Double haul

[brianshellhart]

Does anybody know what a retractable bumper when it's pushed all the way in the weight that it can hold? It's a 4x4 tube steel at least 1/8 inch thick maybe 3/16. I've got a setup I was hauling my motorcycle on a small trailer behind my fifth wheel I added a rear view camera so I can constantly watch what's going on behind my camper while I'm going down the road but now I'm looking to get a bigger trailer. It's going to be a horse trailer what I'm going to do is put my motorcycle and the horse in that trailer and haul them behind my fifth wheel I'll have to run 7-way wire back to the back which I've already done with four way not that big of a deal I know how I will do it. Just wondering what the weight that bumper can hold.

[notanlines]

Brian, we just had a detailed discussion of this very subject about a week ago. Our magnificent search function will spit that out with no trouble....
The main thing settled on was to ----can that pull-out bumper POS and have a certified welder build and install a hitch that will handle the weight of your loaded trailer and the tongue weight of said trailer.
Triple towing a horse trailer with horses/motorcycles, etc gets to be a little more than our Road King and sidecar on the utility trailer.

[brianshellhart]

Well I am a certified welder have been for a while there's nothing wrong with using that pull out unless it's pulled out that's where you come in trouble you have three feet of extra steel inside a tube that is secured with a pin that 4x4 bumper that's 3/16 thick can take the weight of 800 lb maybe more I mean I'm I'm a certified structural welder I'm a certified pipe welder there's nothing wrong with the hitch just answered my own question really talking to you I mean the tongue weight is all I have to worry about I don't have to worry about the weight of the trailer after that because that's on tires and axles it's just a tongue weight I guess I need to worry about and really it's not going to exceed 800 lb so I should be good the wiring back to it if I tie into what's coming out of my metal fifth wheel into the front compartment down into the wire cluster there I can tie all my wires in and I should have brakes and everything. I do agree with you however hauling a horse is a little bit different than a 4x4 or a motorcycle on the back with the trailer however it can be done and I'll get her

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by brianshellhart

Well I am a certified welder have been for a while there's nothing wrong with using that pull out unless it's pulled out that's where you come in trouble you have three feet of extra steel inside a tube that is secured with a pin that 4x4 bumper that's 3/16 thick can take the weight of 800 lb maybe more I mean I'm I'm a certified structural welder I'm a certified pipe welder there's nothing wrong with the hitch just answered my own question really talking to you I mean the tongue weight is all I have to worry about I don't have to worry about the weight of the trailer after that because that's on tires and axles it's just a tongue weight I guess I need to worry about and really it's not going to exceed 800 lb so I should be good the wiring back to it if I tie into what's coming out of my metal fifth wheel into the front compartment down into the wire cluster there I can tie all my wires in and I should have brakes and everything. I do agree with you however hauling a horse is a little bit different than a 4x4 or a motorcycle on the back with the trailer however it can be done and I'll get her

Don't get caught up in the trap of "The bumper is strong enough to carry the load so I'll be OK" ....

Look about 10' forward at the two axles. Crawl under the trailer and note the axle tag. Chances are, if your trailer is similar in weight to mine, you've got two 4400 pound axles under the trailer. With a GVWR of 10K, that's 1200 pounds on the pin at "max trailer load". Remember, like a "teeter totter" as you put weight on one end (the new hitch you're installing) you remove weight from the trailer pin/tongue. All that weight, as you "teeter the totter" is carried by those axles.... It's real easy to overload those axles and wind up with either a busted spindle or bearings that come "UNGLUED at 70MPH" leaving you with a catastrophic failure and a live animal plus a motorcycle "swinging in the breeze".....

Think beyond the "hitch weight/tongue weight of the horse trailer being under the bumper maximum weight"...

On the trailer as it was "built by Keystone" the axles are "bare minumum"... If you go adding 350 pounds to the rear and removing 50-100 pounds from the pin/tongue, you're putting a tremendous added weight on the axles, particularly the rear axle, and that may become the "weakest link that completely fails at the first bad bump in the road".....

I regularly double tow either a bass boat or a SlingShot on an aluminum flatbed trailer. Both are around 2500-3000 pounds with roughly 300 pounds of tongue weight. About a year ago I had a bearing failure and lost a wheel/hub assembly while entering a campground (about 3-5 MPH). Fortunately I was able to stop the rig within a couple of feet and didn't have any significant damage other than the axle/hub parts. I have not double towed since then. The ONLY thing I can come up with that caused the bearing failure is "running the axles at/possibly over their 4400 pound maximum. Before I double tow again, I'll have 6000 pound axles under my trailer. I'm convinced my failure is directly related to overloading the rear axle even though my 'trailer weights" were well below the GVWR.

[brianshellhart]

I understand what you are saying and is a good point. To the fact of 70mph I get there sometimes but I usually I'm at 60-65 however if I am going to haul livestock it will have to be 60. In regards to the bumper I have it set up center of bumper to allow equal weight distribution. Far as the axel goes and bearing weight there must be equation that can be performed to know how much weight is already on them and add the 350 maybe 400 lbs. Weight of bike is 500 horse 900 so that has to be added by 10% to whatever the tongue weight of the horse trailer is.

[brianshellhart]

Also wouldn't it kind of be like when you overload your trailer and it's too much for your truck you blow tires before you blow an entire bearing hub and everything else out on it?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by brianshellhart

Also wouldn't it kind of be like when you overload your trailer and it's too much for your truck you blow tires before you blow an entire bearing hub and everything else out on it?

I'm not an automotive engineer and I'm certainly no metallurgist, so my "hunches about why I lost an axle are not based in scientific calculations"... They're based on my hunches after ruling out everything else I could think of that might have caused the failure... As for "tires blowing before the bearings", the axle is rated at 4400 pounds (the bearings might carry 15,000 for all I know) but the rating is 4400 pounds. The tires are rated at 2830 each (5660 for the axle) so I'd guess that of the two, the tires are going to hold together longer, based exclusively on rated weight capacity....

Like you, I usually travel at 65MPH, I used 70MPH because I'm almost always being passed by RV'ers rather than passing them. That, to me, is indicative of the majority traveling faster than me.... Good to know you're not one of them.

Anyway, in my "feeble brain" the tires would hold together longer or the bearings would fail at a lower weight than the tires based on "ratings alone"...

[flybouy]

"To the fact of 70mph I get there sometimes but I usually I'm at 60-65 however if I am going to haul livestock it will have to be 60. "

Sounds to me like you've made up your mind and you're justifying your decision. Weight is weight, 10 lbs is 10 lbs at any speed. I don't see any appreciable difference in 60 mph vs 70 mph as far as the bearing failure. JMHO

[Javi]

Originally Posted by flybouy

"To the fact of 70mph I get there sometimes but I usually I'm at 60-65 however if I am going to haul livestock it will have to be 60. "

Sounds to me like you've made up your mind and you're justifying your decision. Weight is weight, 10 lbs is 10 lbs at any speed. I don't see any appreciable difference in 60 mph vs 70 mph as far as the bearing failure. JMHO

Either way if the hitch breaks loose or the bearings fail it ain't gonna be a good thing for the horse...

[Ken / Claudia]

I am not a welder, but I know the pull out bumper on my trailer says 250 lb limit. I know that bumper has crappy supports that fail. I know people have had those bumpers fail from the stresses of using them. I know that when mine is pulled out it has a up and down movement of several inches. Even while retracted it has up/down movement. That means everything is bouncing when in use. I know that affects the metal, welds, supports. I know I will not take that chance of mine failing. The bumpers are so thin some bend from the on road stresses when carrying more than a spare tire. Maybe yours is built better than mine.

If I was a welder I would ditch the cheapo set up and weld to the frame.
Someday when traveling look at the stuff people mount to the rear of their trailers and on those bumpers and pull out trays. Few are solid or stable.
I should add that in this state many tow 2 trailers on a nearby highway I see them everyday. TT or 5th wheel is allowed. I have only seem a few up close at stop lights to look at the rear trailer hitch. So far they are a frame mounted hitch under the bumper and again I am not a welder, but that's the way I would do it and might someday.

[brianshellhart]

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. However it's not about being a welder to what we're talking about welding is child's Play anybody can do it takes 5 minutes to learn how to weld but it takes 15 years to learn how to master. As far as it goes with the bumper like I stated previously when you pull that bumper out there is issues and I would not hook up another trailer behind the bumper that was pulled out. As far as the metal goes being too thin justifiably so after I looked at it again it's not 3/16 thick I mean that would be the other option cut the damn thing off and put on three 4x4 that's 3/16 thick you're not going to bend nothing with that unless it's forcibly ran into I maybe do need to rethink the process by which I want to do this. I definitely don't want anything to happen to my buddy that wouldn't be good. In the motorcycle that wouldn't be good either so after all the comments I appreciate it would really have to look and see how far back those I beams run cuz if it's 2 ft short of the bumper then there's different issues. Y'all have made good points I will definitely rethink an investigate the best way to do it

[Ken / Claudia]

Lets us know how you solve the problem, it should be doable with the right welding and materials. Really grab hold of the bumper while its retracted and see the up/down play. Check out the "L" brackets the bumper sides on. There have been posts on here in the past that guys fixed all the weak issues of the bumper and its mounts and seem happy with the their results.
My opinion on the bumpers goes along with just about everything on a RV. They came built to just be barely minimum for what is needed to do as advertised.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by brianshellhart

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. However it's not about being a welder to what we're talking about welding is child's Play anybody can do it takes 5 minutes to learn how to weld but it takes 15 years to learn how to master. As far as it goes with the bumper like I stated previously when you pull that bumper out there is issues and I would not hook up another trailer behind the bumper that was pulled out. As far as the metal goes being too thin justifiably so after I looked at it again it's not 3/16 thick I mean that would be the other option cut the damn thing off and put on three 4x4 that's 3/16 thick you're not going to bend nothing with that unless it's forcibly ran into I maybe do need to rethink the process by which I want to do this. I definitely don't want anything to happen to my buddy that wouldn't be good. In the motorcycle that wouldn't be good either so after all the comments I appreciate it would really have to look and see how far back those I beams run cuz if it's 2 ft short of the bumper then there's different issues. Y'all have made good points I will definitely rethink an investigate the best way to do it

If I remember correctly the bumpers are 20 gage CRS... The Avalanche doesn't have a bumper but my last 5th wheel did and it had the telescoping bumper... You really need to lay down under it and LOOK... I wouldn't pull a 10ft flat bed trailer with it..

And my qualifications for that statement are 60+ years designing stuff made of metal and running businesses which make stuff out of metal...

[brianshellhart]

20 gauge probably right maybe 18. I'm definitely going to check it out. Like I said I appreciate everybody's comments and and qualifications I'm definitely going to find the safest way not the cheapest way the safest way to do it and I'll definitely let you all know the outcome I'll leave and take pictures

[brianshellhart]

So after closer inspection I have a tank at the back end of my camper I was thinking about doing a pre-made hitch that expands and contracts the width of the eye beams drilling holes and mounting a hitch however I can't do that because I have a tank there in place what I'm planning on doing is cutting up the existing bumper mounting it directly to the I beams on the bottom and welding it in place. thoughts anyone?? I added pictures one of them you can see the clip that's welded in place has already bent out so me hauling my motorcycle cause that clip to bend outward so I think it's the better welded in place I've got about 2 ft that I can do 100% weld or 1 in stitches on both sides alternating the entire 2 ft

[Blackrock]

Box that in good and use stitch welds. Add Vee bracing with flat bar from the channels to the center of what will be the new rear bumper. Should be plenty stout.

[brianshellhart]

Gussets are already on it but why would I box it in it's not making it any more structurally sound just cut it where it needs to be and stitch weld it all the way back. It's taking what's already been provided cutting it up add ing maybe another half inch to it cut up that 2x2 stack it on top of one another depending on how much room I need to clear the back end

[brianshellhart]

Now the question is just how far out do I want that bumper do I want the entire platform so I can set more stuff on it or just keep the bumper closed

[notanlines]

Brian, your horse called and he said keep it closed, please!

[brianshellhart]

Originally Posted by notanlines

Brian, your horse called and he said keep it closed, please!

LOL yeah I know 😂😄😄😄 I'm just playing but I do have to figure out how I'm going to get my dorm fridge around. Maybe just throw it in the 5ther under the table or something