Diesel Engine Considerations?

[Trent McCain]

One other thing to conside is maint costs will be higher. Oil changes are over $100 compared to $30 for a gasser, On a 2008 and newer, eventually the DPF and catalyst will need cleaned. The fuel filter which is part of the water seperator is $80. To me, diesel is a luxury not a necessity. I'm 37 now, when I was a kid in the late 80's, everyone pulled with 460 Fords and 454 Chevrolets, gas was under a dollar and diesel was cheaper than that. It probably cost $2-2,500 for a diesel. Now diesel is higher than gasoline and it costs $7-9,000 extra for the diesel option. The only reason I have the F350, is I needed a heavy duty truck to pull our 5th wheel. I'm recently married and camped all my life, wanted to share that with my new wife and kids, so we purchased our first 5th wheel (91 Excel) and pulled with my ordered new 2008 F150 Lariat. It was ok for the few short trips, but eventually I could see upgrading 5th wheels and traveling more. I traded the 2008 with 16K mi in 2011 for this '09 F350 with 39K mi. I'm glad we did, as it handles this new to us 2008 Copper Canyon with ease, plus we have room to trade coachs again. We will probably hold on to this truck many years as it's loaded with options, in excellent condition, and I've got it accesorized just like I want it. In all honesty, I would have probably purchased this truck even if it had a V10 gas, just because I knew the history on it. One thing to also consider, atleast in our country (Kansas) is that a nice heavy duty truck is hard to find and commands good money. Most folks out here purchase a truck to use on the farm / job site to work. So they are used. I always take excellent care w/ maint records of my equipment, pickups, Kenworth trucks ect....my equipment pays my wage. I have no trouble selling trucks because of that. I can run this F350 to 150K mi and it'll look just as nice then as it does now, and still be worth fair money. The V10 wouldn't command near the resale value, but also wouldn't have the upfront costs associated with it either..

Trent

[SAD]

Diesel oil changes cost more... True...

Many quote $100 for a diesel oil change.... But my local Dodge dealer regularly runs a $69 special.

Many quote $30 for a gasser oil change... yet the quick lube place in town is consistently $49.

Diesel oil change interval is 2x to 3x as long.

My last fuel filter was $19 from the Dodge dealer.

Try and find the fuel filter in your gasser. It's integrated into the fuel pump/sending unit.

Repairs on both gasses and diesels are higher than anyone wants to pay... And I understand that diesels will likely be higher. Should also be less likely - debatable of course.

I just don't get the "higher maintenance cost" statements.

[Trent McCain]

Ok boys...here it is, went back in the file, I had the F350 in for it's yearly service in May before I left for harvest, only put about 5K mi a year on it.

To change oil and filter was $29.43 for the element, $59.70 for the oil, and $10 labor for a total of $99.13 at Ford

The fuel filters were $76.65 and labor is $43.38 for a total of $120.03

To service my wifes Windstar is $36 at Ford

I didn't dig up the reciept for the 1995 F150 with a 351, but if I remember correct it might be $45 with tax. so my original statement of $36 for a fullsize pickup is probably alittle low.

Now I admit it's far more expensive to have the dealer service my equipment over what I could do it myself. But here's the deal. I own/operate a business, and that consumes my time. I also depend on my equipment to make a living, so it's a wiser decision for me to have the dealer take care of service and maint/repairs for me. I don't have the time to mess with it. Also, They have detailed records, as do I of everything that has been performed on my equipment. Most I've purchased new. That makes it extremely easy for me to sell. "Here are the records, this truck has been serviced at this dealer since new, you are more than welcome to visit with them." I also do it from a warranty standpoint. Ford or Kenworth/Cummins can probably never deny a claim on me due to poor maintainence. If the dealer performs it....it's documented. If I change it, sure it's documented, but I'm not a mechanic. I also have a very knowledgeble service department, that can perform any updates, etc while it is in their shop. Everyone has a different opinion, but you have to decide what works best for you.

Here's a simple one: Lets assume oil changes and fuel.

I service my diesel at 5K and the gassers at 3K using my costs.

Diesel Oil change at $100 / 5,000 mi. = $.02 per mile driven.
Gas Oil change at $50 / 3,000 mi. = $.016 per mile driven.

Fuel cost. I'll use my actual mileage (which Fords are not known for great mileage) and current fuel price.

Towing

Diesel $3.95gal / 8.5mpg = $.464 per mile fuel cost.
Gas $3.45gal / 6mpg ? =$.575 per mile fuel cost.

Non-towing

Diesel $3.95gal /15.5mpg = $.254 per mile fuel cost.
Gas $3.45gal / 13mpg ? =$.265.

I had to guess on the gas mileage as I don't currently operate ne in the F250-350 class. We do have several mid 90's F250s on the farm that we use for daily drivers and they can achieve 11-12 empty and most anyone I've talked to claims around 13 empty with a V10 Ford. So if you pull alot of miles in a year then with these numbers it might start to pay back in several years time. But my scenerio didn't account for increased interest (if financed) and higher property tax (based on market value) if you stae collects it. (Kansas does) It also doesn't account for recouping a higher percentage of purchase price when you sell it. Old school Powerstrokes and Cummins command a premium, they practically will give a 460 Ford away now. Now of course if your mileages are different or there is less spread between fuel prices, then that will make a huge difference. I still will argue that we buy them to to a job, and it's a luxury to have it....I sure don't run enough miles in a year to justify it over a gasser, other than I wanted it.

Trent

[Hansel]

Originally Posted by Javi

DEF isn't really a pain... you only need to add it every 5K to 7K and it is available at the pump in most truck stops or even wally world in 2 1/2 gal containers..

I know, but these new exhaust systems I know with the Fords have caused some engine issue's. For me it's just too much stuff interferring with the flow of the exhaust for my taste. As far as the upkeep of a diesel oil,fuel,coolant,etc... if you have some mechanical knowledge and can turn a wrench, you can save yourself some money by doing them yourself, my last fuel filter was $26 changed it myself, oil changed was around $55, so I'm saving some money and taking pride in keeping my diesel running strong for over 248,000 miles

[Trent McCain]

Dad hasn't had an issue with his 2011 Ford, but I have had several with my Cummins powered '09 and '10 Kenworths. Thankfully warranty covers it. Haven't had any issues with the engines themselves, just the emissions equip.....DPF's catalysts, turbo actuator, ERG coolers.

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[Trent McCain]

At this rate by the time my F350 makes 250K I'll be in the nursing home! Lol! I did run my old '85 F150 with a 351HO to 225K. My grandparents purchased it new, we completely restored the body in '94 including a new box and and I drove it through college and many years after until it finally rusted to pieces again! Took a couple engines though.

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[SAD]

To throw another wazoo into the mix... My local Ford dealer does gas engine oil changes for...... $9.95!! Any make/model.

They do both my Lexus and my Mazda. Zoom zoom zoom.

[Jim W]

Can I get in on this too?

I have a 2008 6.7L Cummins 6 spd auto/3:73 4X4 Mega Cab truck weight is a little under 9K GVW. I do very little highway driving without the 5er attached; we do some country driving at an average speed of 45 MPH with stop and go signs on the roads. My data is for 6 years of usage.

I used 5,070 gallons of diesel in my truck in 66,793 miles at a cost of $17,611.00; this will provide a yearly average of 13.17 mpg. So my costs are $0.26 cents per mile driven for fuel. The way I did this is $17,611/5,070=$3.47/gallon (average) $3.47PG/13.17MPG= $0.26 mile. My fuel filter cost is $39 (average) (5um filter); replaced every 10K miles. The filter prices ranged from $21 to $51 over the 6 years of ownership so far the total cost was $234 for six filters.

Now my truck use 3 gallons of Shell Rotella T oil at $12.99/gallon and one Fleetguard oil filter at $15.36; these were bought in Jun 2013, last oil change. So my oil change cost is $54.33, this price includes tax and shipping cost of bulk purchase of filters. Oil changes are every 5,000 miles, manufacture recommendations are every 7,500 miles. I do purchase all my filters in bulk usually six at a time of oil and 3 filters for fuel; this spreads out the cost of shipping and taxes.

These costs are cheaper than a dealer would charge but I will not go to a dealer for maintenance work on my truck.

Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Jim you keep records on your pickup like I do for my trucks. I can tell you what I paid for fuel, gross rate per mile, net after fuel per mile, per week, and YTD for the last 8+ years. Kinda interesting to look back and see where things were.

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[Jim W]

Trent;
I also have the same type of data on my wife's Jetta TDI. I do this in order to see if a problem is developing with the engine or fuel system. Especially on a diesel engine if the fuel usage goes up real quick than there may be an injector issue or leakage at the CP3 pump.

I track all my maintenance cost; tires, all filters and lubricants for the truck and Jetta, also any attachments added to the truck or car. So far the cost of ownership for the Ram since new is a $1.00 per mile and the Jetta is $0.62 per mile.

Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Have you noticed poorer fuel mileage the last couple years? I've noticed my fleet ave with 4-5 trucks running full time is around .2 mpg less than a couple years ago. I ordered a new KW in '09. My first year I averaged 6.2, last year I averaged 6. Now with a friend driving since Jan its down to 5.85 YTD. He pushes it harder than I do. Truck now has 395k and I would assume it should get better as it gets broke in. I think some is quality of fuel as our routes are consistent.

Trent

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[gwvwadc]

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

[Trent McCain]

You're good to go in with an open mind. I prefer Ford products, but I also like the new offerings from General Motors and Chrysler. Being in business I personally find it hard to support companies that accepted bailout money. You didn't see Ford or Toyota take any. But that's besides the point. I'll get over it someday! LOL! In my opinion a good dealer is invaluable regardless of brand. In my small town the Ford dealer is excellent and takes very good care of our family....that's important to me. We do have a Chrysler dealer as well, but I'm not familiar with their operation. You can have trouble with anything mechanical, even my Fords! As for the Toys, my brother is a Dr and doesn't have a need for a "truck", he bought a Tacoma new in 2002 and in his words "will drive it till it drops"....he's still driving it with well over 100K on it! Several other friends run 'em and are very satisfied...seem pretty indestructable. Best of luck in whichever brand you choose.

Trent

[Hansel]

Originally Posted by gwvwadc

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

If your going too buy used, don't hesitate too crawl all under and over the truck with a flashlight and a fine tooth comb. IMHO all the diesel enigines are solid it's the transmission and other parts that would be my most concern. But it sounds like your in the right mind set, and good luck finding a truck.

[GMcKenzie]

If you have any interest in GM and are not buying new, I would avoid anything up to 2006. The 2006-2007 LBZ seems to be the best engine while avoiding the extra pollution control stuff.

The 2001 - 2004.5 (LB7) have injector issues that are a pain in the butt (guess what I have). The 2004.5-2005 (LLY) have cooling issues.

I like my truck but would love to upgrade. Would only go GM but that's me.

[DieselMatt]

Originally Posted by gwvwadc

Thanks for all the responses about costs and maintenance. While it appears that costs may be more, it also appears that I may get better performance and mileage.

While I would LOVE to be able to afford a brand new truck, it is simply NOT in the picture. I'm going to have to rely on my knowledge and vehicle background checks to find a good used truck (I know background checks don't always show everything, but they are a place to start).

Thanks especially for the advice to test each brand - I currently don't have a particular one in mind. I understand if you drive a particular brand, you may be more loyal to that one than a competitor (I feel the same about my Toyota), but I plan to be objective when looking.

Anyway - thanks again!

IF you end up looking at the 6.0L Ford there are some VERY well known issues with these engines that can easily be fixed and save you thousands in repair costs. I would be more than happy to point in the right direction as I have a 6.0 and have dealt with these issues. Just send me a PM if you go this route.

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by Trent McCain

Have you noticed poorer fuel mileage the last couple years? I've noticed my fleet ave with 4-5 trucks running full time is around .2 mpg less than a couple years ago. I ordered a new KW in '09. My first year I averaged 6.2, last year I averaged 6. Now with a friend driving since Jan its down to 5.85 YTD. He pushes it harder than I do. Truck now has 395k and I would assume it should get better as it gets broke in. I think some is quality of fuel as our routes are consistent.

Trent

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Trent;
Yes in the last two years my mileage has dropped off somewhat almost a mile per gallon. My feelings are that the diesel fuel is not #2 straight diesel anymore. Most states have either mandated thru laws or tax incentives such as IL. Since Bio-diesel has less BTU’s in it the work that the diesel engine can do is less so there is a drop off in mileage not much but some. Of course the fuel savings by using Bio is not there in some case since the road tax on diesel is higher in most states.
Jim W.

[Trent McCain]

Thanks Jim, Atleast my figures aren't decieving me then.