind when they are having you sign the paperwork on that new rig .
Lastly, technically many RV owners should have a recreational Class A license for the weight and lengths of some of the large modern fivers on the road today .
However, the average patrol officer is not going to be stopping and impounding your average retirement couples dreams because they are technically overweight for their Class C license. Also , if law enforcement was writing tickets for RV owners that are overweight or using a improper tow vehicle. The RV industry and owners would have a fit and I’m sure they have powerful voices politically.
Unfortunately, the only time that information is going to be figured out is after a major accident .

[larryflew]

I would have to say that 80% or more of people I have talked to when traveling already owned a truck when they bought their 5th wheel and although I didn't ask I am sure the dealer always said they where fine. With misinformation being so rampant in this industry It's almost a wonder anyone is under weight ever. I was lucky and did NOT own a truck B4 and bought a combo that had been together forever.

[dutchmensport]

Don't you understand? Don't you understand? If it's a pick-up truck IT will tow "it". Why? Because it's a pick-up truck! You must be crazy to consider things like "weight", after all, this is a pick-up truck! It can haul or tow anything!... hell.... even the space shuttle!

That is TRULY the mind set of some people. And no matter what you say, try to correct them, or show them a better way, some people are just idiots because they are RIGHT and how dare you say they are not!

Does this sound like your friends nature: The choleric temperament explained here