Rookie ~ 2 winter questions

Ron&Jodi · 09-08-2020, 10:31 PM

1. Is there a way to heat 5th wheel with portable electric heaters, yet still circulate the air so the "basement and water pipes" also get the warm air from the living area, so they do not freeze? Does fan setting on thermostat do it? That appears to just use the air conditioner to blow air and doesn't seem like it would do the trick.

2. This is rated as a 4 season unit, so there is insulation protecting the pipes. Will this be good enough without skirting, to keep pipes from freezing in cold Colorado weather?

BKGRND and relevant info.
We are rookies in our first winter of using this 5th wheel.

2007 Keystone Everest 364Q

I have 3 1500 watt heaters all of which are in heating mode and functioning well.

We have a very efficient dc fan that pushes the air at the precise speed needed to mix the air wonderfully.

We are in Colorado, and we get electricity free, so I am economizing with electric space heaters for that reason. It is not clear to me how I can circulate the warm air in the living area throughout the "basement areas" to prevent pipes from freezing.

Our water inlet hose is a factory wrapped insulated and heated hose. We know to keep all cabinet doors open where ever there is a sink, shower and bathroom door open for water lines that are exposed there, closet doors open which house the washer/dryer.

I just do not know how to circulate the heated air from the living area to and throughout the basement to warm those pipes beneath the flooring and the bottom of the trailer insulation without using the furnace to do so. Can it be done, or must i use the propane low efficiency furnace?

We just bought this and it is our first winter.

Thank you in advance for educating the newly initiated.
Respectfully,
Ron & Jodi Kalli n Keo

**JRTJH** · 09-09-2020, 05:52 AM

You are facing more issues than just "circulating air throughout the basement"...

First, there is no means to force air into the underbelly except the furnace fan. That fan won't push "hot air through the ducting" unless it is functioning on propane. That said, there is an optional electric "add on" that you can buy for the furnace. Cost is around $300. That add on will convert the furnace to allow it to operate efficiently on electricity or propane. That will push "hot air" into the basement/belly.

Using electric space heaters in the cabin will only allow the furnace fan to "push ambient air (not heated air) from the cabin into the belly. In comparison, cabin air (ambient air) is about 70-75 degrees while "heated air" (from the furnace heat exchanger) is in excess of 150 degrees.

In addition to the "heated city water hose" you'll also need to find a means to keep the dump tanks and associated valves/sewer runs as well as your sewer hose from the trailer to the sewer dump from freezing. Most people close all the valves and only dump their holding tanks when the weather is sunny and somewhat warm.

If you have "single pane windows" you're going to have a tremendous heat loss through them. The walls are rated "around R-7 or R-9, not even as much as standard 2x4 wall insulation, so don't explect an "efficient, snug cabin" in temps below freezing and certainly not in temps below 0F.

We had a member who lived in Colorado try to "winterize/winter prep" his 2013 Cougar fifth wheel. He tried to live in it "just west of Colorado Springs" back around 2014. His experiences are detailed in the fourm threads. You can search for them and read about his "successes" (few) and "failures" (many).... He found that once a tank or a line froze, it was "permanently non functional" until he spent significant effort to thaw the line. Thawing took significantly more heat then maintaining/preventing the frozen condition.

Look into the RV Comfort Systems "electric furnace kit" https://www.rvcomfortsystems.com/add-on-system

It's not a "complete, all you'll need to do" conversion, but it will provide some added winter living capability, especially if your electricity if "free".

Ron&Jodi · 09-09-2020, 08:28 AM

Thank You John

I will research the thread and look at the conversion unit. It looks like I have a lot of work to do and after researching more questions to ask.

Your efforts, details, and information are most appreciated.

Respectfully,
Ron & Jodi, Kalli n Keo

**JRTJH** · 09-09-2020, 09:24 AM

Here's a link to the thread I was talking about from back in 2012. https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ead.php?t=9057

There are many others as well.

Here's a link to a "sticky" created by a member who sometimes checks in, but has not been on the forum recently. He spent a tremendous amount of time, effort and expense to "modify his Alpine for winter use" https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=19807 This link will contain a number of other links to other threads on the same topic, all directly related to "winter full timing in a Keystone RV"....

Keep in mind, Geo lived just north of Dallas Texas when he was doing these modifications with the intent to "full time during the winter" in that area. Colorado is "substantially colder" than Texas, so what you're going to experience is even more severe than what he was preparing to face.

Customer1 · 09-09-2020, 05:59 PM

The furnace in our rig is located under the refrigerator and has a large return air grill. Pointing a fan blowing into that grill does an excellent job of circulating the air. You can feel the air coming out of the floor registers.

Ron&Jodi · 09-09-2020, 07:03 PM

I did what I thought was quite a bit of research before I asked here ~ Your help is quite useful, in depth, and I see no "sugar coating" anywhere.

I am not happy about what our options are, and if I had only known . . .

The good news is, I do have a little time before the very cold weather sets in.

Dealing with these multiple issues in the middle of a freeze crisis would have been even more daunting making for an unhappy occasion.

Thank You for Sharing Yourself so generously.

Bless You and Yours,
Ron & Jodi, Kalli n Keo KKRJ

GaryUT · 09-09-2020, 07:14 PM

Here is a video from YouTube that talks about winter camping, and what they did to their trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sORrlTH2hM&t=335s

Gary

travelin texans · 09-09-2020, 07:20 PM

Don't put a great deal of confidence in the "4 seasons package", that's mostly a sales gimmick. The "package" means the underbelly is covered with some sort of covering that offers NO insulating value with maybe a layer of Reflectix (chrome bubble wrap) above that covering that has about the same insulating value.

wiredgeorge · 09-09-2020, 08:16 PM

Ron, It is a lot easier to maintain context on tech questions if your camper year, make and model (as well as the same for your tow vehicle) is in a signature that will show on each of your posts. You can make a signature under the UserCP button on top/left of each page in the black bar.

I also wish no one would ever show any more snow videos.... they make me dizzy. Why do people want to live in SNOW? And in a camper? OUCH.

**flybouy** · 09-10-2020, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Ron, It is a lot easier to maintain context on tech questions if your camper year, make and model (as well as the same for your tow vehicle) is in a signature that will show on each of your posts. You can make a signature under the UserCP button on top/left of each page in the black bar.

I also wish no one would ever show any more snow videos.... they make me dizzy. Why do people want to live in SNOW? And in a camper? OUCH.

George is constantly busting some of us for being "weight police". I propose we implement a new dept.and give the honorary position of Captain to George. So how about it? I propose a a new "Signature Police" designation. Do I have a second on the motion?

spade117 · 09-10-2020, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flybouy

George is constantly busting some of us for being "weight police". I propose we implement a new dept.and give the honorary position of Captain to George. So how about it? I propose a a new "Signature Police" designation. Do I have a second on the motion?

Seconded.

rhagfo · 09-10-2020, 05:23 AM

Well if you get your electricity for free and can afford it this is a great system. We installed in our 32' three season 5er sand has kept us heated down to so far 20 degrees out side. We flip to gas about once a month to burn dust off the gas heat exchanger. It isn't cheap to buy at $795, but works great if you have 50 amp service.

https://www.rvcomfortsystems.com/

**JRTJH** · 09-10-2020, 07:52 AM

I agree with Russ, which is why I suggest the "electric furnace mod" in the first place...

Objectively thinking about it, even if it's $800 to buy the kit and $200 to install it ($1000 total) you'll probably spend that much or maybe even more in propane costs over a winter, just in trying to keep the trailer from freezing... Note: I didn't say "keep the trailer warm and cozy"... In sub zero weather, I think we all would agree, That ain't gonna happen in Colorado.....

**JRTJH** · 09-10-2020, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flybouy

George is constantly busting some of us for being "weight police". I propose we implement a new dept.and give the honorary position of Captain to George. So how about it? I propose a a new "Signature Police" designation. Do I have a second on the motion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spade117

Seconded.

Maybe even a badge for his avatar ?????

Texas Steve · 09-10-2020, 08:10 AM

Congrats George! You've been promoted!!

**flybouy** · 09-10-2020, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Maybe even a badge for his avatar ?????

Ha! Ha! Perfect! I'll take that as a quorum. Welcome to the academy George!

Bnrc73 · 09-13-2020, 08:14 AM

A lightbulb in your water bay will keep everything toasty. Don’t know a fix for the underbelly. If it was me, I’d just open the low point drains and use my air compressor and blow out all the water when I’m not in it to run the furnace.

Ron&Jodi · 09-13-2020, 08:37 AM

So the heater is about $850, Professional installation $1500 (vendor estimate) to $2k. I need installed on site. I have thus far been unable to locate someone competent to install it for us. I continue to look.

I have posted a signature and vehicle pic.

We will get acclimated on the forum as we proceed.

I am working on window insulation as we speak, but think I may have that almost solved.

I will putting a light in the water inlet access bay.

I could have elaborated on Free regarding electricity, but for brevity decided not to. Electricity is included in lot fee.

I am about to consider the skirting possibilities, but for now I intend to super heat the sewer hose and exposed piping for the water disposal.

I appreciate all of your input and details. It has been most useful for us to continue preparation for winter.

Ron&Jodi · 09-13-2020, 08:38 AM

We have awnings over each of the 4 slides. When we get snow, will that likely present issues? Any suggestions?

Ske120 · 09-13-2020, 10:10 AM

Late fall camping
Hi, we use our camper in October in Northwestern Ontario. We have camped when it snows and definitely freezing temps. We are in the bush in the middle of nowhere so we use a generator for power. We have a 2015 Cougar Lite 5th wheel trailer and we have discovered that the furnace fan will not kick in and out if running off the battery at night. 30 amp service is required for the furnace and the air conditioner to work properly. So last year we ran the generator all night plugged into the 30 amp plug and the furnace fan worked properly to circulate the warm air. We were toasty warm for the whole week.

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