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Old 03-20-2012, 11:50 AM   #1
geo
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Arctic/Polar/Glacier Tank Enclosure Observations, Part 2a

If you dig back through the Forum, you will find the first part of this observation at:

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4784

Here again, the following Disclaimer applies: All views and observations expressed are personal and based upon examination of one particular unit of the Keystone Alpine 3640RL. Etc., etc., etc. Also, I would not recommend anyone whose Keystone One Year Warranty is still in affect to even think about doing any of this type work! I also know that one of our members formerly worked at a Keystone RV dealer in the Repair Department. I would welcome his comments to these posts and hope he will add his observations.

++++++++++++++++

If you read the first part of this observation, you will know that I am in the process of adding UltraHeat Tank Heaters to my Alpine. The second part of this installation involves something that I know there will be gasps of surprise and feelings of doom, so I might as well get it over:

I used a box cutter to cut the coroplast twice to remove a six foot section. I cut the aluminum-lined bubble wrap only on one side and wrapped it over the axle to keep it out of the way.

OK, anyone pass out? Still here? Good. Hey, it's not the end of the world. I'll tell you how to fix and seal the cuts up later. Just look at the good information you are getting! Apologies to our Canadian members if you don't mind for brevity (Ha! As if I could be brief!) I only utilize Imperial measurements and drop the Metric. Also, because of the limit of attached pictures, I have broken this post into two parts. (Need to set up a Photobucket account!) A different post on Modification will discuss the UltraHeat tank heaters.

++++++++++++++++

Because of the gas supply iron pipe running alongside the port side of the underbelly, I chose to cut a six foot section of the coroplast out from about the forward edge of the door to the area above the forward axle. I removed the bolts holding the coroplast on the I-beam on the starboard side. I gently pulled the edge of the coroplast down to shine a flashlight inside to check my location. Then out came the box cutter and the slicing began! I first cut along one channel of the coroplast, not all the way through, for both entire widths of the underbelly. I then returned to the cut on the starboard side and gently pulled the coroplast down for the final cut. I then removed the bolts holding the gas pipe in that area, gently pulled the pipe down, and cut the coroplast above it. Once that was completed, I cut the aluminum-sided bubble wrap along the forward side and wrapped it around the forward axle to keep it from blowing in the wind and form a wind break for me.

All I could do was shake my head; what can I say? There was a 4' wide piece of fiberglass insulation stretching from immediately behind the fresh water tank forward to below the Gray2 tank. The Gray2 tank is only 32 gallons and stretches from one side I-beam to the other, which means it is a very shallow tank. There was probably at least 4" of space between the bottom of the tank and the top of the fiberglass. The R-7 fiberglass did not reach the I-beams but fell about a foot short on each side. The bottom of the Fresh Water tank was deeply nestled in the fiberglass but open along each side near the I-beams. Again, this insulation stopped immediately forward of the Gray2 tank and immediately aft of the Fresh Water tank. As said before, I am not an "insulation engineer", but I believe I know enough about insulation to say, this single sparse pad of R-7 insulation holds very little insulating value when compared to the vast open area available for cold air intrusion and conduction presented by the rest of the underbelly. (See Looking_Aft.jpg) In this picture, one can see the furnace ducts and cross-bracing along with a darkness of "nothing". Note the dusty area of the aluminum-coated bubble wrap versus the shiny area. Again, I found about a half-cup of water in the belly primarily on the bubble wrap. This has pretty much convinced me that the moisture is condensation from warmer air in the void area of the belly being cooled to drop its moisture content which pools on the bubble wrap. Note how the moisture has been diverted by the discarded cable strap in the picture.

Looking forward from my "belly hole", I can see the maze of ducts descending from a fitting on the lower sub-basement ceiling. (Forward.jpg) The drain for the Gray2 is to the left along with the duct for the kitchen furnace vent. (The black ribbed pipe is something I added two years ago to try to prop this duct from being pinched by the power cable.) The two other insulated ducts pass to the starboard side and run back to the two vents in the living area. The aluminum duct is from the forward duct that supplies warmed air on the Black and Gray1 tank valves and ends with an open duct directed at the Gray2 tank valve. (Gray2_heat.jpg)

That is it – that is the "heated tank area" of my Alpine Arctic R-37 Package! Two paltry pieces of R-7 insulation (front and rear tank areas) along with a 2.5" duct venting to the three valves.

Two years ago, I was trying to solve a problem with my fresh water fill. During this process, I stuck my hand and camera down a hole beneath the pantry and took the attached picture. (Port_side.jpg) At the time, I didn't know how to interpret this photograph, but now I fully understand it. The darkness to the right is the I-beam. The area is specked with construction dust and bits. The shiny black to the upper left is the Gray2 tank. Upper center one can see the sensors on this tank (bolts with nuts) and to the right of those the ribbed fresh water fill line and the associated fresh water tank vent line. To the lower left, the furnace duct for the kitchen heating vent passed under the Gray2 tank. Various power wires lay in the foreground. The dusty black cable is the shore power cable coming from the rear of the Alpine. However, from the back, one can see a white Pex pipe passing under the shore power cable. That Pex pipe is the fresh water feed line to the Shur-Flo pump! And it is pressed onto the bubble wrap/coroplast by the shore power cable right next to the I-beam. Neither well insulation nor isolated! In the far background, one can barely make out the toothed slide mechanism for the kitchen slide.

The toothed slide mechanism can be better seen in Slide_gear.jpg. Note, the Fresh Water tank to the left and the Gray2 tank to the right separated by a cross-beam member. The R-7 insulation was pressed beneath this cross-beam member providing a large uninsulated volume between the tanks.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:45 AM   #2
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Polar Package

I have a Keystone 31SQB and just recently started to remove my "insulation" to troubleshoot a brake problem. I honestly believe that while the board may provide some insulation, it is there moreso for the manufacturer to be able to wire up etc. these campers quicker and cheaper. My wiring is all laid on the board and since my camper is a bit cheaper than yours, I don't have the alumdidum foil insulation. You mentioned cutting into the board and I agree that is what I will ultimately have to do if the brake issue is a wiring problem in the underbelly. So far I found a weak ground and I am going to test drive soon to see if I fixed the issue by scraping paint off around the connection. Keystone was too lazy to do that I guess. It's a nice camper and Keystone seems to do a good job for the most part, but this insulation is lacking and a pain. I have the same issue with the propane line keeping me from removing the board in full. Along with that there are other obsticles to get around too.

One funny thing on mine is that there is a piece of that board about 8x8 that is screwed up to the main board and I thought maybe it was an access hole that someone cut, but when I removed it, there was no hole. They just put a piece on the main board for whatever reason. You wouldn't happen to know where I could buy more would you? Do you think it would invalidate a warranty to just remove the board to look at things?
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:28 AM   #3
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Happytrails -

Sorry to take so long to reply, I've been on a trip that took us out of Internet range.

I am not sure about the "board" you are referring to. Do you mean the "plastic cardboard" that is the underbelly cover? That would be the coroplast, aka "Corrugated Underbelly Material". Flyguy some time back referenced many suppliers of RV repair parts, and one of his references is one fantastic website: Factory RV Surplus - http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/. There you can find the "Corrugated Underbelly Material - 50705" sold by the foot. http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/prod...roduct_id=2212 That is also where I purchased the Underbelly Tape to patch the areas I cut the coroplast. http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/prod...roduct_id=2213

As far as warranty issues are concerned, I have experienced a fairly firm line as far as Keystone Corporation is concerned. If you removed a couple of screws that hold the coroplast, peeked inside, and then replaced them exactly and didn't say anything . . . well, how would Keystone know? If you cut the coroplast - I would say that you might be in warranty void range there. If you want to preserve your one year Keystone warranty, check with the Keystone Customer Service (available on Keystone's website) first before doing anything!

Ron
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:37 AM   #4
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Between your troubles and mine, I’m not sure if I should look for the inferior workmanship items or just turn my back and hope it doesn’t happen to my 318. This post has given me incentive, preventative maintenance lives. Thank you for your time and trouble.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geo View Post
Happytrails -

Sorry to take so long to reply, I've been on a trip that took us out of Internet range.

I am not sure about the "board" you are referring to. Do you mean the "plastic cardboard" that is the underbelly cover? That would be the coroplast, aka "Corrugated Underbelly Material". Flyguy some time back referenced many suppliers of RV repair parts, and one of his references is one fantastic website: Factory RV Surplus - http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/. There you can find the "Corrugated Underbelly Material - 50705" sold by the foot. http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/prod...roduct_id=2212 That is also where I purchased the Underbelly Tape to patch the areas I cut the coroplast. http://www.factoryrvsurplus.com/prod...roduct_id=2213

As far as warranty issues are concerned, I have experienced a fairly firm line as far as Keystone Corporation is concerned. If you removed a couple of screws that hold the coroplast, peeked inside, and then replaced them exactly and didn't say anything . . . well, how would Keystone know? If you cut the coroplast - I would say that you might be in warranty void range there. If you want to preserve your one year Keystone warranty, check with the Keystone Customer Service (available on Keystone's website) first before doing anything!

Ron
Very nice! Thank you for the link and yes that's the "board" I was referring to. I wasn't sure what it was called.

I managed to track down my brake problems in what I would say is inferior design in the brake drum. I will be fixing that myself rather than trying to drive all around with my camper to figure out how to get it covered. It would cost more to have the free work done (if they even would at this point) than it will cost to do the repairs myself. As many others have said on this and other sites, the wires for the magnet come off the clip in the drum/hub and rub against it wearing down the insulation to the bare wire and in my case on one, wore through the wire itself. I did a small repair job before I drove up and down the Shenandoah mountains this past weekend and it lasted long enough to get most of the way back down the mountain on the return trip but started to show its butt again about half way down. Not good!! Thankfully my truck is only a year old and the brakes are pretty darn good still.

I will be working on the brakes again tonight and maybe tomorrow. I have a solution to re-route the wires so they hopefully won't rub again.


*****Edit
I owe Dexter Axle a bit of an apology because I first posted this referring to Dexter Axle and I do not have Dexter Axles. I did contact the manufacturer I do have after I made all the repairs to EVERY brake. They contacted me back and have requested all the information and pictures which I have emailed to them. I hope to hear back from them soon. I'm not sure what they can/will do at this point since I fixed them, but I did tell them that I don't like the way I had to fix them with butt-splices being a point of failure as well as the wire routing through the tension spring. I will update when I find out more.

*****Edit #2
The manufacturer emailed me back just a bit ago and has agreed to send me four new magnets and are willing to pay up to 3 hours of labor if I choose to have them done at a repair shop. That is a good resolution in my opinion. Now I will tell you that the manufacturer is AL-KO Axle, or I believe they are now AL-KO Axis...I think.
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