Need more Ooomph for front jacks

NotyetMHCowner · 08-14-2015, 10:11 AM

We have a problem with our front right jack not wanting to work on the first day of our 19 day Yellowstone trip a couple of weeks back. After an hour long phone call with tech support at Lippert, I think my problem is not having enough battery.

I have a 2015 Montana High Country 305 RL with Ground Control 3.0. We have an Onan 5.5 gen set and a combo washer/dryer along with the front closet full with a couple of coolers. I know there is a lot of weight in the front, but these jacks are suppose to be able to lift 5000 pounds each. I just have the one house battery that came with the unit. Voltage is about 12.5 to 12.7 without shore power. When both front jacks are being used, I am thinking that the voltage is dropping too low and cutting out one of the jacks (the one with the most weight). I know I can plug the umbilical in with the truck running and that helps, but I shouldn't have to do that.

I would like to know what the best option is for my battery situation. We don't have plans of much dry camping, and if so, we have a generator for that reason. Most of the battery upgrades I read about are for adding deep cycle batteries or golf cart batteries for the long amp draws that dry camping require. But what I am needing is a system that holds the voltage up when using the front jacks (high current). I also need to use the battery for starting the generator.

Would just adding a second battery (buy both at the same time) help enough to fix my problem? I think my battery is a marine style (combo), but I will have to look as soon as I get a chance to make sure.

Festus2 · 08-14-2015, 10:46 AM

The front landing jacks of any 5th wheel require a fully charged battery for efficient operation of the landing gear. Over the years of owning a 5th wheel, I have always plugged in the power cord into the truck with its engine running when raising or lowering the landing gear. In doing this, I am ensuring that the battery is getting enough "oomph" to provide sufficient amps/volts to the landing gear motor. Should I have to do this? Probably not but it is one thing you can do to make sure your battery (if it is in good condition to start with) has enough "juice".

You didn't say much about your battery so I am not sure if it is a group24 or group27 but I'd go with the larger of the two if I were you.

Adding another 12V battery in parallel isn't going to do much to give you any more of the kind of boost you are looking for. If you rarely or seldom do any dry camping, having a deep cycle battery isn't really a priority.

Also, do you have landing jacks that are independently operated and have two motors or a single motor working both jacks? If you have a single motor, it may be too small for the weight that you are lifting.

NotyetMHCowner · 08-14-2015, 02:08 PM

It is an Auto craft marine deep cycle size 24. That is probably part of the problem. My Jacks have a motor on each jack and there are 4 of them. I don't plan on installing a "battery bank" for long dry camping times, but I would like a good solid system.

Javi · 08-14-2015, 04:03 PM

It ain't the battery.. well unless it is a bad one... I've got pretty much the same system and I have ZERO problems...

One easy way to tell... use shore power while using the landing gear... if it's better then you got a weak battery... There is exactly no reason to have to have two series 24 batteries for the landing gear or the Ground Control system.

Is it better when plugged into the TV or not? if so... you got a weak battery..

Go have it tested... nearly any of the chain Auto Parts Houses can do that for you for free..

NotyetMHCowner · 08-14-2015, 04:09 PM

The battery is brand new. We never had a problem until we loaded up the front end. It only have us issues twice during our 19 day trip. It doesn't make much of a difference on shore power does does with the TV while idling. Reason is because shore power only adds the charger but the TV while idling adds the Alternator and bumps voltage to around 13.5.

gearhead · 08-14-2015, 04:13 PM

I'm thinking your battery. Like others, I try to be plugged in to the truck or shorepower when using landing gear. Not always convenient though. I'm running 2 batteries and haven't noticed much difference.
Do you have room for 2 batteries with the gen up there?
I'm wondering what your pin weight is? We have washer/dryer, but no generator. I'm around 3,000, with no clothes loaded and depending on her shoe count.

NotyetMHCowner · 08-14-2015, 04:16 PM

I would love to know my pin weight. I haven't weighed the camper be itself yet. On this trip, we were loaded. 3 coolers in the closet with lots of clothes. Cases of water and drinks under the bed. My dually was on the rubber bumpers above the axles. Like I said, it worked flawlessly every other time until twice this trip.

TandE · 08-15-2015, 07:34 AM

I have the ground control on my 5er too and like others I leave the umbilical attached to the truck once I'm where I want to be. I then go to the panel after I lower the legs with the pins a couple holes and select ground front jacks. While it is grounding them I go and grab my shore power cable and hook up the rig. By the time it is hooked up the jacks are grounded or just about done. I then raise the front slightly to unhook the hitch and then I unhook the umbilical and everything else and pull out from under it. I do all of this while the truck is running so no voltage problems that I have seen yet.

But I have done it solely on battery power from the rig and the motors for the jacks sound the same. There was another thread on here of someone who was having voltage problems on a two or four month old rig with supposedly new batteries and they were shot. So I would have them tested.

It would not surprise me if the dealers do not rotate batteries like auto parts stores where the newer ones go in the back of older ones and it's possible that the battery you got was older or used by them for opening slides and such on the lot and abused.

Travis

Javi · 08-15-2015, 07:43 AM

I was just thinking... Are you using the GROUND FRONT JACKS command?

If so... it will often (depending on the level of the ground) lower both legs util they sense weight and then raise one leg before the other in an attempt to somewhat level the trailer.

Mine does that on some sites but not on others... perfectly normal.. after all this is a leveling device that is also raising the trailer off the hitch..

Tom N OH · 08-15-2015, 07:46 AM

As others have stated, could be a bad battery. Even new batteries can be bad. Also could be a loose/dirty connection, either at battery, where battery cables connect to the trailer's wiring or frame, at the landing gear's wiring, etc. Does the voltage at the battery increase when plugged into shore power or the truck? Systematic diagnosis is key. Have the battery checked first, then you will KNOW it is good, not just guess. Then check voltages hooked up to shore power/truck. Both should bring voltage above 13v. Then check all connections. Post back with results.

Also, to get your pin weight, go to the scales with the trailer connected, only put the truck's wheels on the scale, trailer off the scale, then unhook the trailer & weigh the truck again. Subtract the two & the difference is your pin weight.

randy69 · 08-15-2015, 05:53 PM

You have to lubercate the landing gear once in a while.

NotyetMHCowner · 08-16-2015, 02:05 AM

I have always dropped the front jacks while getting the shore power cord hooked up. Then I raise the jacks to get off of the hitch (I have the Andersen). Then pull the truck out of the way and hit auto level. The night I had the problem, the front needed to lower quite a bit. At some point, at almost perfect level, it went into error. The front right had quit. It was raining and we were level enough, so I called it good. The next morning, it told me to retract all jacks to clear the error. I did. Then while trying to raise the front, the front right would not extend. While on the phone with Lippert, they wanted me to measure voltage at the controller while disconnected from shore and it was around 12.5 to 12.6 or so. She said that 12.5 is the least it should be. The voltage is well above 13 when either on shore power or hooked to the TV. It appears that when dropping the jack all the way down, it went into a negative number with the hall affect sensor and would not work. I disconnected the sensor and manually raised it about an inch, then tried it again. I worked until under a real good load and then cut out again. I was able to finally get them raised manually and went on down the road thinking this was going to be a problem each stop of a 19 day on the road trip. It only messed up one more time at Jackson Wy, and I was able to manually raise the front left a little then the front right a little and so on to get hooked up.

I assumed that the battery power alone should work the jacks at least one full auto level session, but maybe not. Like I said, we had not had one problem whatsoever until loaded to the gills. At home, it sits on the driveway at a good angle and I have to lower the front jacks all the way down with the right rear tires up on a 6"x6" block. Then raise it all the way up above the Andersen ball each time to hook up and have never had a problem. I think I have found the limit to the weight in the front while not being hooked to the TV.

The level is off a little now because of unplugging the hall affect sensor so I need to zero that back in. I will get the battery tested anyway, but I will start leaving the umbilical plugged in when possible during auto level and while raising the front jacks to hook up.

I do have room for 2 batteries, but don't want them if it wont help.

What is needed to lubricate the landing gear? Just a thin coating of grease on the leg of the jacks?

Tom N OH · 08-16-2015, 05:08 AM

Sounds very much like a battery issue to me. When I picked up my 305RL from the dealer, the fuses on the coach battery charger were blown & neither I nor the dealer's guys realized it. My Level Up system gave me problems when I got home & tried to unhook. Replaced the fuses & all is well now. Get your battery tested & if bad, replace it with a Group 27 battery for more capacity. Only a few $ more & well worth it. Dual batteries are not needed unless you're going to be doing a lot of dry camping.

gearhead · 08-16-2015, 12:11 PM

Be careful getting in a hurry. We were on the way to Indy 500, and drove through bad rain getting to Terre Haute. Setting up at the KOA it was thundering and lightning, I got in a hurry, had the 5th off the hitch, hit the "level now" button and the front of the 5th came down....fast. I was closer to the truck so I jumped in and tried to pull out from under the 5th. I didn't quite make it. I rubbed the paint off 2 spots and rolled the trim off the overhang. Truck was OK...the roll up bed cover has bed rail covers.
Lesson learned....I've been rained on before and survived. I'll look at the site better next time and not be surprised at what the 5th will do to get level. I will get the truck out from under the 5th before leveling on a questionable site.
I just use the "front jacks down" when unhitching. If I don't think they took any load off the truck, I'll let them down a bit more. I try to hook up 110volt shorepower asap, usually first thing.
I had the trim replaced free by my infamous dealer, since they took 6 weeks to do what they said would take 2 weeks, which could have been done in 2 days.
Anyway...I learned to slow it down.
If you're down on the stops you must be fairly heavy. I'd want to weigh it just out of curiosity.

Javi · 08-16-2015, 12:39 PM

After reading your story, a couple of things I do that might help you come to mind.

When I pull into a site and before I drop the landing gear I take a look at what the jacks will have to do to get the trailer level. I take into account the range of the jacks and the condition of the site.

Earlier this summer we stayed at a site that required me to use three 2 X 12's under the street side landing gear and drop the pad twelve holes on that side while dropping the curb side 10 holes with no boards. This was what it took just to get the truck unhooked and leave what I thought was enough travel for the jacks.

After unhooking and trying to level the trailer the rear jacks took three 2 X 12's under both sides just to keep the rear from limiting...

But the front jacks limited out before the trailer was completely level front to back. Since we were staying a week I decided to re-hook and move the trailer back a little.

It took two more tries to get it where the system would level before limiting.. You never heard so much whirring, popping and cussing as went on that afternoon and that was just the DW..

I usually carry fifteen or so 2 X 12's either in the truck bed or in the front storage and I used every single one of them before it was over..

Funny thing is... site didn't look that un-level at all...

gearhead · 08-16-2015, 01:49 PM

Dang Javi, that wasn't down at Goose Island was it?
I carry some 2x12, 1x12, and those plastic square things.
I default to 4 holes showing on the legs. Worked so far, but I haven't been in any adventurous sites.
Other than that old KOA at Terre Haute.
When that auto level hiccups, I'll probably cry like a baby. "What do I do NOW?"

Javi · 08-16-2015, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearhead

Dang Javi, that wasn't down at Goose Island was it?
I carry some 2x12, 1x12, and those plastic square things.
I default to 4 holes showing on the legs. Worked so far, but I haven't been in any adventurous sites.
Other than that old KOA at Terre Haute.
When that auto level hiccups, I'll probably cry like a baby. "What do I do NOW?"

Ywah it was... there are maybe 4 sites on the water side that aren't flat on top and as luck would have it the only site left when we got there was the worst one... Had to back up a lot closer to the water than I would prefer, but it all worked out in the end.. price I pay for a 38'+ trailer..

SteveC7010 · 08-17-2015, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotyetMHCowner

What is needed to lubricate the landing gear? Just a thin coating of grease on the leg of the jacks?

Head on over to Lippert's website and select the customer service section. They've got manuals available online for just about everything that Keystone uses on their RVs. There should be lube instructions for your type of landing gear.

http://www.lci1.com

Edit to add: This should be good advice, but (there's always a but) I didn't find much in any of the landing gear manuals about lube instructions. That seems pretty contrary to me that a major device like the landing gear doesn't call for user maintenance like lubrication.

Anyway, I still recommend bookmarking Lippert's site because there is some useful info in many of their manuals.

TandE · 08-17-2015, 04:23 AM

Unfortunately for us the ground control manual only lists to use a spray lubricant if the jacks are down for long periods of time every 3 months and every month if in salty areas. Doesn't say what spray to use.

It also says in the preventive maintenance section to just remove dirt and road debris from jacks and stabilizer struts as needed.

Makes it sound like you don't need to lube them but that doesn't seem right. Looks like I will have to call and see what they say themselves

Travis

SteveC7010 · 08-17-2015, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TandE

Unfortunately for us the ground control manual only lists to use a spray lubricant if the jacks are down for long periods of time every 3 months and every month if in salty areas. Doesn't say what spray to use.

It also says in the preventive maintenance section to just remove dirt and road debris from jacks and stabilizer struts as needed.

Makes it sound like you don't need to lube them but that doesn't seem right. Looks like I will have to call and see what they say themselves.

I have the traditional landing gear with a single motor. Somewhere (and I can't find it at the moment) I have instructions that call for dry lube on the legs but don't really say what to do up top with the bevel gears, and the zerk fittings.

In the hydraulic landing gear manual that I found, it calls for silicone lube on the legs, but again, nothing said about the upper section.

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