Towing weights

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

According to the "old advertising claims" converting to aluminum body panels saved about 700 pounds in weight. Ford "used those pounds to build stronger frames from heavier gauge steel, installed stronger drive lines and 4 wheel drive components, resulting in an overall weight reduction of about 350 pounds.... So, the actual vehicle weight which is typically heavier than a comparable RAM truck (or was before aluminum body panels) was only reduced by about half of the "aluminum weight savings".

I understand that Ford did their last frame update in 2019 (I think), but Ram did one in 2003, and 2013. My DD's 2004 Ram 3500 DRW has a fully boxed frame, my 2001 didn't, I don't know when Ford went to a fully boxed frame.

[gearhead]

Only way you're really going to know is visit a scale. Scale it the way you have it now, then move the arsenal to the garage and scale again.
If you're under the truck payload, you're under. I wouldn't do backflips to get 1500 pounds under vs. 500 pounds under.

[johnnybadger]

I have a question about the RV USA statistics on hitch weights (referenced above). One of the responses seemed to indicate that this is the pin weight of the RV when it is dry. Is this true, and can someone rely on this metric? If so, does the pin weight conversion ratio (e.g. dry pin weight divided by dry total weight, or 25% in the above example) remain constant as you move to maximum weight (17,000 times 25% gets you 4,252)? I am considering a GD Solitude 375 RES. RV USA says it has a hitch weight of 2,900, a dry weight of 14,200, and a GVWR of 16,800. Using above logic would give me a 20.4% weight conversion ratio, and a 3,431 hitch weight at maximum capacity. I get confused with some of this discussion, and, as always, appreciate the counsel of this forum.

[notanlines]

John, you can pretty much rely on about 3500-3600 pound pin weight with your max load. But of course, CAT is your friend. How can you go wrong for
$12.00?

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by johnnybadger

I have a question about the RV USA statistics on hitch weights (referenced above). One of the responses seemed to indicate that this is the pin weight of the RV when it is dry. Is this true, and can someone rely on this metric? If so, does the pin weight conversion ratio (e.g. dry pin weight divided by dry total weight, or 25% in the above example) remain constant as you move to maximum weight (17,000 times 25% gets you 4,252)? I am considering a GD Solitude 375 RES. RV USA says it has a hitch weight of 2,900, a dry weight of 14,200, and a GVWR of 16,800. Using above logic would give me a 20.4% weight conversion ratio, and a 3,431 hitch weight at maximum capacity. I get confused with some of this discussion, and, as always, appreciate the counsel of this forum.

The advertised pin weights are as it left the factory without batteries and propane. Loaded pin weights vary on how the 5er is loaded. They can range on average between 20% to 25% of the loaded 5er, there are as always exceptions some heavier some lighter. Our 5er runs right at about 22%, and we have a small basement.
The only way to know is to go to a scale. In Oregon ODOT scales are left on even when not open for operation, the scale display is visible from the drivers seat, makes scaling easy. Most are large enough that you can drop your trailer and just scale the TV.

[CWtheMan]

I've provided this information more than a couple of times in this forum. I write all my posts from scratch because new members are asking.

All RV trailer manufacturers MUST provide a recommended tongue weight to comply with vehicle certification (49 CFR part 567). People often want to argue it's a dry tongue weight. GVWR is maximum weight. The following paragraph is from the FMVSS standard that outlines the vehicle manufacturer's use of the recommended tongue weight.

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2: On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

A reminder; axle manufacturer individual axle weight certification does not have to match the vehicle manufacturer's vehicle certified GAWRs. The GAWR values depicted on the vehicle certification label are the only official vehicle certified values.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I've provided this information more than a couple of times in this forum. I write all my posts from scratch because new members are asking.

All RV trailer manufacturers MUST provide a recommended tongue weight to comply with vehicle certification (49 CFR part 567). People often want to argue it's a dry tongue weight. GVWR is maximum weight. The following paragraph is from the FMVSS standard that outlines the vehicle manufacturer's use of the recommended tongue weight.

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2: On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.

A reminder; axle manufacturer individual axle weight certification does not have to match the vehicle manufacturer's vehicle certified GAWRs. The GAWR values depicted on the vehicle certification label are the only official vehicle certified values.

As an example: My 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS lists a pin weight of 1230 and is equipped with Lippert 4400 pound axles. The GVWR is 10,000 pounds. Doing the math, the axles and pin equal a "whopping" 30 pounds more than the above "GUBMINT requirement"..... 4400+4400+1230=10,030

However, I've posted the email from Keystone Customer Service as many times as CW has posted his FMVSS regulation cite. The Email from CS states the advertised weight in the factory brochures is "shipping weight and shipping pin weight which does NOT include propane or battery. The weight of empty propane tanks is included in the shipping weight.

To make this "NON-ARGUMENTATIVE", when a manufacturing company advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT/PIN WEIGHT that is not a FMVSS required item. What the company puts on the weight sticker ON THE TRAILER is specific to that trailer and must meet the above requirements, NO TWO TRAILERS WILL WEIGH THE SAME THING... When one has two air conditioners, or a table/chairs and the next has one air conditioner and a booth dinette, they obviously can't both weigh the same....

Where RV USA gets their specifications is questionable (unless it's from the Keystone factory data. If they're "winging it and making their own specs" then who knows if they are acccurate....

However, FMVSS requirements are not ADVERTISED SHIPPING WEIGHTS.....

[CedarCreekWoody]

John your weights and axles are identical to mine. I feel the axles are marginal at best. I've already had one replaced with a bent spindle (fortunately under warranty.)

[Javi]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

As an example: My 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS lists a pin weight of 1230 and is equipped with Lippert 4400 pound axles. The GVWR is 10,000 pounds. Doing the math, the axles and pin equal a "whopping" 30 pounds more than the above "GUBMINT requirement"..... 4400+4400+1230=10,030

However, I've posted the email from Keystone Customer Service as many times as CW has posted his FMVSS regulation cite. The Email from CS states the advertised weight in the factory brochures is "shipping weight and shipping pin weight which does NOT include propane or battery. The weight of empty propane tanks is included in the shipping weight.

To make this "NON-ARGUMENTATIVE", when a manufacturing company advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT/PIN WEIGHT that is not a FMVSS required item. What the company puts on the weight sticker ON THE TRAILER is specific to that trailer and must meet the above requirements, NO TWO TRAILERS WILL WEIGH THE SAME THING... When one has two air conditioners, or a table/chairs and the next has one air conditioner and a booth dinette, they obviously can't both weigh the same....

Where RV USA gets their specifications is questionable (unless it's from the Keystone factory data. If they're "winging it and making their own specs" then who knows if they are acccurate....

However, FMVSS requirements are not ADVERTISED SHIPPING WEIGHTS.....

And I'm still looking for the pin weight is listed anywhere on the official trailer documentation.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Javi

And I'm still looking for the pin weight is listed anywhere on the official trailer documentation.

Certification just requires the vehicle manufacturer to publish the recommended tongue weight. It's just a one time weight and it must be valid. Catch 22; the vehicle manufacturer gets to say what is and isn't valid about their products - as long as the end results satisfy the building standards and governing body regulations.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Certification just requires the vehicle manufacturer to publish the recommended tongue weight. It's just a one time weight and it must be valid. Catch 22; the vehicle manufacturer gets to say what is and isn't valid about their products - as long as the end results satisfy the building standards and governing body regulations.

Pretty much a CYA number to meet the certification numbers, ideally the minimum the pin will weigh. Once normally loaded it will only go up.
The only case I could see it getting lighter is a TH with a heavy side by side, one tank of propane and a battery, and a few grocery items and a couple changes of clothes.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Certification just requires the vehicle manufacturer to publish the recommended tongue weight. It's just a one time weight and it must be valid. Catch 22; the vehicle manufacturer gets to say what is and isn't valid about their products - as long as the end results satisfy the building standards and governing body regulations.

As far as I know if it ain't on that Tag I posted it don't count to the law..

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

As an example: My 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS lists a pin weight of 1230 and is equipped with Lippert 4400 pound axles. The GVWR is 10,000 pounds. Doing the math, the axles and pin equal a "whopping" 30 pounds more than the above "GUBMINT requirement"..... 4400+4400+1230=10,030

However, I've posted the email from Keystone Customer Service as many times as CW has posted his FMVSS regulation cite. The Email from CS states the advertised weight in the factory brochures is "shipping weight and shipping pin weight which does NOT include propane or battery. The weight of empty propane tanks is included in the shipping weight.

To make this "NON-ARGUMENTATIVE", when a manufacturing company advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT/PIN WEIGHT that is not a FMVSS required item. What the company puts on the weight sticker ON THE TRAILER is specific to that trailer and must meet the above requirements, NO TWO TRAILERS WILL WEIGH THE SAME THING... When one has two air conditioners, or a table/chairs and the next has one air conditioner and a booth dinette, they obviously can't both weigh the same....

Where RV USA gets their specifications is questionable (unless it's from the Keystone factory data. If they're "winging it and making their own specs" then who knows if they are acccurate....

However, FMVSS requirements are not ADVERTISED SHIPPING WEIGHTS.....

Your trailer passed that certification test by 30# (4400+4400+1230=10,030). Most of the other things you mentioned are in other FMVSS standards.

During a FMVSS rules committee meeting in 2010, the decision was made to account for propane weight in GVW. Here is the wording; "If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW".

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by Javi

As far as I know if it ain't on that Tag I posted it don't count to the law..

When the trailer manufacturer is building RV trailers they must follow ALL minimum standards outlined in FMVSS. The standards told them the way to pass certification, how can they bypass a direct requirement without getting into a recall situation?

There is a coverall on that label; this vehicle conforms to all US Federal motor vehicle safety standards in effect on the date of manufacture.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Your trailer passed that certification test by 30# (4400+4400+1230=10,030). Most of the other things you mentioned are in other FMVSS standards.

During a FMVSS rules committee meeting in 2010, the decision was made to account for propane weight in GVW. Here is the wording; "If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW".

The point I was making is that a "brochure specification applies to every vehicle with that model number and depending on options, the specifications can vary by as much as 400 or 500 pounds, possibly even more. The actual "VIN data plate" lists the weight certification for that VIN". The advertising brochure does not.

It's the same thing with the Ford brochure. Do you really believe that every F250 off the line has the "advertised payload" ??? Or the same vehicle weight, or even the same GVW ??? The "ADVERTISING BROCHURES" are not the "gospel for any individual trailer" and do not "meet any FMVSS standard" So, Keystone is "perfectly legal" in not including the weight of propane or battery or spare tire or second air conditioner in the "specifications found in any brochure".... Now, when they certify a VIN to weigh a specific amount and stick a label on the side of the trailer,then that certification must "comply with federal regulations"....

But the bottom line is that no advertising brochure certified anything and does not have to meet "FMVSS requirements" I'm telling you, they are two entirely different pieces of paper and two entirely different criteria. ONE (VIN certification label) must meet FMVSS standards, the other (a RV brand advertising brochure) in no way, no shape and no fashion is required or capable of meeting any "specific VIN specification"... Just like the Ford, GM, or RAM brochure does not reflect the "specific weight and specific payload of every truck in that model year, neither does the Keystone brochure.... THEY (Keystone) sets the criteria for their advertising, not FMVSS.

[JRTJH]

Javi,

When looking at the photo of the certification label, I was trying to get it to "match up with your Avalanche" and it just wasn't working...

Looking at the axle certifications, 5200 each and the pin weight (from advertising specs) yours doesn't even have the 30 pounds extra that mine has. Your 333MKS GVWR of 12350, axles of 10400 and a pin of 1690, comes to 12090, which is 260 pounds below the GVWR.

So, they (Keystone) must be using a different pin weight than the advertising or the axles wouldn't support the GVW....

Now you've got me wondering where they come up with the amount "shifted to the pin" when certifying a trailer weight. Hmmmmm

[Javi]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Javi,

When looking at the photo of the certification label, I was trying to get it to "match up with your Avalanche" and it just wasn't working...

Looking at the axle certifications, 5200 each and the pin weight (from advertising specs) yours doesn't even have the 30 pounds extra that mine has. Your 333MKS GVWR of 12350, axles of 10400 and a pin of 1690, comes to 12090, which is 260 pounds below the GVWR.

So, they (Keystone) must be using a different pin weight than the advertising or the axles wouldn't support the GVW....

Now you've got me wondering where they come up with the amount "shifted to the pin" when certifying a trailer weight. Hmmmmm

I say we let CW explain it

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Javi

I say we let CW explain it

I'll have another piece of strawberry cheesecake while we wait

[flybouy]

I look at it like the window sticker in a new car. The sticker lists the Price, the fuel milage, and the "carbon footprint". I will never spend the amount on the price, I have never seen the fuel milage listed, and I have no way of quantifiying the "carbon foot print".

So I make certian I'm not over any of the "MAX" numbers on truck or trailer, with truck payload max extrapolated from rated max truck weight minus scale weight. The CAT scale gives me real world numbers and I can then use my Sherline tongue scale to make adjustments if I need to fine tune them.

I know from experience that on MY trailer with anything less than 11% on the tongue the trailer will not behave behing the truck. JMMV

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Now you've got me wondering where they come up with the amount "shifted to the pin" when certifying a trailer weight. Hmmmmm

It's hypothetical and a mathematical figure they can use to pass vehicle certification. After all, they are the vehicle manufacturer and can make any changes to the vehicle specifications that are within the boundaries of FMVSS standards.

Keystone often makes mistakes with certification labels. They have suffered numerous recalls for those mistakes.

When the label doesn't pass the vehicle certification requirement, they recertify the vehicle's GAWRs and adjust the vehicle cargo capacity to conform and replace all related labeling.