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Old 05-04-2019, 05:18 PM   #21
cookinwitdiesel
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So last night, we made the 200 mile drive up to Allentown, PA (almost the entire way in a storm of biblical proportions) to checkout the Sprinter and some Reflections. Went into the dealer today then drove home. While there we also popped in some Outbacks they had in stock. As an aside, Tom Schaeffers RV Super Store in Shoemarkersville, PA has an awesome selection of trailers

So we went into the Reflections first (312bhts and 315rlts). That may have ruined us. They just seemed obviously better put together and things were all around a little (or a lot) nicer. We went into the Sprinter 330kbs and 320mls after, as well as the Outback 340bh and 341rd. After the Reflections, the Sprinters and Outbacks just felt a little cheaper and lower quality. It is hard to quantify but unmistakable.

My main concern with the 312bhts was that the bedroom is (on paper) the same layout as my Hideout which we do not like. What we were relieved and excited to find out, is that there is an awesome amount of space around all 3 sides of the bed and a ludicrous amount of storage space everywhere in the trailer! It was very comfortable and easy to move around the bedroom in the 312. The 315 vs 312 was interesting, the 315 had an amazing bedroom and closet layout - but you pretty much trade that bunkhouse in the 312 for an extra sofa in the living area and the very spacious closet. If the trailer was 3' longer to accommodate the 315 bedroom on the 312 with the bunkhouse - I would not be able to throw money at them quickly enough. For us, needing the bunkhouse space for our daughter trumps an awesome bedroom setup (we can still get a very nice bedroom AND wont have to be exiled there during naps with the pack-n-play in the bunk room now).

SO, we are now looking at our different options for getting a Reflections 312bhts (3+ dealers in a 4 hour radius) and how we will sell our Hideout. I asked them today what they would give us on trade-in and they fed us some BS saying they would have to compare retail value on my Hideout against MSRP of the Reflections. MSRP on the Reflections is $55k, on a non-trade they would sell it for about $42k. They said they could give me $25k for my Hideout against the $55k Reflections meaning it would be a $30k jump. Understanding they need to make money (and already do at the $42k price clearly) - I would think a better price would be $21k-$22k for my Hideout against the $42k Reflections, a $20k jump. It seemed lazy/greedy/sloppy that they want to just pocket an additional $10k since it is a trade-in (they would still make over 10% on the Hideout in my scenario above - on top of whatever they would make on the Reflections). Should I expect all other dealers to pull the same crap? I really hate dealing with sales people and dealerships by the way haha

I have no experience selling something like this privately and have no clue what the demand in our area looks like. How do you even pay for something that big in a secure way without worrying about scams? I know I will get better mileage and value out of all the improvements I have done with a private sell.

Update: So I went back through the emails and amazon orders....I have done about $2900 in upgrades to a $19k trailer in 6 months. Being on this forum is expensive.....lol (several hundred of that is "detachable" things I would include as I would no longer have a need for them such as EMS, mattress, 30A power cords, etc)
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:36 AM   #22
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Sam, I'm truly aghast at such language 'they fed us some BS ' along with the idea that a dealership might be difficult to bargain with....
NEVER get it in your mind that a dealer can be alive and well at the end of the year with a 10% mark-up on a used RV. 20% bare minimum on an average sized business.
Simply tell your salesperson (as high up as you can go) that your first, last, and best offer is, i.e. your title-free Hideout, all in first-class working order, and $10,000 or you walk. Do it in writing or with the sales manager around if possible.
It will fly or it won't. You still have more dealerships to try.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:28 AM   #23
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Just me personally, but I would not want to pull a 37' travel trailer. My preference is once the TT gets over 30', move to a 5th wheel.


We started looking at TT's couple years back. Started looking at a 22' that my F150 could tow, to near 30' so had my truck dealer on the phone for a F250, to over 30' which meant to me moving to a 5th wheel.


When we bought the 5th wheel, I really liked the Reflections but the wife liked the Alpine better, so we got that.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:30 AM   #24
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WoHoo, went online to check out your choice and that is one serious TT! Looks like it will be more fun than should be legal to have.
Do you think the 2500 GMC is enough truck? That is serious GVWR for a TT and I wonder about upping to a 3500 DRW? Just something to think about.


Congratulations if you have already got it!!
Nice choice.


We do not have kids and that 315 sure was intriguing.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:32 AM   #25
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That would be at the limits on this truck but should work. In the next year or two I see a new 3500 in the future. Not sure yet on SRW or DRW (future 5er plans will determine) but will definitely go bigger either way. If I already had a 3500, I would be looking at 5ers and not TTs but it is what it is.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:16 AM   #26
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NADA does have a online guide for used RV prices, and your Hideout is listed on the site. All you have to do is add whatever options you have above what comes as standard equipment.

The wife and I sold our previous TT (Forest River Rockwood) on Craigslist and it went just fine. I took a bunch of pictures, posted them along with a good description of the trailer, and it sold in one day. The people that bought it had to leave a $500 deposit, and then was required to get a bank check from a major bank to complete the deal. You just have to be careful on any transaction that involves a lot of cash.

I would say whatever trade-in they give you for your Hideout should go against the sale price of your new rig, not the MSRP. And from the looks of it they are not giving you a good deal on the trade-in.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:50 AM   #27
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Sam,

Here is a link to the NADA guide for your trailer. It is base pricing and note that it is for "retail" - not what you will get for a "trade in".

https://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2018/...6578571/Values

The dealer is playing the same game every car dealership plays, and I've played it many times. They have a margin that they are going to make and they know what they have in the new unit....you don't and you aren't going to find out no matter what they show you. They also know what they are going to sell your unit for after they look at it...you won't no matter what they tell you. If you shoot for their "rock bottom" price in the new unit (which in this case seems pretty high - I would go for 30% off msrp) they are going to give you "rock bottom" trade in. If you go with msrp they will give you the "high end" for your trade in. Either way the margin remains the same; you get to walk away thinking what a great deal you got on the price of the new trailer, or, what a smoking deal you got for your trade in. In reality it is very difficult to walk away with both.

Right now in RV sales they sell them as fast as they can make them. If you don't buy it someone else will if it's a decent floorplan and not priced in the stratosphere. They depend 100% on your (or the next customer's) driving desire for a new trailer, "that" trailer, and your willingness to compromise and spend the dollars even if they are making a little more than we want them to. If you don't do it, the next guy will. It's just the nature of the beast so go into the negotiation hoping for the best and expecting the worst and set the limit in your mind on how much you're willing to "give" to get the new trailer. On the other hand, I personally would sell the trailer myself to save the bath your going to get by trading it in.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:08 AM   #28
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Thanks for the advice guys, I have looked at the NADA values for my trailer. Low retail is $17k - so I would probably expect around $13k-$14k best case on a trade-in - which is what I have seen already. After doing some research on it all, I think I will try selling privately and see how that goes. I want to list for $23k assuming I will get haggled down some but that is a reasonable starting point I think. I did have to prep my wife for the reality that we will NOT be breaking even on the trailer.

I have a to-do list though to get it ready to sell
-sand and paint frame and anything with rust on underside
-clean roof and sides and wheels of RV
-inspect and seal the roof
-as part of the sealing process, try to identify where water may have been getting into the ceiling from and fix that as well as clean up the inside

Note on the water, seems to be NO issue when raining on stationary RV, but driving 60-70 mph with heavy rain led to water in the trailer - any thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks!
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Old 05-06-2019, 10:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Thanks for the advice guys, I have looked at the NADA values for my trailer. Low retail is $17k - so I would probably expect around $13k-$14k best case on a trade-in - which is what I have seen already. After doing some research on it all, I think I will try selling privately and see how that goes. I want to list for $23k assuming I will get haggled down some but that is a reasonable starting point I think. I did have to prep my wife for the reality that we will NOT be breaking even on the trailer.

I have a to-do list though to get it ready to sell
-sand and paint frame and anything with rust on underside
-clean roof and sides and wheels of RV
-inspect and seal the roof
-as part of the sealing process, try to identify where water may have been getting into the ceiling from and fix that as well as clean up the inside

Note on the water, seems to be NO issue when raining on stationary RV, but driving 60-70 mph with heavy rain led to water in the trailer - any thoughts/suggestions?

Thanks!
Looks like you are on the right track for selling it privately cookin. When we sold ours it was imaculate, inside and out. Thatís one of the reasons it sold so quickly. Also, we did regular maintenance and could show receipts on what was done and when.
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Old 05-07-2019, 07:35 AM   #30
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Ya, I plan to have it looking "better than new" when I am ready to sell it. That is how I sell everything (computer parts, lawn mowers, etc).
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Old 05-11-2019, 12:33 PM   #31
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Well, got it listed today. On RVtrader, Craigslist, Keystone Classifieds, Facebook Marketplace. Time to see how the market looks....

I listed at $22k expecting to get haggled some.
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:15 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Well, got it listed today. On RVtrader, Craigslist, Keystone Classifieds, Facebook Marketplace. Time to see how the market looks....

I listed at $22k expecting to get haggled some.
Good luck on the sale cookin! Let us know how it goes.
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:27 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Well, got it listed today. On RVtrader, Craigslist, Keystone Classifieds, Facebook Marketplace. Time to see how the market looks....

I listed at $22k expecting to get haggled some.
Yep, good luck! Sold our old Passport on RVTrader in 2017. Craigslist will likely give you the worst options- people who schedule and never show up, people who try to offer you pennies, etc. Craigslist is awesome for selling mowers, tires, tools, etc. but typically awful for selling vehicles and other high dollar items. When you update us, please let us know which service the buyer utilized, for our own future reference.
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Old 05-12-2019, 04:30 AM   #34
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So far, 2 hits on Craigslist. One was a lowball $5k cash offer - I responded I would accept that as a down payment on a realistic sales price, lol.

Other was trying to get me to buy a Vehicle History Report from a suspect link that he provided - pass! I WILL purchase one from instaVIN (NADA partner) once I get notice from the bank via mail that the loan is satisfied (paid in full last week).

The joys of the internet
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:47 AM   #35
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Man....sometimes it sucks doing the right thing...lol

Here is an email I just sent to my only real seriously interested buyer:

Hi David,

Unfortunately this trailer would be a very tall order for any 1/2 ton pick-up. Making matters worse, your Raptor has a lot of the robustness that a normal 1/2 ton has removed in the name of performance (softer springs, shorter wheel base, different brakes and tires).

You are definitely doing the right thing in trying to figure out how you can safely pull the trailer you want. RideRite looks like airbags which are useful to level out the ride of a truck but do not improve its load carrying abilities. While I would love to sell you my trailer, my recommendation would be that if safety is a priority (and it sounds like it is, and should be!) you should strongly consider upgrading to a more capable truck. If you are a Ford fan, I would recommend an F-250 at minimum (otherwise, any 3/4 ton or higher model). You have options about gas vs diesel and other stuff, but pretty much any F-250 should be more than sufficient to pull this trailer safely. You may be able to find a "unicorn" F-150 half-ton with the exact right combination of options to make it work on paper, but it will still not compare to a true Super Duty truck when towing and if you do both, you will immediately understand that difference in comfort, safety, ease of handling, etc. The term people tend to use online is "white knuckling it" when driving with a trailer larger than their truck can comfortably/safely handle. The joy of camping goes up tremendously when you are not exhausted just after driving to the campsite.

I hope this helps some. I know there is a pretty healthy market for used trucks and yours should have a nice resale value as it is before Ford switched to aluminum components, has the older naturally aspirated V8 in stead of the EcoBoost turbo'd V6, etc. A lot of people seem to prefer the older versions. Similarly, I have observed that there is a pretty good selection of used SD/HD trucks as well if you do decide to upgrade.

Please let me know what you want to do and I am here to help as much as I can.

Thanks,


<Buyer> wrote:
Hi, Definitely interested, but I'm concerned about the weight. I have a 2010 raptors, which says towing is 6000 lbs. I'm trying to research why my towing is lower and if there are mods that allow me to tow as much as other f150s. Do you know what drives the difference in towing capacity and if I can change something? I read about riderite.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:00 AM   #36
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Be prepared for a response like:

But I paid $60,000 for this truck and F250's sell for $45,000, so you're telling me that my truck isn't up to the task? I would take too big a loss by trading it in, so I'll keep looking until I find someone who will sell me the trailer I want.

You're right, sometimes it sucks to do the right thing. But, when all is said and done, you'll sleep well at night......
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:05 AM   #37
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Be prepared for a response like:

But I paid $60,000 for this truck and F250's sell for $45,000, so you're telling me that my truck isn't up to the task? I would take too big a loss by trading it in, so I'll keep looking until I find someone who will sell me the trailer I want.

You're right, sometimes it sucks to do the right thing. But, when all is said and done, you'll sleep well at night......
He seems to be approaching it all responsibly, so hats off to him. Hopefully he does the right thing and trades his Raptor for an F-250 and buys my trailer
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:12 AM   #38
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Sam, kudos to you for taking the high road. Good conduct (actually hard work) is its own reward. And John? "When all is said and done there will be more said than done!"
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:20 AM   #39
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If he comes back with, I am going to upgrade my truck, then I will counter with, buy my trailer now and I will deliver it to you so you have it when that new truck is ready.
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:35 AM   #40
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I really hope he understands that the F-250 minimum is the best option here. Are people really that intimidated by the SD/HD trucks?!

Hi David,

The trailer brake controller would be required, my trailer is equipped with electric brakes on the 2 axles and would be needed to safely slow down the trailer (especially in "emergency stop" scenarios). You will need to have a 7-pin trailer trailer connection (brakes + lights) not the usual 4-pin (just lights). Stiffer springs and the longer wheelbase are absolutely factors in trailer towing capacity. Your biggest limitation though will be payload. This is the vertical load you can put on your truck. From what I saw online yesterday, your truck has in the neighborhood of only 1000 pounds of cargo payload rating - my Mazda CX-9 has higher to give some perspective. You can confirm this number by looking at the yellow door jam sticker inside your driver door. 1000 pounds is VERY light for a truck - the Raptor is a "de-tuned" truck in the name of its off-road performance. They were never really intended to haul anything beyond the occasional Home Depot run. If the sales rep told you otherwise, he lied. That payload rating is what you can add to the truck. The number on your door jam sticker, indicates that the truck, as it rolled off the assembly line, can have X stuff added to it. The shipping weight + payload = GVWR for your truck. Out of that payload number you have to subtract the weight of passengers, cargo, equipment added too or loaded in the truck. That would include the weight of the trailer hitch, as well as the tongue weight of the trailer it self. As those both add to the vertical load on the truck. My trailer has a hitch that is probably about 100 pounds itself and a tongue weight I measured at 950 pounds. Your Raptor would be overweight before you even sat in it. A normal F-150 could handle this on paper, I think they can be spec'd up to around 2500 pounds of payload. You still have the issue of trailer weight vs truck weight though with an F-150 vs a F250/350. An F-150 usually will top out around 5000 empty, where as an F-250 will be 7500-8000 pounds. That extra weight helps a ton when managing the trailer and making sure it stays controlled. The Super Duty trucks also have a heavier duty transmission that can handle the weight of the trailer as well as engine braking to control speed safely down hills better as well as heavier duty brakes on the 4 truck wheels which are also important for safely stopping the trailer. It can definitely be pulled by the right F-150, but it will be more stressful than an F-250.

The towing rating is really only indicative of the "horizontal" load that the truck can handle. Mainly, the ability of the truck to stop a load at speed safely - starting slow is not as much of an issue as long as your transmission can handle the load. What the truck manufacturers do not advertise, is that they get their towing ratings certified using "weight sleds" which are like a flatbed trailer with weight added to simulate a load. The reason this is a problem, is that the profile of a travel trailer is much greater than that of a weight sled and because of this, aerodynamics are important. You are pretty much driving a billboard down the road and very subject to crosswinds as well as wind and air pressure created by other passing vehicles. This manifests itself as sway which if unchecked, can lead to dangerous conditions and rolling the trailer and/or truck. The longer wheelbase as well as heavier truck GREATLY help with managing sway. You do not want "the tail wagging the dog" so to speak.

I have measured the trailer tongue weight at about 950 pounds (picture attached - was before the trailer was fully loaded) with about 6500 pounds on the trailer axles (measured at a CAT scale). Conservatively, I would call the trailer 7500 pounds minimum when loaded for a weekend trip with all tanks empty. The trailer has a GVWR of 9660 pounds.

Attached is a picture of the payload rating sticker from my truck so you know what to look for. I pull the trailer with a GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali Diesel and even my truck is close to its limits. It pulls great, but I would prefer to have some more safety margin - I am 300 under the trucks GVWR when I go on a trip.

I would have to strongly recommend you consider and look at SD/HD trucks as they are truly better suited to pulling trailers this size. That being said, it can be done with the right F-150 but I do not think your Raptor can ever be that.

I hope this helps. Please let me know any other questions you can think of.

Thanks,
Sam


<Buyer> wrote:
Thanks for the update. I've seen f-150 variants that have 11000lbs towing capacity. It looks like they have the trailer brake controller, which I can get installed. My truck has the horsepower, so is it just stiffer springs that I need after that? Or do I need the long wheelbase?

How much is your trailer weight in Real life use?
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2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck)
(OLD) 2018 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali Diesel (Crew Cab | 6.6 Ft bed)
2019 Grand Design Solitude S-Class 3740BH-R Fifth Wheel (Onan 5500W LP Generator | MORryde SRE4000 Suspension | 3x Cross Members | Sailun S637 ST | Reese GooseBox 20k 2nd Gen)
(OLD) 2018 Keystone Hideout 28RKS Travel Trailer
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