Complete Novice - Need Advice - Towing a '13/14 Sprinter 316BIK - Page 2

GACamper · 10-16-2013, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allmi01

One more set of thoughts on al this.

I used to won a Sportsman 27' TT which had a GVW of 8000 lbs. I towsed this with a 99 Expedition. DId it work, yes. Towed from Chicago area to Washington coast, down thorugh Oregon, up to Yellowstone and back to home. No issues.

A few months later, both behicles were totaled in an accident when the truck and trailer rolled over. Too much weight to handle when you are not fully awake / alert. I had my family on board (wife and 5 kids). We all walked away mostly un-hurt (a few scratches). I thank God daily for his mercy on that one.

Since then, I tow with TV's which can handle the weight and length of TT's much better than the Expedition did. I love my Excursion (214000 miles and going strong) but, if the F3500 were running, I'd tow with that over the Excursion. Simply put, more stale and tail doesn;t try to wag to dog.

Short wheel base behicles and long TT's make a real dangerous combination.

JMHO.

Mike

Mike,

Glad your family is OK! Thank God for comprehensive insurance, right? lol. Something like this scares the crap out of me. I'd never be able to live knowing I did something that hurt one of my kids or my wife. SOOO I'll be upgrading my TV. I've found some very attractive '05, 6-L diesel Excursion 4x4's that I may be looking into trading my Sequoia for - depending on if it'll be "enough" to handle the larger TT's or not.

-Doug

**JRTJH** · 10-16-2013, 06:49 PM

One concern with the 2005 Excursion is payload. The GVW is around 9000 lbs and the diesel 4x2 weighs in at 7300 while the diesel 4x4 weighs 7700. That gives you a payload of only 1300 lbs with the 4WD Excursion in its standard form. Granted, it can tow like an ox, and carry all your family in relative comfort, but you're still going to be pushing the GVW with almost any RV with a tongue weight of over 6 or 7 hundred pounds.

One of the reasons the Excursion became a dinasour is because it just couldn't carry the payload it needed to carry to remain competetive even with the F250 crew cab. The F350 dually simply outcarried it even though both could conceivably tow the same weight (given the same diesel, transmission and rear drive). Part of that is customer demand for "cushy ride" and part is because of the design of the rear suspension with long springs calibrated for that ride.

So, do your homework, use the numbers that you know you have and that you suspect you'll add with the RV and compare different vehicles.

You "KNOW" how much your family weighs, you know how much stuff the kids drag into the car when you travel, you know what else is added. Take that figure, and add 150 lbs for a WD hitch. That's your "known weight" that you will always have in the truck. Then add 11% to 15% of the GVW of the trailer you're considering.

Those two figures when added together, need to be less than the "available payload" of the tow vehicle you are considering. If you're "close" then only you can decide, but if you're 6 or 7 hundred pounds over, you already know you're in trouble before you even start hitching up.

Look around, take your time. Realize that camping season, even in GA isn't going to be ramping up until around Easter, so you have time to study the situation and come to some good "ground rules" for what you need and what will/won't work for your family.

GACamper · 10-16-2013, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

One concern with the 2005 Excursion is payload. The GVW is around 9000 lbs and the diesel 4x2 weighs in at 7300 while the diesel 4x4 weighs 7700. That gives you a payload of only 1300 lbs with the 4WD Excursion in its standard form. Granted, it can tow like an ox, and carry all your family in relative comfort, but you're still going to be pushing the GVW with almost any RV with a tongue weight of over 6 or 7 hundred pounds.

One of the reasons the Excursion became a dinasour is because it just couldn't carry the payload it needed to carry to remain competetive even with the F250 crew cab. The F350 dually simply outcarried it even though both could conceivably tow the same weight (given the same diesel, transmission and rear drive). Part of that is customer demand for "cushy ride" and part is because of the design of the rear suspension with long springs calibrated for that ride.

So, do your homework, use the numbers that you know you have and that you suspect you'll add with the RV and compare different vehicles.

You "KNOW" how much your family weighs, you know how much stuff the kids drag into the car when you travel, you know what else is added. Take that figure, and add 150 lbs for a WD hitch. That's your "known weight" that you will always have in the truck. Then add 11% to 15% of the GVW of the trailer you're considering.

Those two figures when added together, need to be less than the "available payload" of the tow vehicle you are considering. If you're "close" then only you can decide, but if you're 6 or 7 hundred pounds over, you already know you're in trouble before you even start hitching up.

Look around, take your time. Realize that camping season, even in GA isn't going to be ramping up until around Easter, so you have time to study the situation and come to some good "ground rules" for what you need and what will/won't work for your family.

John,

Just to see if I'm doing this right, would you mind working me through this:

GVWR of the Excursion is 9,200lbs (factory/door sticker specs).
Truck's curb weight is: 7,770lbs
Giving me a cargo capacity of 1,430lbs (does this include fuel weight?)
(max) GVWR of the TT (316BIK) is 11,175 lbs.

Using 13.5% of max trailer weight gives me a tongue weight of 1,509lbs.

Myself and my family (allowing for increase in age of the children or the DW or I's laziness and fat growth) is about 850lbs +/-. This also will account for the cooler, the (small) pets, and the two books of DVD's our kids carry in the car. (clothes, food, and everything else will be in the trailer).

Add the tongue weight + the "precious cargo" weight together, and were at 2,359lbs cargo weight for the Excursion (and I don't think this accounts for the weight of fuel). Throw in another 150 for the WDH (Hensley or Propride), and we're looking at 2,509lbs of cargo weight +/-? Correct?

If this is the case I'm still plagued by a 1,079lbs deficit in weight! Man, I can't win for loosing here! SH**!

This is also assuming I load the trailer to the max, and I seriously doubt we'll be able to stuff 2,472 lbs worth of "stuff" into the trailer. When I moved into my first house from my first apartment, I barely had that much weight in furniture and stuff. 2,472 lbs is a LOT of stuff! I would think a more safe assumption would be 1,000 lbs at the absolute max (assuming no more water weight than what the fresh tank can hold and the weight of waste in the black/gray tanks between dumps is not included). If figuring in water/waste weight we could probably (safely) assume a total w/"cargo" weight of the trailer (at any given time) to be ~10,142 lbs.

That gives me a tongue weight of aprox: 1,369lbs.

NOT considering the weight of fuel and occupants in my vehicle, I now have a SURPLUS of cargo weight of only 61 lbs. This would be ok, if my Boxer Terrier was going camping by herself, but....

Somehow I dont think this is accurate math. I could be mistaken and actually doing it right, and if that's the case, how does Keystone sell any of these things? The only folks that can buy them are those with small families that can all fit in extended cab F-250's. If that's the case, then why get a TT at all. Go for a 5er and get the extra room for practically the same price!

After all, the ONLY reason we're look at TT's and not 5ers (what we really want), is because of our extra kid. Hard to cram 4 kids into the extended cap of a F-250! :-) (screw the safety aspects. At that point it's down to sanity! All 4 of my rugrats in that close of proximity of one another, and they'd not make it to the campsite. If they haddn't killed each other, I'm sure Mommy or Daddy would have pinched off a head or two by the time we got there anyway lol).

Seriously though, I MUST be missing something? I've gotta be, right?

Care to double check my math? I'd like to know what I did wrong, if anything. Sorry for being stupid here. Gotta learn sometime, right?

Especially considering there's LOTS of folks out-there running this very setup and doing it with ease. I'm just not getting something here and it's annoying the snot out of me.

Thanks for your help!

Doug

316BIK Specs (off Keystone's website):

Shipping: 8,703 lbs
Carry Cap: 2,472 lbs
Hitch: 1,015 lbs.

I'll rework the math once I Know I'm doing it right for the smaller 311BHS:

Ship: 8,260
Carry: 2,735
Hitch: 835

RGene7001 · 10-16-2013, 07:50 PM

Excursion is essentially a hybrid between 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton Forun. It is very heavy, with high centre of gravity. It has questionable handling and high rollover risk even without trailer. Will attaching 10000 lb make it any more stable? You will need Hensley anyway. This is what I found:
"http:// http://www.supermotors.net/clubs/fordexcursions/articles/article_1/index.php"]

I believe that going from independent suspension to quite crappy leaf springs is a step back, not forward. Yes, the Seqioya's rear overhang is far from from ideal but I would give it a try with Hensley and if it doesn't feel safe or manageable I would definitely know what to do.
I am certainly for ultralight trailers if they are well made. There is no evidence that Bullets or Passports have any structural problems, they have same issues as heavier TTs. Perhaps there will be less risk of tire failure because they are loaded much less. I just see no point in carrying 2000-3000 lb more, no matter what tow vehicle I got.
It is very sad to be involved in double rollover, no questions about it. But I don't see the evidence ( facts, statistics, logical reasoning, test data) behind statement that heavier duty TV would prevent it. It's very emotional and highly speculative. Why 98-99% of people get into fatal accidents WITHOUT any trailers behind? It is very naive to assign the blame for any RV accidents just to the size of the TV. Moreover, this approach prevent is from looking deeper into the issues and making RVing safer. Any high riding vehicle has higher rollover risk, I have a visor sticker warning about it. Duallies may be better, but only because of wider stance
Perhaps, Ferraris don't roll over. They just get cut in half if run into the tree. But few people tow with them

GACamper · 10-16-2013, 09:10 PM

Thanks Gene,

I'm still counting my options. Trying to figure out what they are at this point. There's very few campers out there that fit our needs, and the ones that do (still researching brands/campers as well), and getting more and more frustrated.

There's got to be something that I'm missing. Seriously, as there have to be people using their SUV's to tow the larger campers with. I'd love to hear from more of them. :-) I can't tell you how many very large trailers I've seen on the road being pulled by folks in SUV's in my class and that of the Excursion on the interstate.

I wish I had a friend that had this trailer and a Hensley hitch that I could test out my truck and an Excursion with just to see how it felt and handled. Better yet, I just wish I had a better idea of what I was doing and getting into than I do now.

*frustrated*

- Doug

Ken / Claudia · 10-16-2013, 09:28 PM

Rgene,
Crashs are caused by many different reasons. We as RVers are lucky that as a whole motoring public (all vehicles) on the roads, rvs are still a small % of the total. I have seen/read in Oregon thru training and work that the #1 reason on a RV crash is driver falling asleep. The problem with a vehicle combo rv crash is the extra weight invloved vs. just a pickup. Now add that rv on the back of a pickup and crash them into a car etc. There is data that shows how weight changes the damage just as speed changes the damage. Either number inceases and damage/injury/ death inceases. There are alot of rv crashs due to side winds and unable to stop when needed. Stopping could be driver misjudges safe distances as much as unable to stop safely due to a too heavy of RV with tow vehicle.
I am only making a guess here but, over the years the makers of ALL pickups keep making them bigger and heavier. I think that IS to pull bigger and heavier trailers of all types just not rvs and do it without overloading the truck.

RGene7001 · 10-16-2013, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

Rgene,
Crashs are caused by many different reasons. We as RVers are lucky that as a whole motoring public (all vehicles) on the roads, rvs are still a small % of the total. I have seen/read in Oregon thru training and work that the #1 reason on a RV crash is driver falling asleep. The problem with a vehicle combo rv crash is the extra weight invloved vs. just a pickup. Now add that rv on the back of a pickup and crash them into a car etc. There is data that shows how weight changes the damage just as speed changes the damage. Either number inceases and damage/injury/ death inceases. There are alot of rv crashs due to side winds and unable to stop when needed. Stopping could be driver misjudges safe distances as much as unable to stop safely due to a too heavy of RV with tow vehicle. About any vehicle will/can roll over, all it takes is drive any vehicle at highway speeds into a soft shoulder, hit the brakes and turn the wheel hard.

I certainly agree that state laws re GWVR should be followed and I am for best possible geometric stability, weight distribution and sway control. Not to mention the reasonable speed. Towing Capacity is a third party recommendation with no legal meaning and following it will no guarantee good performance.
Moreover, I definitely concur that 20000 lb combination can go much more damage than 10700 lb.
I am not a lawyer but due to my profession I deal with potential liability, lawsuits, risks on everyday basis. The system is really about maloccurence, not malpractice. It exist first of all to compensate victims, provide trial lawyers with good livelihood, create illusion of social justice,etc. Finding The Ultimate Truth may be important in the movies, but not in the real world. If you or me will kill/ injure somebody, towing or going solo, the case will be settled for full amount nor less and no more. The jury will have very little sympathy to a guy towing for fun, no matter how big is the truck. They will not go after retirement savings or other assets. Here in Florida I guesd 95% of people are not collectable anyway, and those who are have their assets protected. I am skipping the questions about DWI and other truly criminal negligence and you should know why!

**JRTJH** · 10-16-2013, 10:25 PM

GACamper,

You didn't miss much in your calculations. The net weight of the Excursion includes a full tank of fuel and 150 lbs allowance for the driver. After that, everything must be deducted from the remaining payload (ior added to the vehicle weight) So, the net weight of the Excursion is 7700 lbs, That's full of fuel. If you weigh 200 lbs, add another 50 to that weight. Then add your wife, kids, the DVD's, dog and the coloring books, etc. That's now the "weight of your Excursion" Deduct that total from the GVW and what's left is the maximum for your hitch and trailer tongue.

Hope that makes some sense to you. And yes, as I said earlier, the Excursion can tow like an OX, but it simply doesnt have the payload to carry a trailer in the 35 ft + class. Actually, no SUV does. With a 1300 lb tongue weight, you'd be pushing my F250 to it's limit with 6 people and a Hensley hitch. And I've got a 2700 lb payload.

Face it, 35 ft trailers are in the F350 class for tow vehicles. That being said, there are some diesel F350/C3500 vans with 9+ passenger seating that will support a 1300 lb tongue weight. GM recently stopped producing passenger vans for private use, but you're looking at 4 or 5 year old vehicles, maybe you should consider a F350 diesel LONG wheelbase van. I've got a friend in Witchita that has 6 kids and he tows a 32' trailer behind his F350 fifteen passenger van and the kids pretty much have more than enough room. When you knock on his trailer door in the morning, there's bodies scattered everywhere. In beds, on the sofa, on the dinette, on the floor in pallets and even tucked into bed with mom and dad. But, they travel and spend time together. Back home each kid has their own bedroom and they have a bath between each two bedrooms, so there's 6 kids, 6 bedrooms and 3 baths for them to share. In the RV, they don't even all have a bed, but they get along just great.

I'm just concerned that you may get the idea from here that it's OK to "maybe just try the Sequoia" with a 35' trailer. I strongly believe that if you do, you're taking a greater risk that I'd ever want to put my family in.

Rving is fun, it's a great way to spend vacations, but when you do it by jeapordizing your family's safety, it's not good.

Maybe rethinking the RV purpose will help? You "live" at home, you really don't need to take all of those conveniences on the road with you. King size beds, room to "shoo" the kids to another part of the RV behind a door so it's quiet for you to watch the news, a place for everyone to play on rainy days and still give you and DW room to relax..... Is an RV for a family vacation really supposed to be that luxurious? or is home supposed to be that way and the RV is where you learn to live closer so you can go visit those special places....

We all make concessions when we RV. My DW and I live in a 2500 SqFt house with 3 baths and 3 bedrooms, we have lots of places to "escape from each other" at home. When we RV, we're in 280 SqFt with one bath, one TV, one room to "live in" and a small bedroom with only a bed and a closet. There's no chair in the bedroom to go read a book, no place to escape the DW's chatting when I'm trying to study something that's complex and it's raining.....

Maybe you should think of an RV as a bunch of beds and a kitchenette with a "make do" bathroom so you can "get by on the road" while you travel to those neat places you want the kids to see.

There'll be time enough later for you and the DW to enjoy the comforts of a more luxurious RV, but with 400-600 lbs of kids (within the next few years) you're just not going to find an SUV that will carry them and tow a 35'+ RV.

Just my opinion, yours and others may differ......

Ken / Claudia · 10-16-2013, 10:27 PM

Rgene,
I agree with you and know what you said is true. Only difference is I was taught (years ago) that with lawsuits placed against you. If you did not have a mortagage on your property the lawyer would attampt to get it on a big case. Although I never seen or heard of it happening.

GACamper · 10-16-2013, 10:45 PM

OK... Done some more research. According to the Towing Guides on Trailer-Life, the Excursion that I'm looking at has a 11,000 lbs towing capacity with a Gross weight (weight of TT and vehicle) of 20,000lbs. I've seen the same numbers on several different places, so I (***)ume them to be fairly accurate. So this is within Spec of the TT.

Here's the math:

Trailer Ship Weight = 8,703 + 2,472 (Carry Capacity) = 11,175 lbs (GROSS)

Truck = GVWR (9,200) - 7,770 (curb) = 1,430 (Cargo Carry Weight).

11,175 + 9,200 = 20,375 Gross Weight (GCWR).

Likelihood of packing all 2,472 lbs worth of crap into my TT while towing it?

umm.... ZERO (I would suspect). - All my goods from my first 1bd rm apartment barely weighed that much, and I had a good number of antiques and SOLID built furniture at that time too (not much of that IKEA crap). I had to weigh my ditty-move shipment per Navy Requirements and remember it because I was surprised I had over a "ton of stuff"

I would suspect something like maybe 1,200 lbs at most being packed into the TT at any given time? What do you guys have packed into yours?

Now on to the tongue weight issue (at present 13.5% of 11,175 lbs is 1,509 lbs (+/-) so a max tongue weight of 1,509 lbs is suspected. Empty it's 1,015 lbs:

Can I increase the Excursion's cargo capacity weight by swapping out the rear springs with a set from a junkyard F-250 or F-350 and aftermarket the shocks?

Engine and drive train of the Excursion is the same as the F-250, except Ford "compromised" the suspension thinking the Soccer Mom's would want a softer ride.

Doing that would essentially make the Excursion identical to the F-250 in way of hitch weight and cargo tolerance, wouldn't it?

Just some ideas I wanted to run by you more knowledgeable folks! I'm not a car-guy, so I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there.

If modding this way does make it like the F-250, then I should be golden for this trailer in every way using the 6.0L (turbo diesel) as a TV, right?

Thanks!

- Doug

GACamper · 10-16-2013, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

GACamper,

You didn't miss much in your calculations. The net weight of the Excursion includes a full tank of fuel and 150 lbs allowance for the driver. After that, everything must be deducted from the remaining payload (ior added to the vehicle weight) So, the net weight of the Excursion is 7700 lbs, That's full of fuel. If you weigh 200 lbs, add another 50 to that weight. Then add your wife, kids, the DVD's, dog and the coloring books, etc. That's now the "weight of your Excursion" Deduct that total from the GVW and what's left is the maximum for your hitch and trailer tongue.

Hope that makes some sense to you. And yes, as I said earlier, the Excursion can tow like an OX, but it simply doesnt have the payload to carry a trailer in the 35 ft + class. Actually, no SUV does. With a 1300 lb tongue weight, you'd be pushing my F250 to it's limit with 6 people and a Hensley hitch. And I've got a 2700 lb payload.

Face it, 35 ft trailers are in the F350 class for tow vehicles. That being said, there are some diesel F350/C3500 vans with 9+ passenger seating that will support a 1300 lb tongue weight. GM recently stopped producing passenger vans for private use, but you're looking at 4 or 5 year old vehicles, maybe you should consider a F350 diesel LONG wheelbase van. I've got a friend in Witchita that has 6 kids and he tows a 32' trailer behind his F350 fifteen passenger van and the kids pretty much have more than enough room. When you knock on his trailer door in the morning, there's bodies scattered everywhere. In beds, on the sofa, on the dinette, on the floor in pallets and even tucked into bed with mom and dad. But, they travel and spend time together. Back home each kid has their own bedroom and they have a bath between each two bedrooms, so there's 6 kids, 6 bedrooms and 3 baths for them to share. In the RV, they don't even all have a bed, but they get along just great.

I'm just concerned that you may get the idea from here that it's OK to "maybe just try the Sequoia" with a 35' trailer. I strongly believe that if you do, you're taking a greater risk that I'd ever want to put my family in.

Rving is fun, it's a great way to spend vacations, but when you do it by jeapordizing your family's safety, it's not good.

Maybe rethinking the RV purpose will help? You "live" at home, you really don't need to take all of those conveniences on the road with you. King size beds, room to "shoo" the kids to another part of the RV behind a door so it's quiet for you to watch the news, a place for everyone to play on rainy days and still give you and DW room to relax..... Is an RV for a family vacation really supposed to be that luxurious? or is home supposed to be that way and the RV is where you learn to live closer so you can go visit those special places....

We all make concessions when we RV. My DW and I live in a 2500 SqFt house with 3 baths and 3 bedrooms, we have lots of places to "escape from each other" at home. When we RV, we're in 280 SqFt with one bath, one TV, one room to "live in" and a small bedroom with only a bed and a closet. There's no chair in the bedroom to go read a book, no place to escape the DW's chatting when I'm trying to study something that's complex and it's raining.....

Maybe you should think of an RV as a bunch of beds and a kitchenette with a "make do" bathroom so you can "get by on the road" while you travel to those neat places you want the kids to see.

There'll be time enough later for you and the DW to enjoy the comforts of a more luxurious RV, but with 400-600 lbs of kids (within the next few years) you're just not going to find an SUV that will carry them and tow a 35'+ RV.

Just my opinion, yours and others may differ......

John,

You're amazing, and if you were standing in front of me I'd kiss you. Tongue an all.. Yeah, it'd happen! BRACE YOURSELF BIG BOY!! LOL

You just opened up a whole new can of worms. I'll look into those vans! To be honest, I like that idea even more than the Excursion. I could carry a few of my kids friends with us (they're getting to that age where they want their friends to tag along everywhere we go lol). AWESOME IDEA!

You don't have to worry about me winging it with my Sequoia. That's NOT going to happen. I'd risk my own hide like that (in my jump out of airplanes, scuba a night, and play war games with South American Cartel days anyway), but not that of my wife (no matter how bad she gets under my skin), or my kids (I might tie them to the roof, or ziptie 'em to the tires though lol - naaah they'd like that too much).

Thanks again for the other suggestions! You're tha-man, Hoss!

Doug

GACamper · 10-17-2013, 05:45 PM

These replies are geared to others received in a similar thread I started intending as an introduction to this forum, not necessarily as the discussion thread it became, and this is my attempt at conjoining the two to a centralized venue. See the other thread (here).

Everyone's input in both this thread as well as the other has been invaluable! I can not express enough the appreciation I have for all your candor and the time you guys have put in to help educate me! This has truly been a pleasurable, and quite unexpected, experience for me!

I've looked at what must be a good 50/60 different campers (albeit online only thus far.... sucks being stuck 8000 miles away in Afghanistan), but out of all of them there have been very few that would work for my family, or knowing myself and my wife as i do, would keep us happy over the long run.... We've done a LOT of traveling and pretty much have a handle on the things we need, and the things we want in a camper. Unfortunately, all the campers I can find that would work for us all require a TV with similar capabilities to that of Ford's F-350 (ish) and similar class.

This is what has led me to look at the Excursion, as the "X" is the only SUV with the engine, drivetrain, and wheelbase capable of pulling the 35.8' monsters we're looking at - at least with safety and absolute security.

I've looked at similar campers from some of the other brands, and every one of them are missing something or the other that we want to have. Either will be missing a bunk in the back (that we need), don't come in the 3 bunk + trundle config and only have that stupid couch in the rear under the 2nd bunk ( ..ahem.. Premier series... cough... ).... Or they don't have a bathtub in the bathroom (ever try washing your dogs, that don't want to be clean, off in a shower? I have, and it's NOT fun).. Granted a bathtub isn't a deal breaker, but it's something I want a lot. Or the trailers dont have a quality outdoor kitchen (that's a much have).... The list keeps going on...

I've found a few Campers that will work for us, but they are either CRAZY expensive, or look like they were built out of legos (KZ's campers - also crazy expensive).

All the trailers I've found that wouldn't leave us wanting (too terribly), all require a beast of a TV to yank the sucker down the road, or are 5ers!!!! It's annoying..

I haven't dismissed the Excursion as the TV of choice just yet.... It appears the only thing the truck is missing is the requisite gross cargo capacity. If that wasn't an issue the Excursion would be the ideal TV by all other standards, wouldn't you say?

What I'm trying to find out now is if it is possible to swap out (or beef up) the 2005, 6.0-L, Diesel, Excursion's suspension to the same specs as that of a similarly powered F-350. There's plenty of junkyards with totaled F-350's that I could buy the suspensions out of. I just don't know how involved it would be to port that suspension over to the Excursion and what it would do to the X's unhitched ride quality.

I assume I would only have to do that to the rear end as the trailer even with a quality WDH like the Hensley or Propride, would not add any weight to the front axle. If anything physics dictate it would take weight away from the front tires/axle. But I'm only an ex High school student (many years ago), so what do I know? :-)

I'm also looking into the Ford Econoline F-350 Pax vans as referenced by a fellow "bored" member lol.

What are all your thoughts on this? You guys think it would be hard to swap out the suspension springs and shocks/struts/etc.. for those of a F-350 slick-side? I wouldn't think so as the X is essentially a neutered F-250, and I'm pretty certain the suspensions are mostly interchangeable between the 3 vehicles (but I'm NOT a "car guy", so I actually don't know squat about what I'm talking about...)

Thanks again, everyone!

Doug

Doug

GACamper · 10-17-2013, 07:25 PM

Take a look at this boana, Gents!

http://www.automatedsafetyhitch.com/

It's a small trailer that connects to the TV that a 5er connects to! It allows an SUV (like the Excursion) to tow a 5th Wheel! It's got it's own breaks, the attachment point is directly over the axle, so it should take most of the hitch weight off the TV.... I know theres GOT to be a draw back to this thing, but it looks AWESOME!

If it is up to snuff, it would enable us to get the camper we ultimately would like to have... which is a 5er.

PLEASE TELL ME SOMEONE HERE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH ONE OF THESE! lol

TandE · 10-18-2013, 12:49 AM

The draw back is I am almost positive that the automated safety hitch itself is $10,000 or right around that price.

Also on the suspension about swapping the x to f350 components. There really is not much difference between f250 and f350 components. The f350 has taller blocks on the rear axles and that's about it. Also even if you swapped out to heavier duty suspension it still will only have a payload of what it was before, the only ones who can change those numbers is the manufacturer.

TandE · 10-18-2013, 09:27 AM

I know this may be out of the question cause the prices are high but you might be able to find one used. http://www.customautosbytim.com

He makes new excursions out of trucks so you can use a f350 truck and have an suv seating. Or even six door conversions at that. This way you can keep the f350 ratings for towing (minus the added weight to the vehicle for payload rating) but have the seating for your family. Just another idea to throw out there.

GACamper · 10-18-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TandE

The draw back is I am almost positive that the automated safety hitch itself is $10,000 or right around that price.

Also on the suspension about swapping the x to f350 components. There really is not much difference between f250 and f350 components. The f350 has taller blocks on the rear axles and that's about it. Also even if you swapped out to heavier duty suspension it still will only have a payload of what it was before, the only ones who can change those numbers is the manufacturer.

Thanks! I looked into the price of the ASH, and it's a AWESOME idea, but it's cost prohibitive. At least until I get to the point where the kids are out of the house and it's just the wife and I tootling around the Country driving each other bonkers!

I've also found a lot of material on beefing up the rear suspensions of the Ex with F-250/350 parts. What I think I'm going to do do is trade my Sequoia in for '05, 6.0-L, 4x4 "Limited" Excursion. Something with around 150,000 (or less) on the ODO, well maintained engine, etc...

I'll install the modified V/B Code Springs from an F-250 along with Hillwig's "Load Helper" system giving me and additional 1,000lbs (over the stock V/B spring increase) that'll kick-in when the load is enough to warrant it while not effect too much of the ride quality unhitched. I'll also upgrade to Bilstein (sp?) Shocks all round and if necessary with the TT attached, if I experience to much rear sag, I'll go with some airbags to level it back out. However with a CC brooding on 3,500lbs (after the spring upgrades), I'm not sure if I'll even need the airbags at all.

I've also decided that I'll go ahead, bite-the-bullet, and buy a refurbished or 3-rd party sale Hensley Arrow WDH (maybe the Pro Pride, I don't know yet - both seem to be very similar hitch setups, but I'm still learning about them).

I know beefing up my suspension wont "technically" increase my cargo capacity as it's referenced on the factory documentation, but neither does engine mods increasing horsepower to the same. What is factory "technical" and what is "real-world applicable" are two different things. Otherwise nobody would mod anything.

With the modified V/B code springs from a F-250 alone, I should see an increase in cargo capacity from the woosie factory levels to ~3,000 lbs (+/-) in gross weight allowance. My unloaded ride quality will go from feeling like a squishy "float" to a more solid "truck" feel without shaking out my teeth like F-350's are known to feel like (at least my Uncles 350 does). If I add a "load helper" on top of the V/B springs, I should not only nullify the tongue weight issue of the heavier trailers (in reference to additional PAX, pet, and gear weight), but should also diminish (substantially) most tail end sag (I would think) when attached to the TT. As the Load Helper spring absorbs the first 1,000lbs of the hitch weight before the V/B code springs really come into play at all. Doing this I should have another 1,000lbs (at least) to play with AFTER the 1,500lbs tongue weight consideration for PAX, Pets, gear, etc...

The rear axle of the '05 is the same that's used on the slick-sided F-350, so it's more than up to the task of supporting the weight. The upgraded Blistien (sp) shocks will even out the ride quality under load pretty nicely as well (I assume). At most, I'll need to add a set of Hellwig Front/Rear anti-sway bars (if the stock '05's are not up to the task), and tighten up the steering box (or replace it w/aftermarket) in addition to the suspension.

Now considering the Excursion is already so heavy to begin with, adding the hitch weight and cargo/PAX to the equation, the truck will have a gross wight very close to that of the TT itself. This will help with "trailer sway" substantially (It's easy physics at this point - two opposing but equal forces working against one another will cancel each other out - E=MC2 anyone?).

Throw in the Hensley or Pro Pride, into the mix, that both essentially make the trailer and truck a single unit in way of applicable forces and I should only even begin to notice trailer sway under the most arduous/extreme of conditions (saving the ridiculously asinine of imaginative conditions).

As far as the trucks actual towing capacity goes... The TT I'm looking at has a GROSS weight of 11,179 lbs. (that's with 2,400+lbs being added to it in cargo). The TV has a towing capacity of 11,000 lbs.

But in all actuality who in Sam-hill would load up ~1.2 TONs of weight into their TT's? HALF that would be a HEAVY, LOADED FOR BEAR, we aint NEVER coming home, trip loadout!

Seriously. Even if I filled up the clear water tank completely, the gray with straight soap (screw soapy dish water), and the black with nothing but wet cow crap, stuffed every piece of clothing my entire family owns, and all our Celephalon pots and pans, all our solid SS silverware, and all my wife's (heavy as heck) good ceramic china, AND we used exclusively think glass beer steins to drink out of, stocked up for 2 months worth of food (for us and our 3 mutts + constantly PO'd cat), our neighbors irate beta fish and it's 5 gal tank, and a Honda Eu2000 generator thrown in for good measure, upgraded all the TV's in the TT to 50" monsters, and threw in a few sand bags to use as wheel chalks, we'd still not be near the max 11,109 gross weight.

In all actuality, fully loaded, we'll be somewhere around 10,100 lbs (+/-). I'll be sure to hit the CAT scales just to be sure, but I'd bet anyone here my rather large paycheck we wont be over 10,500 of that!

So, total TV setup, weight-wise, will have a working surplus of around 1,000lbs of cargo capacity and at least a 1,000lbs of towing capacity and that's fully loaded with everything we'll need in the camper, 4 kids, 1 Nanny (ours lives with us full time), 1 DW, me, 1 small, 2 medium dogs, 1 cat (that I could SERIOUSLY live without - anyone want a "great" cat? I'll FedEx the lil shi** to you! Free of charge! lol), 7 bicycles, and a medium cooler + kid's toys...

I've gone over the math time and time again, and worked it from all sorts of different angles. Spent hours on here, Diesel Stop, and various other Ford Excursion forums over the last few days, and I seriously can't think up or find a single reason why this truck (with the above setup) wouldn't more than haul with ease, safety, and with gross aplomb-literally any (bumper pulled) travel trailer Keystone (and practically anyone else for that matter) makes/sells.

(Yes, I understand the wheel base length to TT length recommendation, but also understand that this is a "catch all" recommendation. It's not gospel, and it's not "all-inclusive". It does not take into physical considerations in way of physics or fluid/aerodynamics. Gross weight ratios of truck to trailer and hitch-point movement/distribution go a VERY long way in determining the effects of trailer sway, maneuverability, and overall controllability of TV:TT setup given any interfering condition at any given time.)

Unless there is considerably convincing argument as to why this is a bad setup, or factual argument to the ineffectualness of this configuration's setup, I'm thinking my decisions made at this point. I can't, in all good reason, not think (given my limited knowledge of the subject), that this is the ideal setup for our needs, and would be anything less than extremely safe for me, my wife, and our children (even the 4-legged slobbering ones).

What say you all?

It's the same setup as if I was towing the 316BIK with a 6.0-L, 4x4, Powerstroke Ford F-350, Super-Crew Standard Bed, non-duely full sized truck with a Hensley or Pro Pride. Except this setup I'll be doing it with the ride quality of a F-250.

(and at a SUBSTANTIALLY less expense)

Quote:

I know this may be out of the question cause the prices are high but you might be able to find one used. http://www.customautosbytim.com

He makes new excursions out of trucks so you can use a f350 truck and have an suv seating. Or even six door conversions at that. This way you can keep the f350 ratings for towing (minus the added weight to the vehicle for payload rating) but have the seating for your family. Just another idea to throw out there.

Yeah, I found that same website yesterday, and BOY are those some GOOD LOOKIN and CRAZY-COOL rigs! But you're right. WAAAYYYY outside even the realm of what I'm willing to spend on ANY vehicle! At those prices the truck better come with it's own built in Thai hooker (and that's before the cost of the donor vehicle?! lol (after forking out $50 g's for my Sequoia, I'll NEVER again pay that much for another vehicle! EVER - Unless it's got Porsche or Aston Martin written across it's backside).

Thanks everyone for your help! Unless I'm way out in left field in my thinking with all this (as I'm sure will get pointed out if I am), I think my decisions made! All your help has been SO VERY MUCH appreciated and I am sincerely in all your debts for the amazing education you've all taught me regarding TV:TT's! You guys are simply AWESOME!

Sincerely,

Doug

RGene7001 · 10-18-2013, 06:13 PM

C'mon Doug, don't make me upset!
Don't say bad things about cats!

I have an orange gangster Fluffy and my DW says always that his character is exactly like mine! He stays with mother in law during our trips, however, because his weight, as well the weight of his litterbox and food will push me over the GVWR and smoke my transmission

While you don't want to participate in uphill races with such combo, I wish you the best of luck! Don't put all seven bikes on the rear bumper, we just talked about it recently!

Festus2 · 10-18-2013, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GACamper

What say you all?

Thanks everyone for your help! Unless I'm way out in left field in my thinking with all this (as I'm sure will get pointed out if I am), I think my decisions made! All your help has been SO VERY MUCH appreciated and I am sincerely in all your debts for the amazing education you've all taught me regarding TV:TT's! You guys are simply AWESOME!

Sincerely,

Doug

Doug -

On one hand it appears as though you are still asking for input from our members - "What say you all?" - and on the other it seems as though you now made up your mind as what TV you will be getting - ("I think my decision's made, I've appreciated your help.")

Are you looking for more feedback or suggestions for a TV from our members or ????

summerhummer · 10-18-2013, 08:20 PM

Hi Doug,
I am a newbie to this keystone forum but not to TTs, I saw a 316BIK at the CG yesterday and asked the owner what his loaded weight was, he indicated 10,800 he had 2 kids the wife himself and the dog. I didn't ask for specifics but wrote the real world weight down. If you look at my sig I too was a fan of the 316BIK and wanted one. I was pretty much sold from the internet however Went to Camping world a few weeks back. After sitting in it, I think the island takes up too much space. I probably could have gotten along with that but for me the Stove in the slide is too low for my liking.
I am now looking at the 311 BHS. Tow Vehicle is a 2006 8.1L burb with 4:10 rear. I think I am just making it with this vehicle. The 316BIK would be a stretch. The good news is in 2014 it was supposed to have gone on a slight diet. I am looking seriously at the 311 and a portable island. Your mileage may vary....BTW I am in the South east not many mountains here but being from Ga you know you can find em if you look in North Ga.

RGene7001 · 10-18-2013, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Festus2

Doug -

On one hand it appears as though you are still asking for input from our members - "What say you all?" - and on the other it seems as though you now made up your mind as what TV you will be getting - ("I think my decision's made, I've appreciated your help.")

Are you looking for more feedback or suggestions for a TV from our members or ????

Well, if this is the case, he should take a deep breath, go to canamrv.ca, click Hitch Hints and spend a couple of hours reading. While it will probably not convince Doug to use a Chrysler 300 as a tow vehicle ( and it should not), he will find a lot of good info about towing and matching from a guy who spent decades evaluating and outfitting TV, as well as testing their performance. One of the articles " Towing a triple slide trailer" is very relevant to his situation.
Another $0.02 to the box.

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