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Old 09-30-2020, 07:28 AM   #41
wiredgeorge
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Here's the actual SAE 2807 standard "in all its glory". Trailer requirements are in Appendix A. Truck "selection to represent the fleet" is defined throughout the standard. Gone is the requirement to use a 150 pound driver (the standard now also requires a 150 pound passenger)...

IMHO, while the standard is closer to something every manufacturer has to use so they all are using the same test procedures, there's still lots of "wiggle room" for any manufacturer to one up the competition by reading "between the lines" of the standard and picking/choosing how to conduct the test to their own benefit.....

14,000 pound trailer behind a half ton truck ??? With a 5500 pound truck weight, that's a 19,500 GCWR.... Quite an optimistic rating for towing a trailer that outweighs the tow vehicle by 2.5 times.... Does such a vehicle/trailer combination really meet the "intended requirements" of the SAE standard or is there a "way around the actual intent by redefining/finding a loophole" ?????

I looked at several articles and they mentioned yearly one-up-manship between the various OEMs and that the numbers were put forward by the marketing types then the engineers were assigned the task of coming up with those numbers. It is strange that a truck can be basically the same platform with the same engine and every year, power, payload and towing increase just a hair over the competition.
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Old 09-30-2020, 11:02 AM   #42
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Although we still like to think of ourselves as "campers" we're looking to upgrade from a pull behind to our first 5th Wheel. Keeping it small so we can still get into some of the National Forest Campgrounds in Colorado and such, we're strongly considering a new Cougar 24RDS (it's just the two of us). Having never owned a Keystone I'm wondering about overall quality of the build of the Cougars and how they stack up to other brands. I expect there might be small issues as you get will all new units which have just rolled off the line, but mainly interested in overall quality compared to others. It's an investment and any input is appreciated.
I live in North Texas and have camped throughout the Southern US. You will need 50 amp electric and 2 AC units or you will be very uncomfortable 🥵. Even with this smaller unit. Keystone specs for this model show standard AC is a single 13.5 BTU. Totally inadequate!! Optional 15k BTU is available. You definitely will want that PLUS a second 13.5k BTU unit. These campers are poorly insulated, all of them. Not only does your AC have to fight 100+ degree ambient temps in the late spring through early fall, but also fight the excessive RADIANT heat that comes through from the sun. Also, cool down will take several hours. With 2 AC units, cool down should be much faster. With 2 AC units, both will have to work less once you are cooled down, which improves efficiency. If you decide to go ahead and buy this rig, and living in Texas, spend the money on the AC. You will be glad you did. Don’t let the dealer tell you a single unit will be fine. Absolutely do not go with a single 13.5 BTU unit. If you decide to go with one 15k unit, make sure they pre wire the RV for a 2nd unit as you will most likely be adding a second unit at some time. Safe travels!
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Old 09-30-2020, 01:50 PM   #43
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I live in North Texas and have camped throughout the Southern US. You will need 50 amp electric and 2 AC units or you will be very uncomfortable 🥵. Even with this smaller unit. Keystone specs for this model show standard AC is a single 13.5 BTU. Totally inadequate!! Optional 15k BTU is available. You definitely will want that PLUS a second 13.5k BTU unit. These campers are poorly insulated, all of them. Not only does your AC have to fight 100+ degree ambient temps in the late spring through early fall, but also fight the excessive RADIANT heat that comes through from the sun. Also, cool down will take several hours. With 2 AC units, cool down should be much faster. With 2 AC units, both will have to work less once you are cooled down, which improves efficiency. If you decide to go ahead and buy this rig, and living in Texas, spend the money on the AC. You will be glad you did. Don’t let the dealer tell you a single unit will be fine. Absolutely do not go with a single 13.5 BTU unit. If you decide to go with one 15k unit, make sure they pre wire the RV for a 2nd unit as you will most likely be adding a second unit at some time. Safe travels!

I believe I mentioned this in post #5 of this thread. It doesn't hurt to emphasize the need to 50A and 2 A/C units. When I bought my camper a few years ago (28' 5th wheel / Cougar) it had a 13.5K btu on the roof. It worked fine and first time we went camping in triple digit temps in full sun, couldn't get the cabin much under 85F. Wife was NOT happy nor was I. Ran to Best Buy and bought a portable 8K btu A/C and a fan on a stand and got temps under 80F. Later got very dark tint on the windows and re-wrapped my ducting and got a 15K BTU Dometic Brisk II. Now temps are in the upper 70s. Much better then swapped the 8K BTU portable for a 14K BTU and I can keep it at about 75F on the hottest days. I was thinking about sticking a 13.5K BTU A/C in the hole where my bedroom vent but would have had to run an AC cord to plug into 110V outlet on a pedestal and the vent is right near the slope transition (toward front cap). Decided to stick with the portable.
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by TsnTexas View Post
Although we still like to think of ourselves as "campers" we're looking to upgrade from a pull behind to our first 5th Wheel. Keeping it small so we can still get into some of the National Forest Campgrounds in Colorado and such, we're strongly considering a new Cougar 24RDS (it's just the two of us). Having never owned a Keystone I'm wondering about overall quality of the build of the Cougars and how they stack up to other brands. I expect there might be small issues as you get will all new units which have just rolled off the line, but mainly interested in overall quality compared to others. It's an investment and any input is appreciated.
We recently (6 weeks ago) bought a 2021 Cougar half ton 29MBS and yes we can pull it with a Ford F-150 half ton diesel without a problem. We love the Cougar and found it to have many up grades others don’t have. It has a few minor things that need to be fixed but we have learned from others that they all have things to be fixed in them no matter the price. Ours has a rear kitchen we love that has a lot of counter space and also a middle bunk room. Also has a really good size shower. We really love it, don’t think you can go wrong buying it.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:24 PM   #45
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Although we still like to think of ourselves as "campers" we're looking to upgrade from a pull behind to our first 5th Wheel. Keeping it small so we can still get into some of the National Forest Campgrounds in Colorado and such, we're strongly considering a new Cougar 24RDS (it's just the two of us). Having never owned a Keystone I'm wondering about overall quality of the build of the Cougars and how they stack up to other brands. I expect there might be small issues as you get will all new units which have just rolled off the line, but mainly interested in overall quality compared to others. It's an investment and any input is appreciated.
My wife and I picked up our 2021 Cougar 24rds about a month ago. We couldn’t be happier with it. We did a lot of research and found this floor plan with the storage met our needs.

I had a couple of small issues I noticed after leaving the dealer that I was able to fix. The inside motion sensor light at the steps to the bedroom was defective and would randomly go on and off. Dealer sent me a new one with a return postage for the old one and one of the wire connectors to the switch for the led light on the front above the pin box was broke, both of which were easy fixes).

We have been impressed with the fit and finish of the cabinets and slide outs. The one downside to this floor plan is you cannot access the bedroom/bathroom with the living room slide closed.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:33 PM   #46
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We have the same issue with our sensor light by the stairs, we will take ours in to have all the minor repairs done in November that is how booked our dealer is.
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Old 09-30-2020, 05:50 PM   #47
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We recently (6 weeks ago) bought a 2021 Cougar half ton 29MBS and yes we can pull it with a Ford F-150 half ton diesel without a problem. We love the Cougar and found it to have many up grades others don’t have. It has a few minor things that need to be fixed but we have learned from others that they all have things to be fixed in them no matter the price. Ours has a rear kitchen we love that has a lot of counter space and also a middle bunk room. Also has a really good size shower. We really love it, don’t think you can go wrong buying it.

I think you should take a quick, hard look at the door stickers inside the driver door of your F150 diesel. That is an 11000 lb. 5th wheel.....on a 1/2 ton truck? I'm thinking that "we can pull it without a problem with a Ford F-150 half ton diesel without a problem" is simply because you can make it roll...which I have no doubt. But the truck wasn't built for that weight. Fords own spec sheets, which are WILDLY optimistic on towing specs, state that your truck has a MAX payload of 2020 lbs. 11k trailer = 2200lb pin weight at gvw. No room weightwise for anyone to drive the truck.

Hopefully you can post those numbers from your truck and they will be far different from what Ford says...or maybe not. 1/2 ton diesels are notorious for having lots of hype but in the end....they are a 1/2 ton truck. Advising those reading that a 1/2 ton diesel can tow, safely, an 11000lb trailer is not responsible unless you can post those numbers.

For reference - just look at first page...

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content...F150_Oct15.pdf
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:48 PM   #48
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I recently bought a Cougar TT, i prefer them over fivers for many reasons. Saying as much, i basically bought one of the biggest ones they offer, a 32RLI @36' long and like 8,000 lbs, my poor 1/2 ton is over maxed. Now contrary to what people say, there are ways to help boost effective tow ratings which are loads cheaper than buying a new TV. My problem is im a gasser, so even once i finish my suspension overhaul, My 5.3 will never actually be optimal for efficiency.Click image for larger version

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Old 10-01-2020, 02:26 AM   #49
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Now contrary to what people say, there are ways to help boost effective tow ratings which are loads cheaper than buying a new TV. My problem is im a gasser, so even once i finish my suspension overhaul, My 5.3 will never actually be optimal for efficiency.Attachment 30083Attachment 30084
And once you finish your suspension overhaul, will the federal sticker in the drivers door area be changed?
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:35 AM   #50
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Oneguy, your statement "my poor 1/2 ton is over maxed" was possibly the understatement of the day. I'm guessing you went to LT tires, air bags, four point hitch, extra leaf on springs, heavier duty tranny cooler, Bilstein shocks, new mud flaps and an air foil for your flow-thru tailgate? You'll have a hard time convincing those 'in-the-know' that your TV should be dragging 1011K down the road. It's a very nice RV, by the way, but, well, welcome to the forum!
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:20 AM   #51
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With all this said you have to remember when they give a max tow rating that number is not specific to a fifth wheel. A 14000lb trailer with a bobcat on it can have a payload or hitch weight way lower then a fifth wheel.. or way higher depending where the cat is located on the trailer. So i guess where im going here is you may be able to tow a 18000lb trailer with your truck but not a 14000lb five'r.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:30 AM   #52
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Oneguy, your statement "my poor 1/2 ton is over maxed" was possibly the understatement of the day. I'm guessing you went to LT tires, air bags, four point hitch, extra leaf on springs, heavier duty tranny cooler, Bilstein shocks, new mud flaps and an air foil for your flow-thru tailgate? You'll have a hard time convincing those 'in-the-know' that your TV should be dragging 1011K down the road. It's a very nice RV, by the way, but, well, welcome to the forum!
better methods other than air bags but bilsteins yes, lt tire, yes, debating on adda spring, have the equalizing hitch, doing brakes soon and a few other things. mind you, im into heavily modifying all my vehicles, from my lifted jeep, to the 740 rwhp super charged Corvette, to even my trusty 1500. ill gladly spend 5k to not have to spend 15k on a new tv lol. remember, the biggest challenge is just getting it to stop... lol
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:31 AM   #53
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Side note, i make a living towing trailers... i might know a thing or two
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:35 AM   #54
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And once you finish your suspension overhaul, will the federal sticker in the drivers door area be changed?
we have our stickers changed to 'derate' our trucks where i work all the time for dot reasons.. no need to change as this wont be towed commercially
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:55 AM   #55
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Side note, i make a living towing trailers... i might know a thing or two
I hear ya. I think on this forum we are always thinking in terms of a fifth wheel tow. Thats were it get sticky talking about towing weights in general.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:58 AM   #56
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I hear ya. I think on this forum we are always thinking in terms of a fifth wheel tow. Thats were it get sticky talking about towing weights in general.
yeah 5th wheels definitely have perks and disadvantages, i don't think a 3k pin weight on a regular half ton would be a geat idea personally, but depending on the motor and brakes the tv has, the suspension can be beefed to compensate.. it just takes money, and not just a set of bags.
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:39 AM   #57
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What I find amazing is I've noticed most time on these forums anything brought up by a person for one particular reason or another it always seems to end up being about the persons tow vehicle and not about the original subject matter. I know you have to be safe and be within limits but the subject matter always changes. Kind of like a gun forum where it always changes to whose gun is bigger and which ammo is best.
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Old 10-01-2020, 06:01 AM   #58
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What I find amazing is I've noticed most time on these forums anything brought up by a person for one particular reason or another it always seems to end up being about the persons tow vehicle and not about the original subject matter. I know you have to be safe and be within limits but the subject matter always changes. Kind of like a gun forum where it always changes to whose gun is bigger and which ammo is best.


I agree that the subject line can "morph" to include a weight conversation depending on the subject, information provided and comments made. Many, but not all, understand the audience. Many, many new folks to towing that don't know anything about trucks, trailers, weights or how any of that works are members of this forum. Erroneous or misleading statements, bad combos that "don't even know it's back there"....that kind of thing left for a new tower to digest and implement is not a good thing so context has to be provided. If an individual is willing to "be on the edge" or over it, that is their personal choice. To advocate that to someone who has no idea of what they're doing is irresponsible and must be pointed out. I constantly read the complaints that everyone pushes for a "1 ton dually"; that's not true. The proper truck for the load (read carry) is stressed, if a 3/4 ton is required many think you should just get the 1 ton to save money - not a bad thought.

As far as taking a 1500 and making it a 3500 as a previous poster has implied he will do by beefing up the suspension and brakes....can't and won't happen. There's a lot more to a HD truck than the brakes and springs and 5k won't touch it; starting, just to mention some little things....frame, axles, differentials, transmission, u joints, drive shaft....little things - may as well buy that new truck and save the 5k - and have one actually built for what it's doing.
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Old 10-01-2020, 06:10 AM   #59
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I agree that the subject line can "morph" to include a weight conversation depending on the subject, information provided and comments made. Many, but not all, understand the audience. Many, many new folks to towing that don't know anything about trucks, trailers, weights or how any of that works are members of this forum. Erroneous or misleading statements, bad combos that "don't even know it's back there"....that kind of thing left for a new tower to digest and implement is not a good thing so context has to be provided. If an individual is willing to "be on the edge" or over it, that is their personal choice. To advocate that to someone who has no idea of what they're doing is irresponsible and must be pointed out. I constantly read the complaints that everyone pushes for a "1 ton dually"; that's not true. The proper truck for the load (read carry) is stressed, if a 3/4 ton is required many think you should just get the 1 ton to save money - not a bad thought.

As far as taking a 1500 and making it a 3500 as a previous poster has implied he will do by beefing up the suspension and brakes....can't and won't happen. There's a lot more to a HD truck than the brakes and springs and 5k won't touch it; starting, just to mention some little things....frame, axles, differentials, transmission, u joints, drive shaft....little things - may as well buy that new truck and save the 5k - and have one actually built for what it's doing.

I think when one of our members stands up to reason and claims his overloaded 1/2 ton is perfectly dandy for towing a far too large camper this brings several others out of the woodwork and perhaps they have already seen the arguments for operating and towing irresponsibly and either don't care or are in denial. Occasionally someone will actually accept the fact that grossly overweight towing is detrimental to their safety and to the safety of others and very hard on their overwhelmed tow vehicle and take some sound advice to heart. To the others, well God bless you and go forth and do as you like.
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Old 10-01-2020, 07:02 AM   #60
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Having worked on every type of truck from half tons to dueces to semi's, im going to say this.. there are A LOT LESS DIFFERENCES than you think.. for example the tow/payload between a f350 dually and f550 flat bed. how do i know? my company has probably 30,000 pickups on the road right now and my job is to know what they can or cant tow as part of my job. Litterally in some instances the tow rating is ONLY determined by what tire it came from from the dealership. There is a lot of gimmick in the auto industry and while it could be dangerous to tow a load too large for your rig, knowing the difference , allows someone like me to Litterally convert a 1/2 ton into a 3/4 or 1 ton depending on certain things. Its not some mythical magic trick.. my 2 weakest links on mine will be the 4l60e trans which will be upgraded to a 4l80e at some point, and the fact that im only 320ish hp 350 lb/ft.. those 2 things will be the most cost to upgrade, but a 6.0 is being considered for a swap already. Could i just buy a 3/4 ton? sure but my 1/2 ton is basically paid off and i like to tinker.

Again in theory i agree people should be mindful, but as a commercial driver, I have the experience with the equipment and driving to back what I say. The ones that worry me are people who drive the motor homes when its obvious they probably are not qualified to drive the rig they have.
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