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Old 02-28-2021, 02:57 PM   #1
Stevenforet
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True pin weights

Looking at the new floor plan For Avalanche the 390DS. At a dry weight of 14300 and a unloaded pin at 2740. I’m interested in seeing what people are getting at the scales. I figured at 23% of 16500(gvwr) is 3795. Would that be an accurate assumption of what true pin weights could be does anyone have experience at the scales of their numbers
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Old 02-28-2021, 10:46 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Stevenforet View Post
Looking at the new floor plan For Avalanche the 390DS. At a dry weight of 14300 and a unloaded pin at 2740. I’m interested in seeing what people are getting at the scales. I figured at 23% of 16500(gvwr) is 3795. Would that be an accurate assumption of what true pin weights could be does anyone have experience at the scales of their numbers
Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.
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Old 03-01-2021, 05:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.
Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?
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Old 03-01-2021, 05:36 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
Your perception of the trailer manufacturer's tongue weight is incorrect. In order for them to pass the GVWR test their recommended tongue weight is based on the total GVWR. On page 30 of the Keystone owner's manual Keystone gives a value of 15-25% as being acceptable for 5th wheel trailers. The tongue weight (2740#) falls between those numbers as being acceptable.

Because of the way most owner's load their cargo the tongue weights will rise, sometimes dramatically.

While full timing we weighed our fiver every 3 months and adjusted our cargo to maintain a 2700# load on the tow vehicle. Sometimes that required us to send things to our son in FL to place in our storage unit. We both collected and sold on eBay which would accumulate. We had a wonderful time selling all the leftovers once we went back to part time RVing.
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Originally Posted by Stevenforet View Post
Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?
CWtheMan, stick with tires, you are 100% wrong on pin weight!!!!

The pin weight is the listed pin or approximate pin weight as the 5er left the factory. It will only grow, unless one has a Toy Hauler and a very heavy toy, and very little else in the front of the 5er.

Stevenfore, your first statement is correct, pin will grow and for best ride and towing experience it should be between 20% to 25% of GVW. Best planing method is to figure 25% of the 5er GVWR.
Our 5er scales close to 13,000# and the pin runs about 22% or about 2,700# +/-.

If you are trying to decide if you can tow with a SRW or need a DRW, with a 3,795# pin you will be too close to use a SRW, start looking for a DRW.

Ours is our only vehicle, we both drive it and don't have an issue with parking.
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Old 03-01-2021, 06:18 AM   #5
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The 390RDS "starts out, as it leaves the factory" at 14300 pounds "shipping weight" with a pin weight of 2740 pounds. That weight, a "brochure weight" does not include batteries, spare tire or rack, propane (empty tank weight is included but not the actual LPG in the tanks), nor does that "shipping weight" include any optional equipment or accessories. It does not include a washer or dryer, both of which "sit directly over the pin".

Essentially, the "shipping weight" is a "phantom weight from a non-existent trailer that you nor I will ever see".

What you should use as a "calculated estimate of pin weight" is around 20-22% of the GVW, which is typically the "shipping weight plus the cargo capacity". In your case, that would be 14300+2200=16500. 22% would be 3630. To that, add the weight of your hitch and that's the approximate weight you'll be putting in the truck bed when the pin is hitched. Don't forget you'll also need to add any cargo in the truck, passengers and equipment you normally carry to that estimate.

Once you get that estimate, you'll be "very close" but you'll also need to consider the addition of any optional items in the trailer. Things like a "heavy multiple battery system", a washer/dryer or a "specialty, heavy mattress on the front bed" will add more weight to the pin, increasing your truck cargo.

Depending on where the tanks are located, if they are forward of the axles, full tanks will add to the pin weight, if over the axles, limited impact on pin weight or aft of the axles, some (not much) decrease in pin weight.

Looking at a rough estimate, your calculations are probably "very close to what you'll see while towing, ready for a trip"...
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:32 AM   #6
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Your figure of that 23% of the 16.5k GVWR is your safest bet!
From our experience with a large 5th wheel with lots of storage I'd bet a coffee & donut that you'll be loaded to the max sooner than later.
Those that buy big RVs with too little truck that claim "we will load light & only travel short distance" are only trying to justify to themselves for bad choices 'cause believe me there's stuff you think you must have that will get loaded in & will never be unloaded that will probably get used once every blue moon.
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:36 AM   #7
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Old 03-01-2021, 07:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
Your figure of that 23% of the 16.5k GVWR is your safest bet!
From our experience with a large 5th wheel with lots of storage I'd bet a coffee & donut that you'll be loaded to the max sooner than later.
Those that buy big RVs with too little truck that claim "we will load light & only travel short distance" are only trying to justify to themselves for bad choices 'cause believe me there's stuff you think you must have that will get loaded in & will never be unloaded that will probably get used once every blue moon.
Likely overloaded! That 5er is 43’ with two bedrooms and a 2,200# payload, we have a 32’ 5er with a 2,200# and easily use every once of it and then some!
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Stevenforet View Post
Ok so then if the acceptable range is a percentage of the gvwr then 15%=2475 and 25%=4125 that is the min and max load correct?
Nothing is rock solid with tongue weights. For your application it will be what you make it.
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Old 03-01-2021, 08:53 PM   #10
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CWtheMan, stick with tires, you are 100% wrong on pin weight!!!!

The pin weight is the listed pin or approximate pin weight as the 5er left the factory. It will only grow, unless one has a Toy Hauler and a very heavy toy, and very little else in the front of the 5er.

Stevenfore, your first statement is correct, pin will grow and for best ride and towing experience it should be between 20% to 25% of GVW. Best planing method is to figure 25% of the 5er GVWR.
Our 5er scales close to 13,000# and the pin runs about 22% or about 2,700# +/-.

If you are trying to decide if you can tow with a SRW or need a DRW, with a 3,795# pin you will be too close to use a SRW, start looking for a DRW.

Ours is our only vehicle, we both drive it and don't have an issue with parking.
The trailer manufacturer MUST establish a recommended tongue weight for the purpose of vehicle certification. Once established it is added to the total vehicle certified GAWRs, the total must not be less than GVWR. That is the only time a recommended tongue weight is mentioned. It disappears once the vehicle is certified.

FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 refers: On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR.


Keystone owner's manual page #30. ...... for fifth wheel trailers the recommended tongue weight will be 15% - 25% of total weight.
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:22 PM   #11
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General info:

FMVSS 571.120; paragraph S10.4.2: The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo.

Applicable meaning being equipped with a propane system when it leaves the factory. If installed at the dealer level the cargo labeling must be adjusted to reflect the full weight of a propane system including full tanks.
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
General info:

FMVSS 571.120; paragraph S10.4.2: The UVW and the GVWR used to determine the RV's load carrying capacity must reflect the weights and design of the motor home or RV trailer as configured for delivery to the dealer/service facility. If applicable, the weight of full propane tanks must be included in the RV's UVW and the weight of on-board potable water must be treated as cargo.

Applicable meaning being equipped with a propane system when it leaves the factory. If installed at the dealer level the cargo labeling must be adjusted to reflect the full weight of a propane system including full tanks.
Your FMVSS reference above addresses the UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) which is NOT the same as the "Keystone shipping weight". What is found in the brochures and on the Keystone website is the "SHIPPING WEIGHT" and what is found on the "weight certification label" on the front corner of the trailer is the UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight)... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING !!!!!


For "planning purposes" you can "go to the trailer and use the actual trailer weights" or, if the trailer is not available at "midnight, while in PJ's, sitting on a laptop, in the den, with no trailer within 100 miles of the location, you can use the "shipping weight" from the Keystone website... THAT WEIGHT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE WEIGHT OF PROPANE OR A BATTERY...

This is about the fourth or fifth time that I've posted the information from Keystone's Customer Service. Keystone's advertised brochure "shipping weight" is not the "curb weight" (unloaded vehicle weight) that's addressed in the FMVSS citation above. If you question Keystone's statement that they DO NOT include the weight of propane in "shipping weight", please address it with them. I'll copy and paste the email confirmation from Keystone "one more time"....


From: jrtjh@XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Today 2:58:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Thank you for your response. If I understand you correctly, the hitch weight as it appears on your website does NOT include a battery or propane, but it does include the weight of the empty propane cylinders. Is that correct? Thanks much !!!



Bettina Rogers [email protected]
To jrtjh@XXXXXXXXXX
Hi John,

Yes, that is correct.

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]
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Old 03-01-2021, 09:50 PM   #13
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Cal runs on his own wavelength right or wrong. Thanks for clarifying John.
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Old 03-02-2021, 07:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Your FMVSS reference above addresses the UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) which is NOT the same as the "Keystone shipping weight". What is found in the brochures and on the Keystone website is the "SHIPPING WEIGHT" and what is found on the "weight certification label" on the front corner of the trailer is the UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight)... THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING !!!!!


For "planning purposes" you can "go to the trailer and use the actual trailer weights" or, if the trailer is not available at "midnight, while in PJ's, sitting on a laptop, in the den, with no trailer within 100 miles of the location, you can use the "shipping weight" from the Keystone website... THAT WEIGHT DOES NOT INCLUDE THE WEIGHT OF PROPANE OR A BATTERY...

This is about the fourth or fifth time that I've posted the information from Keystone's Customer Service. Keystone's advertised brochure "shipping weight" is not the "curb weight" (unloaded vehicle weight) that's addressed in the FMVSS citation above. If you question Keystone's statement that they DO NOT include the weight of propane in "shipping weight", please address it with them. I'll copy and paste the email confirmation from Keystone "one more time"....


From: jrtjh@XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Today 2:58:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Keystone RV Shopper's Konnection

Thank you for your response. If I understand you correctly, the hitch weight as it appears on your website does NOT include a battery or propane, but it does include the weight of the empty propane cylinders. Is that correct? Thanks much !!!



Bettina Rogers [email protected]
To jrtjh@XXXXXXXXXX
Hi John,

Yes, that is correct.

Bettina Rogers
Keystone RV Company
Keystone Shoppers Konnection
574-535-2488
[email protected]

I can only pass on information as it appears in established industry documentations. Each FMVSS standard stands on its content. That means that when a RV is equipped with a propane system when it leaves the factory, the entire propane system including the weight of full tanks is included in the trailers UVW. Definition: Sometimes referred to as “Dry Weight,” UVW means the weight of an RV as built at the factory.

Definition: “Curb Weight”; is the total weight of an automobile with standard equipment, oil, lubricants, coolant, a full tank of fuel and not loaded with either passengers or cargo. It is also referred to more specifically as the 'wet curb weight'.

Shipping weight is as the name implies. It has no bearing on anything other than what the vehicle weighed as shipped. There is no reference for shipping weight in 49 CFR part 567 (vehicle certification). It’s sort of like a tongue weight and probably only ever used once, by the transporter. Thereafter GVW rules.
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Old 03-02-2021, 08:09 AM   #15
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" I'll copy and paste the email confirmation from Keystone "one more time"...."
I'm betting that the "one more time" won't be even close to "the last time".
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Old 03-02-2021, 08:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
I can only pass on information as it appears in established industry documentations. Each FMVSS standard stands on its content. That means that when a RV is equipped with a propane system when it leaves the factory, the entire propane system including the weight of full tanks is included in the trailers UVW. Definition: Sometimes referred to as “Dry Weight,” UVW means the weight of an RV as built at the factory.

Definition: “Curb Weight”; is the total weight of an automobile with standard equipment, oil, lubricants, coolant, a full tank of fuel and not loaded with either passengers or cargo. It is also referred to more specifically as the 'wet curb weight'.

Shipping weight is as the name implies. It has no bearing on anything other than what the vehicle weighed as shipped. There is no reference for shipping weight in 49 CFR part 567 (vehicle certification). It’s sort of like a tongue weight and probably only ever used once, by the transporter. Thereafter GVW rules.

Cal,

Please use just a little "common sense" for a minute. there is no way on God's Green Earth that Keystone (or any other manufacturer, from AMC to Zephyr can print a brochure that has a FMVSS mandated "ACCURATE WEIGHT" on every vehicle that leaves the assembly line. WE (you included) consistently discuss the "brochure weights for Ford", the "payload for GM" and the "Towing weight" for trailers in dang near every thread we post.

NONE of those (vehicle weight, payload, towing capacity) are "accurate for any specific vehicle that comes off the assembly line. THEY ARE ESTIMATES BASED ON (in Keystone's brochures) THE SHIPPING WEIGHT AS THE "STANDARD" TRAILER LEAVES THE ASSEMBLY PLANT... If a customer changes from the dinette to a table and chairs, opts for a second air conditioner, wants the upgrade self leveling package, the dual pane windows, or any other "OPTIONAL BUILD ITEM" the weight will change and no longer be WHAT THE BROCHURE STATES....

It's the same with a Ford XL and a Ford PLATINUM F150 or F350. The weight of the vehicle AND the payload will change BASED ON OPTIONS... That's why there's a "yellow sticker" placed on each vehicle. That's why we always say, "Don't rely on the brochure for accurate capacities"...

What's so difficult about understanding that a brochure, printed in March of 2020 and intended to advertise an entire line of travel trailers is NOT going to accurately reflect FMVSS "individual vehicle weights" for every trailer that leaves the plant..... NO MANUFACTURER PRINTS INDIVIDUAL ADVERTISING BROCHURES FOR EVERY VIN.

SHIPPING WEIGHT DOES NOT INCLUDE A BATTERY OR LPG IN THE TANKS. SHIPPING WEIGHT IS NOT AN FMVSS MANDATE AND IS NOT REGULATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. IT'S SIMPLY AN ADVERTISING ESTIMATE FOR OVER A QUARTER MILLION TRAILERS, NONE OF WHICH ARE REQUIRED TO WEIGH THE SAME AS THE BROCHURE.....

Think about it for a minute (maybe longer if needed). KEYSTONE advertises the SHIPPING WEIGHT (not the curb weight) for a reason... SHIPPING WEIGHT IS NOT A FEDERALLY REQUIRED WEIGHT DEFINITION IN THE FMVSS STANDARD. Keystone has excluded the FMVSS from their brochures by using "SHIPPING WEIGHT" and they state that specifically in every brochure. THEY DO NOT INTERMINGLE FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS in their advertising, You shouldn't either !!!!!
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Old 03-02-2021, 08:32 AM   #17
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I ...

Shipping weight is as the name implies. It has no bearing on anything other than what the vehicle weighed as shipped. There is no reference for shipping weight in 49 CFR part 567 (vehicle certification). ....
Cal,

FINALLY, you state that what Keystone advertises in their brochure is NOT a part of the federal regulations. please, Please, PLEASE remember that the next time we're talking about USING A BROCHURE SPECIFICATION in estimating trailer weight, pin/tongue weight and capacities.... Keystone advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT in all their brochures for a reason. It's to avoid the "TRAPS" of trying to comply with individual VIN specifications in a generic advertising brochure....

NOWHERE in any brochure will you find a statement: "This brochure complies with FMVSS weight requirements for every vehicle that leaves our assembly line".... To that end, there's a reason Keystone specifically advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT in the brochure and not CURB WEIGHT. Then on the individual vehicle/trailer weight certification decal found on the front left corner of every trailer. they do use FMVSS weight requirements... One is for advertising a line of trailers, the other is to meet federal certification standards for a specific individual trailer. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
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Old 03-02-2021, 12:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
NOWHERE in any brochure will you find a statement: "This brochure complies with FMVSS weight requirements for every vehicle that leaves our assembly line".... To that end, there's a reason Keystone specifically advertises SHIPPING WEIGHT in the brochure and not CURB WEIGHT. Then on the individual vehicle/trailer weight certification decal found on the front left corner of every trailer. they do use FMVSS weight requirements... One is for advertising a line of trailers, the other is to meet federal certification standards for a specific individual trailer. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
I think you are confused in my message. To my knowledge, I've NEVER said brochure weights are correct. To the contrary, they cannot be trusted to be true.

However, there are exceptions; The FMVSS says a recommended tongue weight MUST be published. They don't say how or where.

The easiest explanation describing vehicle manufacturer UVW is by subtracting the established CCC from the trailers certified GVWR. That's where the weight of the propane system is.

It's explained in this rules document (short version).

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...rying-capacity
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Old 03-02-2021, 01:30 PM   #19
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Note: In accordance with existing regulations, a dealer can install a battery and not have to make CCC weight adjustment unless the battery's weight is greater than 100#.
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Old 03-02-2021, 02:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
I think you are confused in my message. To my knowledge, I've NEVER said brochure weights are correct. To the contrary, they cannot be trusted to be true.

However, there are exceptions; The FMVSS says a recommended tongue weight MUST be published. They don't say how or where.

The easiest explanation describing vehicle manufacturer UVW is by subtracting the established CCC from the trailers certified GVWR. That's where the weight of the propane system is.

It's explained in this rules document (short version).

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...rying-capacity
Some day you will understand that dry pin weight is NOT a recommended pin weight! Dry pin is the weight of the unloaded 5er pin, it isn’t what the fully loaded pin is expected to weigh. Pin weight only goes up from dry, and should be between 20% and 25% of the 5er GVW.
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