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Old 05-14-2024, 02:23 PM   #41
wiredgeorge
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Originally Posted by notanlines View Post
Marshall, your statement "These days, if you ask a driver where the spare tire is you'll likely get a shoulder shrug answer" certainly hit home. We had a flat tire on the interstate three years ago in our "beat around town Chrysler minivan." Where is the spare? How in the dickens should I know? There is a half-inch bolt under the carpet between the front seats that requires 42 turns to the left to lower the spare to the ground. Not 40. My DW had to Google the answer to "How do I disconnect the cable from the spare. I kid you not.
Bad engineering is not limited to northern Indiana, but exists in Detroit also.
Now I have to around all day knowing I'm the fool you were talking about.
On my clunker F350 you have to stick a SPECIAL TOOL through a hole in the bumper and crank the tire down and there is no great way to check tire pressure unless you perform this ritual which means if I mount the spare, it is unlikely that the tire will be the correct pressure.
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Old 05-14-2024, 05:42 PM   #42
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On my clunker F350 you have to stick a SPECIAL TOOL through a hole in the bumper and crank the tire down and there is no great way to check tire pressure unless you perform this ritual which means if I mount the spare, it is unlikely that the tire will be the correct pressure.
I had occasion a couple weeks back to lower that very spare, just so I could get in behind my receiver hitch and hammer out a stuck adapter. As long as I had it out, I flipped it over so that the valve was toward the ground, and arranged the valve at the very rear. Now I can test and air it up as necessary. Since the wheel is asymmetrical, I checked the manual first just to make sure there was no prohibition on me storing the spare out side down, and there wasn't.
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Old 05-14-2024, 06:03 PM   #43
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In my VERY LIMITED exposure to AI, I've found that it will "give you the answer you want" not "give you the factual answer you need"... It's more a "equity based feel good answer" rather than always being factual and directly related to the question you asked....

Maybe that's just what I've seen, but the last time I asked Wikipedia or Google "How good is the Cougar?" I got some answers about wildlife and then some answers that were "about as wild as older women can be".... So, putting any "faith in what Ai might help you research" is not necessarily sufficient to prevent the "SHOCKING QUALITY" of a Keystone Cougar (or Alpine or ....)
Sounds like s salesman doesn't it?
Isn't that the cause of the OP's original issue?
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Old 05-14-2024, 08:13 PM   #44
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Quote: How does a first time buyer learn of PDI?

From the Internet…..most people nowadays won’t order takeout food without checking online…won’t buy a car without seeing the reviews of the car and the dealer online…Won’t go on vacation somewhere without checking out trip adviser… It only takes a few minutes to find anything you could possibly have a question about…. But some people skip that step….”so you get what we had here last week”
Back before the internet, if you wanted to read reviews of product quality, you looked at Consumer Reports or something modeled after that. When I bought my first RV, there was an organization called RV Consumer Group that did that. You joined, for a not-insignificant amount of dues, and you got a massive catalog of pretty much every make and model on the market, with reviews from their staff. They were curated, done by the same small group of mechanics, and assuming no payola was involved, they were trustworthy. I made my first RV purchase from those recommendations, and I was happy as clam with that rig for 20 years.

When I went shopping for this rig, I tried reconnecting with the group, but their business model had changed. They were now rv.org, everything was online, and their information wasn't near as meaningful or usable as it was back then. I ended up not using them.

To me, you can't stack internet reviews against an organization like the original one. They aren't curated -- they're written by widely different people of undefined expertise, rationality, and honesty. There are actually trolls who write bogus bad reviews on merchandise they've never even tried, in order to extort money from the manufacturer to remove their review. It's worse than anarchy out there.
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Old 05-19-2024, 09:37 AM   #45
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Well, took the Outback back to camping world to fix the leak and address some stripped screws and over tightened screws that the heads broke off and misapplied trim. Turns out the leak was a result of a screw type hose clamp was used instead of the correct pex type. Why would a screw type hose clamp even be on the assembly line floor, when using pex? Why was this not caught by quality control? I know, I know, never ask why when it comes to mass production.🙄
Came home, backed it in the building, run the slides out to make loading easier for our first trip next week. Hit the bedroom slide button, fraction of a second later, BANG! The access panel that the dealer opened to get at the plumbing, the top had tipped out, on the way home, and was behind the slide out trim.😤 upon further inspection, the top screw had never caught the block it was intended to be in from the factory! It had missed just under, so only the edge of the screw was just barely touching the block. I suppose unscrewing it and screwing it back in loosened it just enough to allow it not to hold. Broke the panel in the top corner. I was able to glue it for now, but back to camping world for a replacement panel. Camping world can only get the panel from keystone in 4’x8’ sheets. Only need about an 18”x 18” piece. 🙄 So road trip back to Counsil Bluffs with the broken piece, I go, to use the broken piece as a template to cut a new piece. I will measure and drill pilot holes, for the screws MYSELF.
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Old 05-19-2024, 10:25 AM   #46
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Every time I read anyone criticize qc at at Keystone. Now we all should realize the qualifications of the poor assembly line worker that speeding along at at sprinters(runner, not RV) pace.

Then I think of NASA and the Hubble telescope. Literally thousands of engineers, many with phds, and an ungodly amount of money as well as thousands of the best computers in existence just to send a design failure into orbit. ANYONE, and sometimes EVERYONE on a project can make a mistake.

Just saying. JMO
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Old 05-19-2024, 10:35 AM   #47
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MYSELF.
This is the best word out the entire thread!

Welcome to the adventure.

I refuse to take anything back to the dealer and just figure it out MYSELF! (and with the help/advice of some very qualified individuals on this forum)

I have never had a good experience at any CW store I have stopped at during our travels and refuse to give them 1 penny out of my pocket.

Enjoy your new TT and hopefully make some happy experiences and meet some great people when on the road.
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Old 05-20-2024, 06:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
Every time I read anyone criticize qc at at Keystone. Now we all should realize the qualifications of the poor assembly line worker that speeding along at at sprinters(runner, not RV) pace.

Then I think of NASA and the Hubble telescope. Literally thousands of engineers, many with phds, and an ungodly amount of money as well as thousands of the best computers in existence just to send a design failure into orbit. ANYONE, and sometimes EVERYONE on a project can make a mistake.

Just saying. JMO
NASA, building things to hurl into outer space with components from the lowest bidder. I get that. No excuse for using a hose clamp on pex. No reason for even having them on or near the assembly floor. Period!
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Old 05-20-2024, 06:54 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
Every time I read anyone criticize qc at at Keystone. Now we all should realize the qualifications of the poor assembly line worker that speeding along at at sprinters(runner, not RV) pace.

Then I think of NASA and the Hubble telescope. Literally thousands of engineers, many with phds, and an ungodly amount of money as well as thousands of the best computers in existence just to send a design failure into orbit. ANYONE, and sometimes EVERYONE on a project can make a mistake.

Just saying. JMO
Let's not forget that time that NASA engineers made a mistake in converting measurements to/from metric and as a result, by the time the computer told the lander to slow down to prepare for atmospheric entry, it had already crashed full speed ahead into the surface of Mars.

Anyway, I have seen many hose clamps on RV's. There are plenty of fittings that are not PEX where hose clamps are appropriate for use. A marginally trained line worker with a screwdriver and a spare hose clamp or two in his/her pocket is going to use it instead of holding up the line to find someone with the appropriate tool, and crimps, and qualifications.
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Old 05-20-2024, 07:05 AM   #50
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Let's not forget that time that NASA engineers made a mistake in converting measurements to/from metric and as a result, by the time the computer told the lander to slow down to prepare for atmospheric entry, it had already crashed full speed ahead into the surface of Mars.

Anyway, I have seen many hose clamps on RV's. There are plenty of fittings that are not PEX where hose clamps are appropriate for use. A marginally trained line worker with a screwdriver and a spare hose clamp or two in his/her pocket is going to use it instead of holding up the line to find someone with the appropriate tool, and crimps, and qualifications.
That happens to be one of my favorite references! What goes splat other than a bug on the windshield? The Mars probe coming in hot!
They actually never made the conversion that was the issue mismatched values in the same calculation, can we say Oooops?
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Old 05-20-2024, 07:56 AM   #51
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[QUOTE=Husker Tim;564522]NASA, building things to hurl into outer space with components from the lowest bidder. I get that. No excuse for using a hose clamp on pex. No reason for even having them on or near the assembly floor. Period![/QUOTE]

I don't agree with statement. If they had to stop the line, run back to get the people crimping tool and band, then fix the issue, how much money would that cost? I think most folks wouldn't be willing to pay the extra cost for that. This is another example of the importance of purchasing from a good.dealership. it's the dealerships responsibility to inspect the unit and correct any defects before delivery. JMO
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Old 05-20-2024, 08:05 AM   #52
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NASA, building things to hurl into outer space with components from the lowest bidder. I get that. No excuse for using a hose clamp on pex. No reason for even having them on or near the assembly floor. Period!
Not to "pile on" but to add to Marshall's comments above, who's to say that it even happened "on the Keystone assembly line" ???

I've seen countless trailers arrive at dealerships with a leak in a PEX line or in some other plumbing run and the dealership techs "fix the leak"... You've got to admit that installing a worm gear clamp is much, MUCH easier and quicker than pulling the fitting/PEX apart, sliding on a clamp ring and doing it correctly... Unfortunately, for way too many RV service techs, if it stops the leak, then it was the right fix and the trailer goes "out the door". After all, if it comes back, we get paid again to fix it.....

So, the "cycle of quality and who to blame" continues with "circular finger pointing" and nobody accepting responsibility....

Your PEX hose clamp issue might be "from the assembly line" but it's just as easily "from the dealership"....
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Old 05-20-2024, 05:07 PM   #53
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Judging from the reactions, the overall feeling is that manufacturing errors, multiple errors, are to be expected and accepted. It appears the RV industry is giving us just what we deserve. If we accept mediocrity, we will surely receive slightly less than that. It appears the disease of doing just enough not to get fired has permeated our whole society. Sad, very sad.
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Old 05-20-2024, 05:54 PM   #54
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Judging from the reactions, the overall feeling is that manufacturing errors, multiple errors, are to be expected and accepted. It appears the RV industry is giving us just what we deserve. If we accept mediocrity, we will surely receive slightly less than that. It appears the disease of doing just enough not to get fired has permeated our whole society. Sad, very sad.

The reactions are based on real life. The desire to have a perfect product; RV, new home, car/truck, lawn care company etc. - all are based on "I wish". Real life always trumps that.

The RV industry (boat, auto, granite, lawn care, painters et al) ALL have quality issues. Perfection is not in the equation unless you want to pay mega bucks for top line "stuff". Even then with an RV the issues will remain...they are there. New homes (I've built a few), it's there.

So what does the RVer do? Rail at the company that makes them (all of them)? Post derogatory comments about them (although the unit was bought, inspected and accepted)? Refuse to accept the "me" factor in how the unit was chosen and purchased? All of that just leads to unhappiness and a constant inner mental condition that just makes you look for "unhappiness" - btdt. Not what I'm looking for, want or need.

An RV is what it is. We either want one or we don't. We either accept the caveats that come with that or we don't. If we can't fall on one end of that spectrum or the other.....we're just unhappy people. Expecting a tiger to change it's stripes is ludicrous - same goes for the RV industry, auto industry, peach growers, chile growers, home builders etc.
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Old 05-20-2024, 06:29 PM   #55
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There are manufacturers for whom quality is job number one. For example, I've been very impressed by what I've seen out of Oliver Travel Trailers. The problem is that currently they make only two models – and their "large" model is tiny compared to the sort of rig we prefer to travel in. It's probably perfect for the outdoorsy camper or the boondocker, but we are more like road hobos who like to take our hotel room with us. Tiny beds and wet baths are not our cup of tea. On the other hand, if they made a rig in our size range, we would absolutely consider taking the hit on price to own one. Yes, we are willing to pay for the quality, if there's somebody out there who would make that product.
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Old 05-20-2024, 06:40 PM   #56
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There are manufacturers for whom quality is job number one. For example, I've been very impressed by what I've seen out of Oliver Travel Trailers. The problem is that currently they make only two models – and their "large" model is tiny compared to the sort of rig we prefer to travel in. It's probably perfect for the outdoorsy camper or the boondocker, but we are more like road hobos who like to take our hotel room with us. Tiny beds and wet baths are not our cup of tea. On the other hand, if they made a rig in our size range, we would absolutely consider taking the hit on price to own one. Yes, we are willing to pay for the quality, if there's somebody out there who would make that product.

There are niche RV producers that make a higher quality product (not issue free) that come at a much higher price and require LOTS of buyer "acceptance" of the niche type of amenities they offer. Most RV buyers want bigger, longer, wider and the most fancy amenities they can get for the cheapest price....that's where it's at - the manufacturers build to that. To expect more you should expect to pay more...you need to know the animal (market/product). I personally would have no problem with paying for a Luxe or something similar for the "quality" but that comes with other issues; tow vehicle (I won't have a DRW) etc. Things have to weigh out for each buyer but the bottom line is there is going to be a quality issue with an RV....or anything else.
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