Weak battery

[SummitPond]

I have an Exide 24MDCST deep cycle battery that has been in service about 2.5 years. We extended and retracted the slide a week ago without issues, and all lights worked OK at that time. I was out in the trailer yesterday and the lights wouldn't come on. I checked the battery voltage on the display panel; it read 2/3 (flickering).

The battery had boiled off about 1/2 gallon of water in (I'm guessing) the past week. I topped it off and gave the trailer's built-in charger a chance to do its job. This morning there was no improvement, so I disconnected the battery from the trailer and used an external unit to recharge it (with a charger designed to handle deep cycle batteries). All seems well for the moment. I will keep my eye on it (it is parked and we're not using it at present).

I don't know if this is related to my other issue with flickering lights (see post http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...732#post240732, which I am also still monitoring) or it's something different. The LP detector also is acting strangely; the red light is flashing, yet there's no LP on (and sometimes it goes solid green indicating everything is OK).

Questions:

• Does anyone have a thought on what would cause a battery to boil off so much water so quickly?
• Has the battery been irreparably damaged?
• How long do deep cycle batteries typically last?
• Is the fact that the built-in charger didn't top off the battery an indication there is a problem with that unit?

Thanks in advance for your insight and knowledge.

[NorskeBob]

My 2 cents worth:
Does anyone have a thought on what would cause a battery to boil off so much water so quickly?
Charging current/voltage is too high. I usually only have to add about 3 to 4 oz of distilled water per cell each year. A half-gallon for one battery would be allot to have to make up for battery use – discharging and charging.
Battery electrolyte levels should be just below the bottom of the vent well, about ½ - ¾ inch above the tops of the separators. One should not allow the electrolyte level to drop below the top of the plates.


Has the battery been irreparably damaged?
If the battery was “boiled” dry – top of the battery cells uncovered. I would replace it.


How long do deep cycle batteries typically last?
My last RV – original ones were in it when I traded it – Nov. 2011 to April 2017. They were still performing well.


Is the fact that the built-in charger didn't top off the battery an indication there is a problem with that unit?
There could be a problem with the converter – charging the battery more than needed. This can cause the abnormal water loss.

Here is some good info on RV batteries:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html

[Canonman]

We also had/have a problem with flickering lights. Slightly different symptoms. Only happens when using shore power. Two issues contributing to this. One (this one you might want to check),all the neutral wires in the WFCO converter were loose. Including the main. Nearly burnt the house down before we discovered the problem. Check the connections both hot and neutral in the power distribution box and B SURE to disconnect from both shore power and barreries when you do.
Two, the WFCO engineers confirmed their converter is a 3 stage unit. They have been working with some of the LED lighting company's engineers because the LED's don't like the voltage changes when the converter changes from 14v (charging) to to around 12.8v (maintenance).
Our batteries show about a 2/3 discharge after about a week to 10 days but do recharge in about a day. The water does boil off during the recharge cycle.
I fill enough to cover the plates only, and recharge. After charging I finish filling each cell.
Battery charging from about 1/2 charge usually takes us about 2 hours using the in house converter. Again you can check the output voltage of the WFCO with a standard digital volt/ohm meter.

Checking the battery is fairly simple. You can pull the battery and take it down to the local auto parts store and they will test it free of charge.
Or, you can read the voltage from the battery. If you read around 11.5v you have a shorted cell and need to replace the battery.

State of Charge
12V 6V
100 1.265 12.7 6.3
75% 1.225 12.4 6.2
50% 1.190 12.2 6.1
25% 1.155 12.0 6.0
Dis 1.120 11.9 6.0 (Discharged)

Hope this helps

[sourdough]

First, I would check the charger. It might have gone bad but I'm a little skeptical.

Your Exide is 2.5 years old. My trailer came with an Exide battery when new. Before I took it I had them add a 2nd battery, a Camco. The 2nd year my lights started flickering and the batteries didn't stay charged long. I filled them and checked 2 weeks later (it was in storage but on shore power). The Exide took what seemed like a 1/2 gallon of water. Filled again and waited 2 weeks. The water was gone again and the bottom of the battery was bulged out. The Camco never used any water to speak of after the initial filling. Replaced both batteries with new Interstate batteries and no more flickering lights (also put in LED 12/28vdc lights). My slide motors don't groan like they used to either. I'm thinking the Exide may be bad.

[dcg9381]

[*]Does anyone have a thought on what would cause a battery to boil off so much water so quickly?

On a Jayco I had, it was definitely the charge controller. It was a "dumb" controller that would hard charge and hold at 14.7v. Bad to keep it plugged in all the time.
[*]Has the battery been irreparably damaged?

It sounds like it. Autozone tests for free if you want to be sure.

[*]How long do deep cycle batteries typically last?

There may be some discussion of deep cycle and true marine deep cycle, but I get 4+ years out of a well maintained battery that isn't over charged or discharged.

[*]Is the fact that the built-in charger didn't top off the battery an indication there is a problem with that unit?

Not necessarily a problem, but maybe that it's just a lower cost "dumb" charging unit. To figure it out, either determine what charge controller you have or put a volt meter on it with the new battery and observe how it charges.. Maybe both. On the Jayco I had, there was a simple "plug in" module that made it a smart charger.

[Racebug]

if the plates in the battery short out against each other, or plates "shedding" over time will cause the plates to short out as well resulting in the battery cooking itself to death. we have a 1500 lbs battery in our freezer forklift that cooked itself this spring. after sitting for 7 hours in the -10F degree freezer, it was still too hot to touch. Can you smell it cooking?

[SummitPond]

Thank you all for your thoughts; I have a lot to investigate. I'll post back with some #s later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SummitPond]

This is what I've fount out:

• After filling and charging the battery with an external charger, verifying good voltage on the battery, and then hooking back up to trailer with it plugged into shore power, it is down to 8 volts after 3 days.
• Water levels in the battery are OK, but asymmetric (higher on one side than the other).
• The fuses that govern charger in converter (WFCO 8955) are AOK.
• The voltage from the converter where it hooks up to the battery (with it disconnected from the battery) is between 0.6 V and 0.02 V.
• With the battery fully disconnected, the lights (which are predominantly LED) and other 12 V appliances (e.g., control panel, stereo) in the trailer no longer function; I am plugged into shore power, and it reads 120 V on the Progressive Industries EMS display.

Does it sound like there's an issue with the WFCO unit?

There's a number to call in the manual (page 5:"If the converter fuses and AC voltage are good, but the converter output still reads zero volts, the converter is not functioning properly. Contact Arterra Distribution Tech Support at (877) 294-8997.")

Has anyone contacted them before, and if so were they helpful?

Thanks.

[notanlines]

Yes, I did contact them last October. It only took a minute for them to tell me that I had a "new boat anchor." $400 later and a little time on Amazon and I had a new converter. I wish I had better news for you. If you have no output from the converter then you're dead in the water. That means you can throw your anchor in the water.....

[zuley]

Something for those of us using a dual battery set up is... The batteries are only as good as your weakest battery. That if one battery is bad your whole system is pooched. Before switching to the 6 volts a couple of years back while dry camping we were only getting one day between charging with the gen set. Was able to isolate and cut loose the bad battery and then ran with a single battery set up getting 2-3 days between charges for the balance of our vacation.

[B-O-B'03]

Originally Posted by ShacterShack

...
There's a number to call in the manual (page 5:"If the converter fuses and AC voltage are good, but the converter output still reads zero volts, the converter is not functioning properly. Contact Arterra Distribution Tech Support at (877) 294-8997.")

Has anyone contacted them before, and if so were they helpful?

Thanks.

I dealt with them at the start of the season.

In checking things, getting ready for the season, I discovered my WFCO was bad and they replaced MBD for it for free, even though I was a few weeks past the 2 year warranty.

Give them a call, it can't hurt, especially if you are close to the 2 year window.

BTW, I purchased a progressive Dynamics MBD replacement for the WFCO load center and sold the new MBD that WFCO sent me to offset the cost.

I also upgraded to 2 X 6volt GC batteries while I was at it.

Let me know if you have any questions.

-Brian

[SummitPond]

After browsing around the WFCO site and other hits found with Google, I've decided to pull the converter and look to see if there's something obviously wrong (e.g., bad solder, bad component) before taking it in to a repair facility. We have an extended warranty with Good Sam, but of course there's a deductible (the closest CW is about a 2 hour drive from here, but there are other private facilities within 10 miles).

Shore power has been disconnected.

I've been able to detach the neutral and ground without any difficulty. The hot wire, on the other hand, is connected to a circuit breaker (Siemens) and I do not know how to free it from its panel. I've attached photos.

The photo with the single red arrow shows a side-view of the breakers; this is the breaker that the WFCO is connected to. The red arrow in the other photo points to a screwed-in bracket I assume must be removed to free the breakers. The yellow arrow points to the breaker in question that must be removed. Note the breakers seem to be paired, so the first two are a single set, etc.

How do I release the breakers so I can free the hot lead?

Thank you. And a happy holiday weekend to all.

[chuckster57]

The hot lead should be held into the breaker with a screw. I've seen flathead and robertshead (square #2) screws. Breaker should be hooked under a bar at the screw end and pressed onto a bar at the switch end.

[SummitPond]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

... Breaker should be hooked under a bar at the screw end and pressed onto a bar at the switch end.

Chuckster

That did it. Thank you. Nothing is obviously wrong; nothing smells funny. I note there is a fuse (not replaceable, not easily at least) on the board. It's solid white so you can't see if the fuse is popped, although I suspect if it was the surface would be discolored. There is continuity through it, but I don't know if something might loop around and make it appear so, thus I'll check and see if there's voltage on both sides of it.

What are the odds that, as the WFCO went south, it took something else out with it (e.g. the control board for the fridge, which was operating at the time as we had lost power in the house and it was cooling down in reserve for a backup). Do you think the service center will check other 12V devices on their own, or will I have to ask them to do this?

Thanks again.

[chuckster57]

I have learned when it comes to RV electrics, anything is possible. Odds are if the converter took a dump, it would depend on HOW it failed. If the voltage just dropped off then I don't see it taking anything 12V out in the trailer. I would think that if it lost any type of regulator then the fuses to any 12V appliance would probably blow.

If it were me, I would test everything myself. Turn the fridge on, if the light lights then run it on AC for about 20 minutes. If the flue is warm then switch it to LP. If it lights, odds are it's ok. Other control board would be the furnace. Start it and if it lights, it's probably ok too. Since I figure you weren't making hot water, that stuff is ok.

Hope this helps, any more questions feel free to ask.

[SummitPond]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

... If it were me, I would test everything myself. ...

I will double-check everything once I get it back from the service center. Now to manage to get it there! Not much around here, and I'm not sure how booked they are.

Thanks again.

Happy Holiday!

[SummitPond]

Just a quick update ...

Powered system back up to take voltage across fuse on board to see if it was good. I must have shaken something loose - fireworks on July 5! Looks as if a resistor fried. So it's a definite trip to the service department. Awaiting a call back to see when they can take the trailer in.

Again, thanks all for your comments and advice.

[Bob Landry]

You can save a lot of 12V troubleshooting time if you understand that when plugged into shore power, the battery, or if you even have one, is irrelevant. All of your 12V power comes from the converter.

[SummitPond]

Update:

Got RV back from Seacoast RV in Saco, ME. They replaced the entire WFCO unit. I opted to upgrade to a class 27 (from a class 24) battery as the old one was kaput and they were the same price. Also got a new battery box for the larger battery at Seacoast ($11). I have related my experience in another post (http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ad.php?t=29613). It was a very pleasant experience overall.

[chuckster57]

Glad to hear it's all taken care of. Now go out and use it!!