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Old 06-05-2021, 08:47 AM   #21
Brob
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
If you can build a far supirior trailer by constructing it "properly" without any additional cost then do it! You would be a fool not to because you would have wealth beyound beleif. After 1 introductory post 4+ years ago when you moved into the trailer (still don't know if you bought it new or used) you return with nothing but complaints?

Good luck to you and I wish you well.
Yes, I made an introductory post 4 years ago and then came back with my observation that the build quality of this substantial investment is poor. In fact it is embarrassingly poor. I noted a few improvements that would not cost the manufacturer anything more and yield a much better product for the purchaser. I AM a builder and I HAVE built dwellings on a trailer frame, which I can assure you will NEVER experience any of the issues I noted because I used proper building techniques.

If you ever tear into your Keystone RV I can guarantee you that you too will be disappointed...
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Old 06-05-2021, 09:25 AM   #22
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This just seems silly to bring up the issues after 19 years. RVs are expected to last about 10 years as long as proper maintenance is done every year or semi yearly. None built to live in full time except a few. This 1 was not.
2.5 years everyday day use was like what most camping RVers might do in in more than 10 years. What's the nation wide average use of a RV 2-3 weeks.
When that unit was purchased new, anyone who looks closely at materials, furniture, roof, appliances can tell it's not like any stick built home.

Rv's were never intended to be a good investment, fact is they are all mostly a money pit. Some find out that fact too late.

Anyone want to hear me complain about replacing an engine after only 200,000 miles in a Chev. Shocks on a 14 year old Hummer, patio door track on a 2 year old home.
How about a Airstream TT built in 1964 and had a soft floor in 2003.
Sorry guys, I had some extra time this morning. Anyone one need a tissue to wipe your eyes.
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Old 06-05-2021, 10:10 AM   #23
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I own a 19 year old Cougar and have had no substantial issues. Some staple in the bedroom ceiling are showing as they have rusted a bit. Plastic bits on the outside have crumbled and been replaced. The carpet in the main cabin is GONE (why carpet in an RV especially in the main cabin), original pull out couch and dinette gone by choice but most all other original things are still working fine. I did replace all the electrical in the water heater several years ago as it was fried from not being shut off when the tank was empty I would guess (prior to my watch) and of course a few new sets of tires. I think my camper was likely built MUCH better than new models based on the complaints frequently heard on this forum. Oh yeah, rubber roof was torn somewhere on a tree limb and replaced by the insurance company with a lifetime warranty (transferable) for a $500 deductible.
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Old 06-05-2021, 11:07 AM   #24
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My dad had a saying that makes as much sense in this thread as in most of the situations where he said it "way back when"...

YOU CAN'T UNRING A BELL.... Complaining, 20 years after a trailer was built and put into service is about as futile as trying to push a chain to get it where you want to store it. Or, maybe that complaint is akin to trying to "unring the bell"....

What difference does it make "NOW" how "the cheapest trailer manufactured in 2002" was built? It's already "outlived its projected life" by more than double, so I'd say rather than complain, take some lessons on how to build the same kind of trailer today. I'd suggest that NONE (did I mention not one) of the "S&B homes you've built is designed to travel down the road at 70MPH, so to compare them to a 20 year old Springdale is not an "objective comparison"... You might be "better served" trying to build a better crossbow out of clay pottery or bricks and mortar.

To suggest that because different techniques are used to construct a "box that flexes" as "inferior to the techniques used to construct a "box that never flexes" is ludicrous at best and even more subjective than comparing that Springdale to any house constructed using modern technology.

Are there "deficiencies in quality and construction" ??? HELL YES... It was advertised as "the cheapest POS being built in 2002" What did you expect? Space Shuttle quality for Springdale prices? Sort of like complaining that all the bean soup is gone as you sit on the sofa, your stomach growling with every fart. Sure, your complaining about something you've used that has served the purpose for 20 years and now, after living in it for 4+ years, suddenly it's a POS because the insulation wasn't installed properly? Or you "think" that they should have overlapped the siding with the EPDM roofing membrane???? Are you making that observation based on "how you think it should be" or have you got some insight into RV assembly line processes that the engineers at Keystone (AND all the other manufacturing facilities) simply are not "smart enough to comprehend" ???? Wouldn't it be a tad bit "smarter on your part" to do some research on WHY it was built that way rather than to "rant about something you know nothing about" ????

Go shopping !!!!! Find and buy a better trailer than the "CHEAPEST" one a manufacturer builds. While you're looking, be sure to rule out EVERY trailer built with "inferior quality".... Oh, and make sure that you've built your own before you start that journey because you won't be buying anything made in the USA or in Europe that has wheels under it.
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Old 06-05-2021, 11:20 AM   #25
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Hey wiredgeorge at 19 years old you can hardly call her a cougar!
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Old 06-05-2021, 11:33 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brob View Post
Yes, I made an introductory post 4 years ago and then came back with my observation that the build quality of this substantial investment is poor. In fact it is embarrassingly poor. I noted a few improvements that would not cost the manufacturer anything more and yield a much better product for the purchaser. I AM a builder and I HAVE built dwellings on a trailer frame, which I can assure you will NEVER experience any of the issues I noted because I used proper building techniques.

If you ever tear into your Keystone RV I can guarantee you that you too will be disappointed...
Congratulations and thank you for your resume. Now can we dispence with the unrelated information and get back to reality? The reality is noo I won't be dissapointed besause I don’t have unrealistic expectations. - "'Nuff Said"
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Old 06-05-2021, 12:04 PM   #27
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I think this thread has about run its course.
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Old 06-05-2021, 03:42 PM   #28
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This is just embarrassing. Woody and I are agreed
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Old 06-05-2021, 03:58 PM   #29
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Cutting corners, built to fail.

Brob,

I have to agree that better techniques could be used when manufacturing TTs and FWs. But for many reasons, there is no motivation or incentive for the industry to do so. IMO the only thing that will change the industry is a manufacturer offering a better quality product at the same or lower price. That has not happened yet and may not in my lifetime.

My wife jokingly tells our friends and family that when we buy a TT and now our latest FW, we are just buying the parts for me to reassemble properly. But to your point, the “bones” of the units could be better, but unfortunately are not.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:20 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
My dad had a saying that makes as much sense in this thread as in most of the situations where he said it "way back when"...

YOU CAN'T UNRING A BELL.... Complaining, 20 years after a trailer was built and put into service is about as futile as trying to push a chain to get it where you want to store it. Or, maybe that complaint is akin to trying to "unring the bell"....

What difference does it make "NOW" how "the cheapest trailer manufactured in 2002" was built? It's already "outlived its projected life" by more than double, so I'd say rather than complain, take some lessons on how to build the same kind of trailer today. I'd suggest that NONE (did I mention not one) of the "S&B homes you've built is designed to travel down the road at 70MPH, so to compare them to a 20 year old Springdale is not an "objective comparison"... You might be "better served" trying to build a better crossbow out of clay pottery or bricks and mortar.

To suggest that because different techniques are used to construct a "box that flexes" as "inferior to the techniques used to construct a "box that never flexes" is ludicrous at best and even more subjective than comparing that Springdale to any house constructed using modern technology.

Are there "deficiencies in quality and construction" ??? HELL YES... It was advertised as "the cheapest POS being built in 2002" What did you expect? Space Shuttle quality for Springdale prices? Sort of like complaining that all the bean soup is gone as you sit on the sofa, your stomach growling with every fart. Sure, your complaining about something you've used that has served the purpose for 20 years and now, after living in it for 4+ years, suddenly it's a POS because the insulation wasn't installed properly? Or you "think" that they should have overlapped the siding with the EPDM roofing membrane???? Are you making that observation based on "how you think it should be" or have you got some insight into RV assembly line processes that the engineers at Keystone (AND all the other manufacturing facilities) simply are not "smart enough to comprehend" ???? Wouldn't it be a tad bit "smarter on your part" to do some research on WHY it was built that way rather than to "rant about something you know nothing about" ????

Go shopping !!!!! Find and buy a better trailer than the "CHEAPEST" one a manufacturer builds. While you're looking, be sure to rule out EVERY trailer built with "inferior quality".... Oh, and make sure that you've built your own before you start that journey because you won't be buying anything made in the USA or in Europe that has wheels under it.
WOW!! CLEARLY you people on here simply DON'T READ A POST before jumping on the bandwagon!!!!!

I'M NOT BITCHING ABOUT THE LONGEVITY OF THE TRAILER!!!!

READ THE POST, THEN COMMENT!!!!

OTHERWISE, DON'T COMMENT!!!

I HAVE built a travel trailer of sorts, that fact is in the above posts!!!

I was pointing out OBVIOUS DESIGN FLAWS and POOR QUALITY CONTROL, not complaining I only got 19 years out of a structure that originally cost $105 per square foot!!!!!

You'd think more people could read and subsequently comprehend what they just read, apparently not!

I WAS planning to post photos and talk about how I remedied the poor construction, but I'll save that for another forum where the participants seem to be able to read and follow along!

Enjoy your selves! What a wonderful experience, kind of like the quality of a Keystone camper build!
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:27 AM   #31
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Brob,

I have to agree that better techniques could be used when manufacturing TTs and FWs. But for many reasons, there is no motivation or incentive for the industry to do so. IMO the only thing that will change the industry is a manufacturer offering a better quality product at the same or lower price. That has not happened yet and may not in my lifetime.

My wife jokingly tells our friends and family that when we buy a TT and now our latest FW, we are just buying the parts for me to reassemble properly. But to your point, the “bones” of the units could be better, but unfortunately are not.

Slow, I appreciate the fact that you actually read my post prior to commenting. I wanted to post my findings and subsequently the pictures and explanation of how I rebuilt it to not fail similarly. However, I don't get the feeling it would be received and appreciated on this forum.

19 years of use didn't build it improperly. Maybe if people in forums like this constantly called out manufacturers on poor quality control, said manufacturers would be motivated to do something about it.

This thread was more a commentary on our disposable society than lamenting "I only got 19 years out of a nearly $40,000 purchase".

Thanks for reading.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:32 AM   #32
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If you're so embarrassed then why comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weldon View Post
This is just embarrassing. Woody and I are agreed
I too agree, Keystone should be embarrassed by the poor quality of their products. I would never allow something of such poor quality to be sold.

This thread has NOTHING to do with how long I have owned the trailer. It's about poor engineering and a clear lack of quality control in manufacturing; much more of a social commentary on our disposable society and how just a little bit of care could make a huge difference.

Don't be embarrassed! Speak up, maybe it will help make a difference if more voices are heard.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:34 AM   #33
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I think this thread has about run its course.
Agreed, clearly people don't bother reading before they post. Anyone thinking this post was about me complaining "I only got 19 years out of my 40K purchase" may have reading comprehension issues...
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:35 AM   #34
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Unfortunately, this is across the entire RV industry, not just Keystone.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:37 AM   #35
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Congratulations and thank you for your resume. Now can we dispence with the unrelated information and get back to reality? The reality is noo I won't be dissapointed besause I don’t have unrealistic expectations. - "'Nuff Said"
Is it unrealistic to expect a wall to be fully insulated when you are being told by the company selling you the wall that it is insulated?
The above photo is a before and after of the back wall. There was ZERO insulation in more than 25% of that one wall, every other area I've opened over the years has been the same.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:39 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Brob View Post
I too agree, Keystone should be embarrassed by the poor quality of their products. I would never allow something of such poor quality to be sold.

This thread has NOTHING to do with how long I have owned the trailer. It's about poor engineering and a clear lack of quality control in manufacturing; much more of a social commentary on our disposable society and how just a little bit of care could make a huge difference.

Don't be embarrassed! Speak up, maybe it will help make a difference if more voices are heard.
As I stated earlier in this thread, as long as the American public continues to buy RV’s of ANY brand, EVERY manufacturer will continue to build them the same way. Doesn’t matter if it’s a 10K single axle hybrid or a 1M+ motorhome.

I work on them, so I have more “insight” to how these things are put together, and the biggest thing I have seen is lighter weight materials and and less attention to detail…ALL in an attempt to MEET THE DEMANDS of the buying public, so I guess you could put the blame on the consumer.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
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Slow, I appreciate the fact that you actually read my post prior to commenting. I wanted to post my findings and subsequently the pictures and explanation of how I rebuilt it to not fail similarly. However, I don't get the feeling it would be received and appreciated on this forum.

19 years of use didn't build it improperly. Maybe if people in forums like this constantly called out manufacturers on poor quality control, said manufacturers would be motivated to do something about it.

This thread was more a commentary on our disposable society than lamenting "I only got 19 years out of a nearly $40,000 purchase".

Thanks for reading.

I am interested to see the pictures.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:56 AM   #38
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What difference does it make "NOW" how "the cheapest trailer manufactured in 2002" was built?

Where exactly did you get this was "the cheapest trailer manufactured in 2002"? You put it in quotations as of I said it; I did not... This trailer was nearly 40k when it was new...

To suggest that because different techniques are used to construct a "box that flexes" as "inferior to the techniques used to construct a "box that never flexes" is ludicrous at best and even more subjective than comparing that Springdale to any house constructed using modern technology.

So you think that placing a 300 lb A/C unit on top of a 2x2 rib supported by a header that spans 13' on one side and an 8' clear span on the other side, with BOTH headers literally 1/2 of the required thickness for said span is "constructing a box that flexes"???
Let me tell you, it's a design destined to fail. That A/C could have been moved 6 feet rearward and been supported by wall as it bounces down the road. Moving it would have actually made it cool the space more evenly and would have still been ahead of the axles, so no effect on the weight distribution.


Are there "deficiencies in quality and construction" ??? HELL YES... It was advertised as "the cheapest POS being built in 2002" What did you expect? Space Shuttle quality for Springdale prices? Sort of like complaining that all the bean soup is gone as you sit on the sofa, your stomach growling with every fart. Sure, your complaining about something you've used that has served the purpose for 20 years and now, after living in it for 4+ years, I didn't live in it for 4+ years... this is clearly stated above in the post...clearly you didn't read it...suddenly it's a POS because the insulation wasn't installed properly? It wasn't installed PERIOD!!! Or you "think" that they should have overlapped the siding with the EPDM roofing membrane???? Are you making that observation based on "how you think it should be" or have you got some insight into RV assembly line processes that the engineers at Keystone (AND all the other manufacturing facilities) simply are not "smart enough to comprehend" ???? I'M A BUILDER WITH AN ENGINEERING BACKGROUND!!! yes,
I know how water moves around a structure! NONE of this thread is about water intrusion. If you'd read it prior to commenting, you'd know this!
Wouldn't it be a tad bit "smarter on your part" to do some research on WHY it was built that way rather than to "rant about something you know nothing about" ???? I know more about waterproofing a structure than you I guarantee

Go shopping !!!!! Find and buy a better trailer than the "CHEAPEST" one a manufacturer builds. While you're looking, be sure to rule out EVERY trailer built with "inferior quality".... Oh, and make sure that you've built your own before you start that journey because you won't be buying anything made in the USA or in Europe that has wheels under it.
Here again you demonstrate either an inability to comprehend what you've read OR the fact that you chose comment on something you didn't bother to read...
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Old 06-06-2021, 07:04 AM   #39
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WOW!! CLEARLY you people on here simply DON'T READ A POST before jumping on the bandwagon!!!!!

I'M NOT BITCHING ABOUT THE LONGEVITY OF THE TRAILER!!!!

READ THE POST, THEN COMMENT!!!!

OTHERWISE, DON'T COMMENT!!!

I HAVE built a travel trailer of sorts, that fact is in the above posts!!!

I was pointing out OBVIOUS DESIGN FLAWS and POOR QUALITY CONTROL, not complaining I only got 19 years out of a structure that originally cost $105 per square foot!!!!!

You'd think more people could read and subsequently comprehend what they just read, apparently not!

I WAS planning to post photos and talk about how I remedied the poor construction, but I'll save that for another forum where the participants seem to be able to read and follow along!

Enjoy your selves! What a wonderful experience, kind of like the quality of a Keystone camper build!

It would do you "worlds of good" to follow your own comments (bolded above for clarity).

First, everyone who has commented apparently DID read your posts before commenting. It's NOT that they don't comprehend what you posted, rather it's that they DO NOT AGREE with what you're saying. It's a matter of a different opinion, not a matter of not understanding what you're posting....

As for the "OBVIOUS DESIGN FLAWS" that you "discovered", almost EVERY brand of trailer with an EPDM roof membrane AND aluminum sidewalls is constructed with the EPDM tucked under the vertical siding. In other words, "IT'S NOT A DESIGN FLAW, IT'S AN INTENTIONAL STEP IN THE ASSEMBLY OF THE TRAILER".

Then, to consider that "settling of vertically hung insulation batts" over a 19 year history of vibration during towing is "quality related" rather than "physics related" ??? Read the side of any cereal box and you'll find, "Some settling will occur".... The fact that after 19 years, the insulation doesn't "fill the spaces" is not quality, it's reality.... If you consider that in the spaces where there's no insulation, the R value is now 1, it's the same R value as the adjacent window. If the "deficiency in insulation efficiency" is that big a deal, why not replace the large window "right next to that quality deficiency" with an energy efficient window ??? Isn't trying to "fix that issue" similar to installing screen doors in submarines ???

The fact that you don't understand HOW RV's are built or the process of assembly on the line does not make your opinion valid. To suggest that people who don't agree with your assessment are "somehow not intelligent enough to agree with you, well that's quite frankly an insult, but you certainly are entitled to that opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with you. Try spending a little "internet time" studying the RV assembly process and you'll learn why many of the things you "consider design flaws" are done the way they are done. They're not "design flaws" but "engineered processes that help an RV survive the rigors of towing that would completely destroy any structure built using the conventional S&B construction process.

Stick around and put on your "big boy pants", open your mind to some rational thinking and you might just learn why Keystone installed the EPDM under the aluminum siding (to improve flexibility and prevent the problematic leaks from occurring when the EPDM is installed over the siding) and what they've done in the past 20 years to improve the problems with gravity pulling spun insulation away from the upper areas of the frame construction..... It's not "design flaws and quality control issues" as much as it is "age related reality and engineering decisions to improve the assembly process". The reality that you are comparing apples to oranges and complaining that they aren't the same thing, built the same way, doesn't mean that RV's are worse because they aren't built the same way you would build a "permanent structure"...
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Old 06-06-2021, 07:11 AM   #40
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Unfortunately, this is across the entire RV industry, not just Keystone.
It's not just the RV industry unfortunately. This is indicative of the disposable society in which we live...
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