Question for the tow police

[chuckster57]

No you can’t refuse to let the CHP weigh you as far as I know. There are pick up trucks with portable scales and they are pulling over RV’s on the highway and weighing them. The other thing in Ca is the “travel trailer endorsement” on your license. Don’t have it? You can be forced to unhook and leave it until you do.

Having a CDL trumps the endorsement, but not the weight or getting weighed at any random point on the highway.

I never said a lowered GVWR truck is less capable, what I said was if the truck came from the factory with a higher GVWR and the buyer chooses to register it at a lower GVWR, he/she runs the risk of fines if weighed, that’s ALL I SAID.

In the end we all make choices, and I chose to register my truck at its FACTORY GVWR.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused.

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

I told myself I would not respond further to "silliness" but thought about the OPs remark above; how exactly is a truck "rated" for 14k (in the OPs mind) yet agreed to, and registered legally, for 10k but the 14k is actually the "real" number based on ??? How does LEO know? A jury or judge? Call in the OPs manufacturer expert? (Won't happen). Take the OPs superior knowledge of towing vs the registered gvwr that the OP agreed to or law?

This is just BS trying to misguide our members and cause confusion IMO. Are there ambiguities in the laws? Most certainly. Do we take it on ourselves to try to "self interpret" them and disregard them because we will just laugh at the trooper at the door demanding x? That's just not in the realm of reality unless you want to spend a of time in what would have been an easy situation...or worse. My last comment to this silliness.

[Bolo4u]

Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.

The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.

Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.

Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.

If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.

This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/co...=AJPERES&CVID=

[flybouy]

Danny, silly is a good descriptor for the OP's points.

It's silly to think you can circumvent the tax code, brag about it publically, then think there wouldn't be any ramifications by a good injury lawyer.

It's silly to think that RV's are not regulated because they aren't regulated as commercial vehicles. A bicycle is regulated as far as highways are concerned.

It's silly to think anyone would believe that playing Mr. Bad A$$ roadside attorney will play well with any LEO.

It's silly to think that driving an overloaded is only against regulations if it's a commercial vehicle that must stop at the weigh scales.

I think it's silly when people tell me what the law means or how it will be enforced without checking with the governing body. I've never been charged with tax evasion but from the reports of several politicians in this state (MD) that have it sounds very serious.

The OP's point that this is a forum and open to opinions is correct and I've given my opinion.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.



The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.



Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.



Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.



If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.



This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/co...=AJPERES&CVID=

I was hoping you would see this thread and comment. Thank you, since I was at the “end of the road” so to speak in the Law enforcement realm I didn’t need to be as versed in the “rules of the road” as those who enforced them, just the ones that applied to me.

I have personal knowledge of people having their RV impounded while traveling to/from a camping destination. It can ruin your plans, that’s for sure.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

Sorry if anyone thought this was a "baited" question. I thought this was a forum and open for discussion.

There seems to be more than one issue here and I have to disagree. I doubt very seriously there is any "legal liability" if I were to have an accident in a truck rated for 14k yet I've only paid for 10k worth of registration fees. This is simply a calculation a state uses to figure fees on how much wear and tear their highway gets. Yes, I might be in trouble with the state for not paying my fair share, but it in no way relates to what my vehicle can safely carry. I drive a big rig and trailer in California with a GVWR of 109,000 lbs. I can register said truck with the DMV for 40k, which barely covers the empty weight. Does that mean my vehicle is less capable, or more liable, or caused an accident because I was hauling something which put me over the registered weight of 40k? Don't get these issues confused.

My original question was about spec'ing down the GVW of a new pickup. The only difference between an F250 and 350 is a rear overload spring. I've read many times you guys telling people to simply go by the door sticker on whether their truck is overloaded or not. In the 250/350 example above, do you think if the overload spring (or airbags) were added to the 250, it would still be unsafe pulling the load of the 350?

As for being "regulated," every car driver is also "regulated" because they pay registration? If CHP pulled me over and told me he wanted to perform a safety/compliance inspection on my family car, I would laugh at him and ask to speak to his supervisor. If on the other hand, I was in a commercial vehicle I would comply. Cars and RVs are definitely unregulated, ie not subject to commercial vehicle regulations. A commercial operator would have to submit to being weighed; with an RV driver this might be a fifth amendment issue, but what do I know? I'm just a truck driver!

I've always had this "capability" question when reading everyone's advice to "go by the door sticker." Wouldn't people be better served if they were advised to add a few modifications instead of trading their F250 for a 350? Just my 2¢

And as a supervisor, I would respond and inform you the officer is well within their legal authority to do so, if they can articulate the reason why. You might want to read Vehicle Code Section 2804: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ectionNum=2804.

[Ken / Claudia]

In this state post #15, the first paragraph about being cited for being heavier than paid for license but under GVWR is a common ticket ONLY on COMM TRUCKS. Think of a f550 GVWR of 17,500 and paying for 10,000 lbs to save money. Than I see it, loaded cab high, 16 ft long 2x6s, I run the plate and DMV says It paid for 10,000 lbs he gets a ticket. For improper wt. registration. If the wt. is above that's been paid for.
Back to NON COMM, I no longer work for OSP and have not weighted vehicles in about 10 years. I did as other troopers should still do, check wts for vehicles when possible that appear over wt.
OSP has, I carried them, portable scales. 1st check is whats the tire say, than check the VIN sticker or yellow sticker to learn GVWR. Allowed 1,000 over on GVWR before a cite.
Here we did not have passenger pickups licensed by wt. COMM PICKUPS yes if over 10,000. All Comm vehicles must allow wt. checked. Or be cited for not allowing the check. In my case never did 1 Comm truck not allow me to check the weight.
I am sure other states have very different laws about those things.
The CIVIL law side of overweight. Don't think for 1 second there are not lawyers ready and willing to take cases where the TV/RV was way over weight and killed or serious injury was done by that combo. How do they know the weights, they will be checked during the crash reconstruction along with every other part of the vehicles that have to do with safety.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

No you can’t refuse to let the CHP weigh you as far as I know. There are pick up trucks with portable scales and they are pulling over RV’s on the highway and weighing them. The other thing in Ca is the “travel trailer endorsement” on your license. Don’t have it? You can be forced to unhook and leave it until you do.

Having a CDL trumps the endorsement, but not the weight or getting weighed at any random point on the highway.

I never said a lowered GVWR truck is less capable, what I said was if the truck came from the factory with a higher GVWR and the buyer chooses to register it at a lower GVWR, he/she runs the risk of fines if weighed, that’s ALL I SAID.

In the end we all make choices, and I chose to register my truck at its FACTORY GVWR.

To expand on the license endorsement issue. Yes a class A (commercial license in California) is good for most everything being driven - RV wise.

Any travel trailer over 10000 GVWR requires a non-commercial class A, which is a written and skills test.

A 10000-15000 GVWR 5th wheel is simply an endorsement on the class C (regular vehicle license) and its just a written test.

5th wheels over 15000 GVWR require a non commercial class A.

[tylerj1966]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

Disclaimer: I just retired from ~30 years as an LEO, the last ~25 with the CHP.

The physical capabilities of a 14000 GVWR truck is the same whether the additional weight fees are paid to the DMV or not.

Basically, you're paying an administrative fee to carry more weight than a pickup registered at 10000 GVWR. There is also a GCW calculation, but that's getting more in the weeds. Trucks weighing LESS than 8001 pounds and with a GVWR UNDER 11499 pounds are exempt.

Bottom line, you are not obligated to pay the additional fees on a 14000 GVWR truck, -but- if you get caught exceeding the baseline of 10000, and are issued a citation, then stand by for significant back fees, fines and penalties.

If your Ram 35000 Dually weighs 8450 empty, on a scale, then you can put about 1550 pounds in the bed before you are in danger of exceeding the baseline weight fees you paid. Generally, unless you're operating in commerce or for profit, then you likely won't have an issue. However, there are some larger municipalities who do have their own "commercial enforcement" operation and they may zing you if you're hauling a pallet or two of ready-mix concrete home from Home Depot.

This form explains it fairly simply: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/co...=AJPERES&CVID=

I understand that completely but everyone has misunderstood my question and scenario. I'm not trying to get around any DMV fees nor am I advertising it publicly.

Has anyone visited The Ford website and used the "build and price" option lately? Ford offers to have trucks spec'd with a lower (10k) GVWR as an option. So when this truck is then registered with DMV, the registration fee is less than if the truck has a GVWR of 14k. There's nothing illegal about this. My original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

If you guys got lit up by this question, wait until I post about why my srw is more capable and can carry more than your dually!

We're all eyes.... waiting for you to impart your years of wisdom and educate us.

[tylerj1966]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

We're all eyes.... waiting for you to impart your years of wisdom and educate us.

In due time... I'm still trying to get this topic back on track.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

I understand that completely but everyone has misunderstood my question and scenario. I'm not trying to get around any DMV fees nor am I advertising it publicly.

Has anyone visited The Ford website and used the "build and price" option lately? Ford offers to have trucks spec'd with a lower (10k) GVWR as an option. So when this truck is then registered with DMV, the registration fee is less than if the truck has a GVWR of 14k. There's nothing illegal about this. My original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

I completely understand your original question. Yes I'm fully aware Ford does offer a de-rated GVWR build option. As far as components or other mechanical factors during assembly, you'd have to contact them and find out. ASSUMING the say - 14,000 GVWR truck is de-rated to 10,000 through ordering, and all they do is apply a different federal label, then mechanically it should be the same wether the sticker says 14,000 or 10,000.

I purchased a new 14000 gooseneck trailer and it sat on the dealer lot until the 9990 GVWR de-rated sticker i paid for was sent from the factory. Yes the trailer is still a 14,000 capable trailer, in fact, the original GVWR federal sticker is under the de-rated sticker.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

In due time... I'm still trying to get this topic back on track.

It was always on track, it just never left the station.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

IMy original question was, does everyone think this de-rated F350 is built differently or less capable/safe than other F350s?

I don’t think anyone on this forum is an automotive engineer and can answer what components may or may not be in a “derated” truck. My thought my answer was simple enough. If the truck comes from the factory with a “rated” GVWR of 14,000 lbs and you CHOOSE to pay the weight fees for 10,000 pounds, then just be prepared to pay if your weighed and found to be over.

If the truck comes from the factory with a 10,000 pound rating, then again your legally bound to stay within the limits. Your trying to twist my response and I’m not here to argue. My response was in my opinion as fair and honest as anyone else here. I’m done, have fun doing as you please and I hope I never have to share the highway with you weather your in your OTR truck or pulling your RV.

[tylerj1966]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

It was always on track, it just never left the station.

I think you're the only one. I've got everyone else riled up.

One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?

Everyone else went off on a liability discussion to which I stated I didn't see any liability since the vehicle was designed to carry the weight.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

I think you're the only one. I've got everyone else riled up.

One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?

Everyone else went off on a liability discussion to which I stated I didn't see any liability since the vehicle was designed to carry the weight.

Since the trailer would be within its original specs, I would be on the hook for whatever the penalty is for operating without the proper driver license. Towing a utility trailer that weighs 10000 GVWR, even empty, requires a class A (commercial) driver license As long as I don't exceed 10000 (9990) GVWR on the trailer I'm good with a class C.

[tylerj1966]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

Since the trailer would be within its original specs, I would be on the hook for whatever the penalty is for operating without the proper driver license. Towing a utility trailer that weighs 10000 GVWR, even empty, requires a class A (commercial) driver license As long as I don't exceed 10000 (9990) GVWR on the trailer I'm good with a class C.

I realize this is a gray area, But doesn't the law state you need a class A for a trailer with a GVWR in excess of 10k? In my overload scenario, you are still a class C driver operating a trailer with a rating less than 10K even though your trailer now weighs 12k. I would guess you could be cited for the overweight but not the DL issue. Am I wrong?

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

I realize this is a gray area, But doesn't the law state you need a class A for a trailer with a GVWR in excess of 10k? In my overload scenario, you are still a class C driver operating a trailer with a rating less than 10K even though your trailer now weighs 12k. I would guess you could be cited for the overweight but not the DL issue. Am I wrong?

My answer stands.

[bsmith0404]

Well this has been entertaining to read. I know in the state of NM, when I had my dually with a 13,000 GVWR I was given the option to register at 10,000. If I had exceeded the 10,000 the. I could have been cited for exceeding registered weight limits. As for my license and truck/RV GCVWR, if they exceed 26,000, then I require a class E license which basically is for personal RV use and is simply a form filled out at the MVD stating that.

However, non of that info has anything to do with the OP question. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what Ford does, if they change anything on the de-rated trucks.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by tylerj1966

One more question: Let's assume your new gooseneck trailer weighs 6k with the 9900 GVWR. You're hauling 6000 lbs of lumber on that trailer. What's the penalty?

The tow vehicle is just carrying the tongue weight. The trailer is carrying the rest. If both are within their own GVWR and the tow vehicle is within its GCWR there is no violations.