The Weight Police - half wrong/half right

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

To any traffic cops I worked with or when I did traffic enforcement. Overweight tickets by myself and others in Oregon were and are issued for overweight vehicles and can be on any vehicle. I once wrote an overweight ticket on a utility trailer carrying candles, that was after a injury crash. DOT enforcement is a whole different thing.
When I was with OSP each fall for years we would work wood cutters for overweight and weighted RVs if we wanted at the same time at a scale station.
But I will not go through all pages of the first posting. Just a question about your scale weights.
Did you check the empty trucks axle wts. I seen a post with the front and rear axle wt. with trailer connected. That added weight on the rear is important but so is the lesser amount of the front axle wt. Those two added together will give you a better real tongue wt. I did not see the truck empty axle wts.

I can’t speak for Oregon, just California. No Vehicle Code violation or DOT violation except for commercially registered rigs. I assume each state would be different though.

For the weights, yes the CAT scale is a mile from my home so I have been able to weigh all kinds of combinations. The CAT app has been great for that too. No need to go inside.

If interested I can supply you with any weights from my truck/trailer combos. That actually taught me a lot.

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by KimNTerry

There fixed that for ya.

The payload capacity as you mentioned is variable every 10 pounds in or on the truck is -10 from the payload.

What we mere mortals can't change (without a lot of money anyways) is the GVWR as stated on the FMVSS.

If I remove the 40 pound factory running boards and 100 pound factory tail gate then I actually increase my payload as that is factory equipment removed the truck. (NOTE: if you have to resort to that tactic to get the payload you need, you need a different tow vehicle!) I'm just providing an example.

Adding additional springs, heavier tires and axles actually reduces payload because the parts are heavier than the stock OEM parts.

Just run it across the scale before and after and the math is the proof.

Fully agree. Well stated.

[vampress_me]

“ F250 6.7 Cummins”????

Where do I get one of these?!?!? Well, I guess I’d prefer an F-350 DRW Cummins, but I think that is about as rare as a 250 with a Cummins…. You are either incorrect on your trucks, or incorrect on the info about all the trucks, don’t know which. But, I will get my popcorn popping before I sit back and read anymore of a post on how everyone on this site except the “you can tow what you want with any Yugo” people are totally wrong and off their rocker.

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Well I for one learned something. Our expert (sorry I couldn't read the entire tome that written) did point out that Ford is now using a 6.7L Cummins engine. About time they dropped the International now Ford diesel engine! I want a straight six Cummins with the fancy 10 speed! Well, anyway, someone seems to have more hands on their time than I do bwhahahaha Good luck Mr. OP!

Where do you read 6.7l Cummins?

I wrote F250 Diesel, which is a 6.7l power stroke.

Edited: Wait I see it. I wrote 6.7 F250 diesel on one and Cummins on the other. NOT Cummins. That was the RAM. The F250 was the 6.7l Powerstroke. I’ll fix that.

[Javi]

This is really painful 🤯

[Yareelohim]

You should read it. It’s not at all what you implying.

Actually many weight police were great and on point. I learned a lot from them.

But there were a bunch who were way off and I had to go Investigate as a result.

[Yareelohim]

Point out one area you think you disagree with.

I bet you can’t if you actually read it.

So far those thinking they disagree have actually just reiterated what I already stated.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

You just correctly reiterated exactly what I already said. But then you quoted and said you don’t agree with what we both agree on.

You need to re read that.

1) Payload Capacity of the truck
And
3) Payload Capacity of the tires

…are two separate payloads.

Per GM, if you want to reach the payload capacity of the truck, increase the payload of the tires by going from factory Passenger tires to LT rated tires.

Per GM, you are now limited to the higher capacity of (1) the truck and no longer limited the lower capacity of (3) the tires.

See…you said the same thing I did. You even said the same thing GM did. And you agreed.

I'm not going into all the things I think are incorrect in your post, or what I perceive incorrect by the wording BUT....

First to clear the air; I would be greatly surprised, overcome actually, if you actually talked to a viable engineer at GM that discussed their manufacturing thoughts and processes. Whoever you talked to, by what I interpret, did you a disservice and gave you bad info.

The GVWR of the truck is the GVWR of the truck, tires don't have anything to do with it UNLESS (a situation I've never encountered) the tires cannot support the given GVWR of the truck. The conversations we have (as far as I know) assume the tires on the truck can support the GVWR BUT going to an LT tire, a much stouter tire, gives a truck that had P rated auto tires on it much more support and resistance to the inherent movement of a weak sided P rated tire. If you do go to the LT tire, no, you don't just phone in and they send you a new gvwr (or payload rating) for the truck so you can stick it on there. It just doesn't work that way and whoever told you that is wrong. A new sticker can be had, with the proper work done by a certified modifier (as one person has) and a submission made for a new sticker, but in most people's opinion a different truck is the better option.

As far as GVW of the trailer, yes it can be reached. Maybe not by you but I can assure you your 24xx or whatever it was carrying capacity can be reached by others, that's the reason for the general guidelines based on gvw vs "what mine weighs". You ever went in someone's trailer that carries 2 sets of cast iron pots and pans, cupboards full of regular china dishes, glassware etc. etc. etc.? I have. You can load TONS of misc. in a trailer. People do it in trucks as well - all the reason to use the gvw vs "minimum packing" weights - to keep folks safe.

In every case we always say that a trip to the scales is the definitive answer and I would hazard a guess a very small percentage do that - they guestimate and always assume "shoot, I don't carry anything at all"; that's proven wrong most of the time.

The average tongue/pin weights we use to guestimate a given situation are accurate for 99% of cases that I've seen. Always has been for me or I wouldn't cite them.

1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton in your opinion? That's a seatpants call that you make. In the end the "weight police" aren't giving bad info; maybe some folks don't give enough OR take that extra step and hit a scale OR are 100% adamant that they know exactly what that 1/2 ton can do......including tugging the Titanic with the space shuttle in the bed......

You have satisfied yourself that you are good, and I think you probably are based on everything you've said, but, you took the time to scale your rig. Hard to "guestimate" numbers if you actually went to a scale and got actuals. Good luck with your choice.

[Yareelohim]

Sourdough…

Fully agree with everything you said there and I don’t believe I said anything to the contrary in my post.

My cautions are people assuming the max and quoting you are way over weight based on the max.

My max is 7500lbs not 10k lbs which greatly affects the tongue and payload. My dry weight label was 7100lbs. People were adamant I was over weight.

I think you would agree with me that’s a bit excessive to say I’m over weight/payload because I might hit 10k one day? That’s my point. Even at my trailers GVWR of 9500 I was near max but just under still.

Although I do see your point as well of assuming high to be cautious. I can appreciate that and don’t fault it.

Regarding the tires. Here is my exact scenario and I think you’ll agree with it:

My trucks GVWR minus Curb Weight is 1500 lbs right now (it’s loaded up).

My P rated tire sticker is 1300lbs because that’s all they can carry at 32psi.

My LT tires are 2883 lbs

Therefore I can go Up to the 1500lbs of payload left on my truck, but NOT exceed it, up to it.


…and yes the weight certification process was originally included but I deleted it to condense this down. 10min process 5 miles from my home.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

…and yes the weight certification process was originally included but I deleted it to condense this down. 10min process 5 miles from my home.

Where and who? I might want to change my truck.

[Javi]

The real weight police in Texas are going to look at three things and that tire sticker ain't one of them.
They will look at the registration weight, the manufacturer's placard with the certified GVWR and finally they will check the tires to determine whether the tires equal or exceed the GVWR of the vehicle.
The tire sticker is informational but not binding.

And yes this is still painful ��

[flybouy]

I feel like I've been reading manuscript of a parent explaining to their teenager why they shouldn't get a full body tattoo, facial rings, and drop out of school along with the tenager's narrativge of why they should and how they are rationalizing it. I'm exhausted.

[Ken / Claudia]

What would answer my question is listing the axle wt.s of your truck unloaded. and then with trailer attached. I don't care about GVWR or GVW in my question.

How I enforced weight after vehicle left scale on typical DOT vehicle get wt. regs on vehicle that shows what weight they paid for. Next read tire size to determine wt. for each axle max. There are other things like how many axles and spacing on non typical DOT Trucks to determine if weight is legal.

Non DOT vehicle after scale wt. look at GVWR, than tire max. wt. rating on sidewall of tire. If vehicle is over a year old it likely has replacement tires. Many are different size, normally bigger.
It would be a uphill battle to prove a vehicle is overweight in court if the tires on it were not overweight and the axles were not overweight but the tire placard said it was if it had different tires. That's not a case I would expect to win and Judges I have been in front of could say bad things about me.

Same type of issue goes for the few who put a 1500 cab and bed on a 3500 frame and suspension. In Oregon backyard builders do silly things like that. The VIN is used from the body, but in reality the truck is a 3500 for load concerns.

[jasin1]

Wow …. Got to hand it to you…in 9 months you 1)managed to get five different friends to lend you their new or nearly new trucks to tow your rig across a couple of states
2) contacted and corresponded and got advice with an engineer at General Motors

3) figured out how to get new certified payload stickers for trucks

4) spoke with the rv manufacturer’s engineering dept and they explained how they determine pin weight

5) spoke with California Highway patrol to determine legality of towing overloaded

6) rolled all of this together in a “study” to determine the best tow vehicle for your particular trailer..( seemingly to prove the WP wrong?)

All of this done in a year where the entire country/ world has been practically shut down as far as reaching anyone on the phone…most customer service has been relegated to working from home.

You were very busy my friend…my hats off to you

Please don’t take offense…I’m just kidding around

Happy Camping!

[xrated]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

You just correctly reiterated exactly what I already said. But then you quoted and said you don’t agree with what we both agree on.

You need to re read that.

1) Payload Capacity of the truck
And
3) Payload Capacity of the tires

…are two separate payloads.

Per GM, if you want to reach the payload capacity of the truck, increase the payload of the tires by going from factory Passenger tires to LT rated tires.

Per GM, you are now limited to the higher capacity of (1) the truck and no longer limited the lower capacity of (3) the tires.

See…you said the same thing I did. You even said the same thing GM did. And you agreed.

I think you have a reading comprehension issue, I disagree with almost everything you wrote....

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by jasin1

Wow …. Got to hand it to you…in 9 months you 1)managed to get five different friends to lend you their new or nearly new trucks to tow your rig across a couple of states
2) contacted and corresponded and got advice with an engineer at General Motors

3) figured out how to get new certified payload stickers for trucks

4) spoke with the rv manufacturer’s engineering dept and they explained how they determine pin weight

5) spoke with California Highway patrol to determine legality of towing overloaded

6) rolled all of this together in a “study” to determine the best tow vehicle for your particular trailer..( seemingly to prove the WP wrong?)

All of this done in a year where the entire country/ world has been practically shut down as far as reaching anyone on the phone…most customer service has been relegated to working from home.

You were very busy my friend…my hats off to you

Please don’t take offense…I’m just kidding around

Happy Camping!

No offense taken. That is literal the exact thing I did, verbatim. I’m also the guy who spent his college careers studying on 5 different continents just to expand my world views lol . I’m weird like that.


But not with the intention to prove anyone wrong. It was with the intention to understand and learn more. This post is because some of the weight police gave information that was contrary to the engineers and manufacturers or were giving half the information. But there were other WP that were really good and helped me a ton.

I’m not done.
Still testing and finding what truck I will ultimately buy. If I don’t stick with my 1/2 ton Denali. The newly designed GM 3/4-1 ton 6.6L GAS is next on the list. I’m thinking that may be the truck I’ll ultimately settle on but have to tow with it on the next trip. I have ruled out any need for a diesel. Love the diesels but I just don’t do any traveling or towing where they would shine. The truck is my daily driver and my commute is only 15 miles one way and mostly stop and go traffic.

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by Javi

The real weight police in Texas are going to look at three things and that tire sticker ain't one of them.
They will look at the registration weight, the manufacturer's placard with the certified GVWR and finally they will check the tires to determine whether the tires equal or exceed the GVWR of the vehicle.
The tire sticker is informational but not binding.

And yes this is still painful ��

Yep…same thing I learned from GM but others keep saying GM is wrong.

[Yareelohim]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

What would answer my question is listing the axle wt.s of your truck unloaded. and then with trailer attached. I don't care about GVWR or GVW in my question.

CAT Scale Weights
Unloaded:
Front = 3260
Rear = 2480
Total =5740

Trailer attached (fully loaded):
Front = 3000
Rear = 3560
Total = 6560

Trailer axle: 6640
GCW = 13200

Trailer detached:
Dry trailer = 7460

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Yareelohim

Yep…same thing I learned from GM but others keep saying GM is wrong.

Who, what and where with the GM information? Corporate engineers in Detroit? Hillbilly Fred at Podunk Motors in HolyCow AR? Who gave you all that inside information? Hard to get for any of my fleet managers back in the day; from a GM perspective (or Dodge/Ram/Ford) you don't exist. Something to verify those assertions of your inside track at GM would be beneficial for your cause.

[Yareelohim]

Sourdough,

This is from connecting with GM corporate and current GM engineers. I am fairly well connected and was fortunate to have a connection to them.

I better add this to:
One Engineer even said you can go on to the website to build a truck with all your options. By switching only the tires from 18” to 20” you’ll increase the trucks payload that will ship out to you.

I was considering building a truck at the time.

I know you said, “The GVWR of the truck is the GVWR of the truck, tires don't have anything to do with it UNLESS (a situation I've never encountered) the tires cannot support the given GVWR of the truck.”

If you go to the build site you’ll see by changing ONLY the tires, you can actually raise or lower the GVWR of the truck like the engineers said. You can also have the 3/4 ton trucks certified at 10k lbs and shipped with that sticker even though their actual GVWR is 11,350 lbs. No change in anything.

I learned a ton from GM. I hope the picture examples go through.