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Old 08-28-2015, 07:01 PM   #1
HammerToe
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Running Light Problem or NOT???

I own a 2008 Keystone Cougar Model 291RLS – a 30 footer with two (bedroom and main) slideouts.

Recently. I tried a ’trick’ I had read about in some or other orum discussion that one could ‘turn on’ ALL? (I assumed ‘ALL’) a trailer’s running lights by ‘jumping’ PINS 4+5 on the rigs ‘trailer to tow vehicle’ connector used to power all these lights, brake lights and turn signals, etc.

I tried it, using a 5 amp fuse, and It Worked! Neat! Probably wouldn’t want to do it if one was dry camping or was not on ‘Shore Line Power’ for obvious reasons BUT, might come in handy some time to know the trick.

Anyway, not long ago I decided to order some suitable LED ‘bulbs’ to replace all my trailer’s incandescent running light bulbs so I ‘did the trick’’ to cause the trailers running lights to light up so that I could get the ‘polarity-sensitive’ LED bulbs inserted properly,

In the process of doing these replacements, I noticed something:

MY 5th has a total of THIRTEEN external running (or ‘clearnace’, if you prefer) lights: FIVE on the rear of the trailer up near the roof (ALL RED; ALL the rest are AMBER); TWO AMBER up near the roof on the trailer’s ‘nose cap’, and THREE MORE AMBER on EACH SIDE of the trailer – ‘front’, middle, and ‘rear’.

In the process of replacing the stock bulbs with LEDs, everything went fine with respect to (a) all five rear red ones, and (b) both the FRONT AND REAR SIDE AMBER ONES.

However, when I tried to replace (FIRST) the MIDDLE RHS AMBER Fixture’s bulb, I could NOT get the LED to work regardless of orientation!

Hmmm. Got out a Multimeter and checked – NO 12 volts, + OR –, ACROSS the terminals.

“Oh well, will come back to this one later”.

I continued to work my way around the trailer. Right-Front – O.K.. Left-Front O.K. (But – MIDDLE LEFT LIGHT ‘Fixture’ ‘bad’ exactly like ‘MIDDLE-RIGHT’. HMMMM!!! Something’s funny hear.

Finished off at LEFT-REAR (O.K.) and then seemed to notice something ELSE (since confirmed) that BOTH AMBER ‘FRONT CROWN/CAP’ Lights were ALSO not lit (‘STILL’; EVEN with the incandescent bulbs still in them!).

So far, still haven’t gone up there – maybe tomorrow – to check these BULBS AND SOCKETS - *BUT* “hard to believe” that BOTH these (fixures) bulbs are bad so I suspect something…

Like, maybe a COMMON POWER (WIRE) Supply or ‘GROUND’ problem?

If *I* were wiring up a (large number of) trailer clearance lights, I wouldn’t wire them ALL up (in parallel) together but would ‘segment them’ into at least 2 (in my case) or even 3 parts, with each subset of bulbs being wired up ‘in parallel’ sharing BOTH a POWER and GROUND line/wire.

Maybe? that’s it??? And there’s problem with one or the other of these two wires? If true’, ‘that’ would explain it.

Well, earlier today I decided to see if I might be able to, if not PINPOINT, then at least NARROW DOWN the possibility of where the problem might lie.

I FIGURED that since NEITHER the middle RHS or LHS would display a 12 volt differential with ‘The Fuse’ inserted AND all the other lights were working, maybe I could test to see if ‘The Problem’ lay with a ‘broken common power line’ OR ‘broken (common) ground (again, assuming ‘wiring’ and ‘sharing’ as above) SO:

FIRST, I ran a Long Test Lead STRAIGHT Back To ‘NEGATIVE’ on the main battery. THEN, with The Fuse installed and using a Multimeter, I checked for +12 volts FROM EITHER of the TWO LHS AND RHS FIXTURE TERMINALS to the DIRECT GROUND (The Long Test Lead).

RESULT – NO 12 volt differential FROM EITHER (receptacle) terminal to ‘DIRECT GROUND’ so it appears that 12v is NOT ‘getting to (one of) the socket’s terminals.

O.K., so, now let’s try connecting the Long Test Lead to the Main Battery’s POSITIVE TERMINAL and then check for a 12 volt differential to Ground (through the MM) again through EITHER OF the sockets two terminals.

Results: Nothing!!!

Now maybe I missed something. Maybe I’m completely ‘off base’ here, but this seems ‘weird’. (

I should mention that I also conducted these identical tests using the WORKING LHS FRONT AMBER SOCKET and DID GET in all cases, the results expected, BUT:

It seems we’ve got here a case where NEITHER TERMINAL/WIRE ‘goes to’/’sees’ EITHER ‘+12’ OR ‘Ground’ i.e. no continuity through either wire ‘back to’ where it ‘should be’.

This is leading me to believe that MAYBE I’m ‘completely missing something’.

MAYBE the Four Lights In Question ‘CANNOT be Tricked’ into coming on with the ‘Jumper Trick’.

MAYBE??? they only EVER ‘Light’ under ‘different conditions’ such as (possibly) (a) the TV much be hooked up AND other connections in the plug are made and/or (b) maybe the TV’s Headlights (not just ‘Running’) must actually be on OR (c) maybe these FOUR Lights only work as SIDE/FRONT ‘TURN SIGNAL’ indicators, similar to the RED REAR AND REAR-SIDE and AMBER FRONT AND FRONT-SIDE bulbs/lights on Automobiles?

Anyone got any ideas? Suggestions?

Thanks
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:21 PM   #2
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Those light should light up with the running lights. There is a junction box that the 7 pin chord goes into that should be mounted on the frame of the trailer in the v section where the batteries and propane are at. Pull the cover off and see if all the wires and grounds are still connected.

That or both those lights wiring is damaged under the trailer somewhere.


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Old 08-29-2015, 02:42 AM   #3
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Is it possible that these are "Mid-ship" turn signals? Hook up to your TV and check it that way.

Good luck,
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Old 08-29-2015, 03:50 AM   #4
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Do the middle fixtures in question light up properly with incandescent bulbs in them along with the other marker lights?
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Old 08-29-2015, 03:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TandE View Post
Those light should light up with the running lights. There is a junction box that the 7 pin chord goes into that should be mounted on the frame of the trailer in the v section where the batteries and propane are at. Pull the cover off and see if all the wires and grounds are still connected.

That or both those lights wiring is damaged under the trailer somewhere.


Travis
The junction box on the A-frame or pin box usually has a single wire for the marker lights connected to the pigtail. It generally doesn't split until further into the trailer. If some of the markers light up, I think I'd look elsewhere for a bad connection first.
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Old 08-29-2015, 04:11 AM   #6
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Thanks for the suggestions, TandE and Pull Toy and Steve7010.

Pull Toy: I SEEM to recall having done this (TV Hookup test) in the past. This problem has been dragging on for some months now and it's just that I recently decided to 'get serious' and try to debug it, but if I recall correctly, 'they still didn't work' in ANY fashion that I tried.

So far, I've 'ignored' the Front Cap lights, as they are 'high up there' and one could fall off a ladder and... PLUS I thought that if I could diagnose the problem and resolve it through/using the side lights, the Front Cap light problem might 'solve itself'.

TandE and Steve7010: Thanks for your suggestions also.

In my efforts, I DID discover the junction box you refer to on my 5th. In my case, it is located, upside down, on the underside of the front of the trailer, just behind the back end of the hitch.

I did pull the cover and had a quick look. Everything SEEMED? to look fine in there, pretty much. No sign of 'havoc', anything unusual.

I DID notice in that box one wire - heavy (likely 10 gauge) YELLOW - coming in from the plug harness - that was NOT CONNECTED TO ANYTHING. However, (a) the END of this wire had been 'CUT CLEAN' with wire cutters and (b) a CAREFUL inspection of ALL the twist connectors in that box, ALL wires leading out, did not suggest that anything was amiss, 'had failed', that this wire SHOULD go anywhere.

My theory is that RV manufacturers purchase and use 'standard' 7 conductor female plug assemblies for TV hookup and then (maybe?) just do not use ONE of the input wires? I'm gonna chase that 'cut yellow' back to the other end - the 7 pins on the RV-TV plug. I suspect its purpose is to power Backup Lights (which I don't have).

Steve7010: To answer your question: No, even WITH the standard incandescent bulbs installed, they do not light up. I decided to leave them in until the problem is resolved as the LEDs are 'Polarity Sensitive' and I haven't been able to figure the correct orientation as things stand.

I agree: I strongly suspect The Problem is likely somewhere else, 'downstream'.

It's just that, as I said, the things I find 'interesting' are:

(a) why FOUR lights in total? (How are the R.L.s WIRED UP, anyway? Gawd I wish for schematics).

(b) 'why the SYMMETRY' and

(c) why, using a multimeter to check for 'continuity' in various ways did NOT yield ANY indication of EITHER a 'Path to Power' *OR* a 'Path to Ground' for BOTH OF the two (MIDDLE LHS and RHS) lights I tested, UNLIKE OTHER RUNNING LIGHTS on the trailer, 8' feet away (FRONT LHS and FRONT RHS)?

BOTH 'No Power/PATH" *AND* 'No Ground/PATH' *detectable* at (at least) TWO (of these FOUR problem) fixtures in this observable symmetry seems too much of a coincidence for my liking.

This coming Monday - August 31st - I have an appointment to take my 5th in to a dealer for some work I want done that will require dropping, at least partially, the underbelly 'pan'. Among other things, I've decided to get a set of 'Horst Miracle Probes' installed in my Black Water, Grey Water and Galley Water tanks to try and fix (Guess!)... (I like things to WORK). I also want them to 'run' some two conductor power/video cable I purchased for a Wired Rear View camera, etc. and that's why I finally decided to get serious about this problem, figuring if I can't solve it by Sunday night, I'll 'turn it over to them' to resolve.

Just thought I might be able to save some $.$$...

Thanks again for your suggestions.
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Old 08-29-2015, 04:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerToe View Post
In my efforts, I DID discover the junction box you refer to on my 5th. In my case, it is located, upside down, on the underside of the front of the trailer, just behind the back end of the hitch.

I did pull the cover and had a quick look. Everything SEEMED? to look fine in there, pretty much. No sign of 'havoc', anything unusual.

I DID notice in that box one wire - heavy (likely 10 gauge) YELLOW - coming in from the plug harness - that was NOT CONNECTED TO ANYTHING. However, (a) the END of this wire had been 'CUT CLEAN' with wire cutters and (b) a CAREFUL inspection of ALL the twist connectors in that box, ALL wires leading out, did not suggest that anything was amiss, 'had failed', that this wire SHOULD go anywhere.

My theory is that RV manufacturers purchase and use 'standard' 7 conductor female plug assemblies for TV hookup and then (maybe?) just do not use ONE of the input wires? I'm gonna chase that 'cut yellow' back to the other end - the 7 pins on the RV-TV plug. I suspect its purpose is to power Backup Lights (which I don't have).
That is normal and expected. The yellow is the center pin on the 7-pin and is for backup lights. Your trailer doesn't have them so the wire doesn't go anywhere. Yes, it's the same pigtail that all the manufacturers use. Most newer trucks with trailer tow wiring packages come with that pin enabled now so if you wanted to add backup lights it would be a simple matter of running the yellow wire to the back of the trailer and installing a pair of lights. I am just finishing this up on my 2011 Cougar. The pin was already functional on my F250.
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Old 08-29-2015, 09:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC7010 View Post
The junction box on the A-frame or pin box usually has a single wire for the marker lights connected to the pigtail. It generally doesn't split until further into the trailer. If some of the markers light up, I think I'd look elsewhere for a bad connection first.

Generally yes but this is keystone we are talking about here. Had a similar problem on my last trailer where marker lights and the slide outs were not working unless hooked up to the truck or shore power. Sure enough in that box just about every ground for the lights and slide outs went to one ground stud which had broken.


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Old 08-29-2015, 02:41 PM   #9
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ATTENTION TandE:

Thanks for continuing to ‘stay involved’ and participate in this thread.
Your very last post at 12:18 today (August 29th) is ***EXTEREMELY INTERESTING AND POTENTIALLY RELEVANT TO ME***.

Why?
Because while I did NOT mention it here IN THIS ‘Running Light Problem’ thread, I am, ‘as we speak’, SIMULTANEOUSLY HAVING A PROBLEM WITH MY BEDROOM SLIDEOUT.

Back in late May, all hooked up and just about ready to leave for 3 weeks camping, one of the very last things I had to do before getting on the road was ‘close up my slides’. As per my habit, I ‘did’ the bedroom slide FIRST. It seemed to ‘come in’ normally BUT, at the very end of its travel, it did not ‘sound right’ – no ‘ratchet clicks’ from the clutch.

I checked outside – it was completely closed. But, I was concerned, so I went back inside and tried to OPEN IT AGAIN. NO LUCK.

Since that time (late May) my bedroom slide has been inoperative, in that it will NOT RESPOND to the switch by the entrance door, in or out.

The slide motor is fine. (I ‘opened up the bed’ to check) and ‘jumpered it’ (see below).

In the end, I managed to get away and ‘do’ my 3 weeks by adding two 12 gauge wires to the ‘twist connects’ where the wires (FROM the switch, one way or the other) connect up at the motor, running them out under the edge of the bed, and (since then), using a small 12 volt AGM battery (typically used in UPSes (Uninterruptable Power Supplies)) to power the slide using simple, homemade, ‘jumpers’.

Works like a charm.

My investigation to date has revealed that ‘everything appears fine’ UP TO the (B.R. slide) switch. I ‘have’ +12 volts between ‘the RED’ at the switch and ‘the (2) BLACKS’.

Also, The SWITCH seems O.K. because I swapped it temporarily with the main slide switch and BOTH SWITCHES will operate the Main Slide but NEITHER will operate the bedroom slide. (The Main slide is/’works’ just fine).

I did some ‘Continuity Checks’ yesterday using some home-made up, LONG (25’) test leads and the results SEEM to indicate a problem with one of the two wires (10 gauge) that run FROM the switch TO the slideouts motor. I ‘get’ about 2.5 ohms resistance with one of the wires (the ‘YELLOW’) but ‘infinite’ with the GREEN.

(These wires both ‘change color en route’. Why and Where, I do not know, but, with the bed open, I took some pains to wrap some yellow and green (as appropriate) electrical tape around each in three places so I would ‘know’ in the future: (a) where the wires came up through the floor in the bedroom, (b) after they’d ‘passed the twist connect to the motor and (c) finally, at the end of the wires that I left hanging out from under the bed for ‘easy jumping’/operation of the slide.

I didn’t mention this bedroom slide problem here (though I have in other posts, seeking an answer) BUT *it was later in the year, after the slideout problems surfaced*. (I think it was in late June or July) when, attempting the LED upgrade, that I noticed this (apparent) problem with a subset of my running lights WITH ‘THIS INTERESTING SYMMETRY’.

This was Very Suspicious to Me!!! ‘Too coincidental’.

And (yet again), it seems VERY STRANGE to me that some tests I ran with a multimeter (can I, in any way, get 12 volts between EITHER affected Receptacle Bulb Terminals ‘directly back’ to battery ground and, if not, can I measure ‘reasonable’ (less than infinite) resistance from EITHER (said) terminal back to (a) direct ground

‘I mean’, when I ‘can’t get 12 volts on the meter’ directly from the main battery though at least one of the receptacle’s two terminals, EITHER using the ‘fuse trick’ or ‘directly’, back to the (appropriate) battery terminal(s) (+12 in this case) or ANY sign of a path to ground from ONE of them either (battery ground, in this case, that seems strange.

I strongly suspect that these two problems may be related, that there may be a common cause…

It sure would be nice to see if I could figure this out and fix it by tomorrow evening. I think it could save me considerable $.$$ next week letting The Dealer take care of it.

‘The Interesting Thing’ with the Slideout problem is that ‘those two’ (yellow and green) wires are supposed to ‘go direct’ from the switch to the motor (color, splice considerations aside). That’s why they are 10 gauge.

The fact that I do not ‘see’ < infinite resistance on ONE of the two (the green) l as made me wonder:

Could ‘that wire’ (path) be effectively ‘broken’? (Again, it’s 10 gauge; hard to imagine).

MIGHT THERE BE a ‘blown fuse’ or ‘failed breaker’ somewhere in this ‘switch to motor circuit’ that I’m not aware of? (But, WHY ‘fuse’ a 10 gauge line *IF* the 30 amp fuse at the converter panel could be counted on to handle possible shorts.

Might there ‘be’ a (bad) relay somewhere in the system?
Well, MAYBE? But (again) why use 10 gauge? UNLESS maybe that ‘10 gauge’ might reduce down to some lower gauge’ en route to the motor and THEN what comes up to the motor through the floor is (10 gauge) FROM (a possible) relay???

IT SEEMS VERY STANGE TO ME in that BOTH the main and bedroom slides ‘APPEAR’ to share a SINGLE 30 amp fuse at the converter panel. I’ve had commutations with other owners whose rigs have only a single, ‘main room’ slide and THEIR panel also use a single 30 amp fuse.

While it not likely to happen often, somebody, sooner or latest, will, if not deliberately, accidentally attempt to operate BOTH SLIDES at the same time and (likely, I think) blow that/a single fuse.

So…, I would’na dun it that way.

In closing, I cannot be sure but somehow I think that these two problems may very well have a common cause.

Any further thoughts, suggestions?
Can you provide any more details about where that common ground/broken stud was located in your case?

On my rig, there is a Big Solid Looking Ground at/into the hitch. Is that the one? (Mine/that one) looks fine.

You refer to a ‘Broken ***Stud***’…
Located precisely where, if I may ask?

Thanks.

P.S. Just thought that I should add/mention that I’m experiencing all these problems WHILE hooked up to shore power/NOT COUNTING on the main battery for anything.
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Old 08-29-2015, 07:29 PM   #10
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Sorry for the late reply. The broken stud was actually one of the bolts that held the junction box to the a frame of my last trailer. Just so happens that that one bolt was the ground point for a few things in the trailer the slide outs being one of them.




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Old 09-11-2015, 07:52 AM   #11
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'Greetings'.

This is HammerToe whose post initiated this thread.

I just thought I would 'report in' to advise all those who were kind enough to contribute suggestions regarding my 'Inoperative Bedroom Slide' and 'Running Light Problems' that the source of the problems has been located and repairs made.

I can't recall *for certain* if I mentioned in anywhere *previously* in this thread, but in my attempts to diagnose/locate the source of the problem and try to repair it on my own, I had come across signs of 'chewing' in the front storage compartment *and* left-hand-side propane tank storage compartment:

a) pieces/'flakes' of/from pieces of orange polyurethane 'pool noodle' that I use to 'jam fit' things stored there (in the front storage compartment) to keep things from moving around while being towed.

b) 'signs, to put it *very* mildly, ELLIPTICAL HOLES about 2.0-2.5" long x 1" wide (at widest)in two places in some black 'Split Flex Wire Loom' wiring protector enclosing a large bundle of wires that, at one end, went through a hole in the lower left-hand-side, back area of the front storage compartment into the underbelly of the trailer and, at the upper end, IN THE FRONT LHS PROPANE TANK AREA, into the 'chin area', and

c) even some signs of chewing - chewed through insulation - of/on wiring wires itself (though no actual breaks/chew-throughs).

At first I suspected 'mice' might be the source of my problems BUT, on further reflection, I tended to dismiss that theory for two reasons:

1. The wiring, particularly the bedroom slide wiring, was/is '10 gauge' and I was doubtful that teeny/tiny MICE could chomp through that large a gauge of wire and

2. There were *no signs of MOUSE 'droppings'*.

Now, I 'had'/experienced, 'around the house and yard', BOTH mice and squirrel infestations and (a) mice tend to poop just about anywhere without breaking stride, it seems, whereas squirrels tend to have 'more class' and do it in more discreet, invisible places.

AND, assuming that it might be squirrels, it was REALLY hard to imagine how they could have gotten 'past'/out of the front storage compartment through the small sized holes that were available/opened up by chewing, through the wire holes, etc.

So, if I didn't mention it, that's why.

Well, anyway, last week I took the trailer into a dealer to have them 'take a crack' at the problem and do some other work I wanted done (Horst Miracle Probes) and I just heard back from them first thing this morning.

Seems it WAS: SQUIRRELS.

They mentioned that they'd had to get into either or both the 'chin area'/nose (cap) to try and find the source of the problem and they told me they'd found 'CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE of SQUIRRELS' that had taken up residence 'somewhere' and chewed up a 'BUNCH' of wires.

They mentioned 'TWO SQUIRRELS' (not sure how they'd figured THAT out unless maybe 'dead'?.

I didn't ask, but also they mentioned finding Pine Cones, etc.

Well, that pretty much confirmed my suspicions, though I'm amazed that they managed to get through 'openings' 'THAT SMALL that they must have used.

(Actually though, there is ALSO a large, like 'LARGE' rectangular opening in the FRAME of the trailer in the EXTREME UPPER LHS of the LHS propane storage compartment that they 'could' have used BUT there was no sign they had and 'there was them holes' in the wire loom so why bother chewing when you've got a big 'door' available. I'm probably giving squirrels too much credit for brains...).

I STRONGLY SUSPECT, and originally suspected 'squirrels' for one other reason - that they managed to get up and into the front storage compartment via the (in this case, LHS) Propane Tank storage compartment which is COMPLETELY OPEN at the bottom.

Now APPARENTLY mice can only jump 'STRAIGHT UP/VERTICALLY' about 12", and it's probably closer to 2' jump, whereas squirrels would have NO PROBLEM making that jump.

And from there...

SO: WHEN I GET MY TRAILER BACK NEXT WEEK (MONDAY), I PLAN ON 'SCREENING OFF' THE BOTTOM OF ***BOTH*** THE LHS AND RHS PROPANE TANK HOLDING COMPARTMENTS WITH 1/4" (MESH) GALVANIZED 'HARDWARE CLOTH' - paid around $10.00 for a 3' x 6' roll at Home Depot.

This is an HD Galvanized Steel Wire Mesh which you need to cut either with wire cutters 'strand by strand' or with Heavy Duty cutters and there ain't no way squirrels are gonna get past that to do it all again.

Anyway:

I just thought I'd report in as to the CAUSE and (suggest) the Wire Hardware Cloth idea in case anyone else 'out there' might like to consider doing something similar to minimize the risk of having a similar unpleasant and probably expensive experience.

Haven't 'seen' the bill yet. Gonna have to see if i might be able to get reimbursed by/through my insurance on the trailer.

Thanks again for the contributions.
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Old 09-11-2015, 10:06 AM   #12
Ken / Claudia
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Thanks for letting us know what was happening. Sorry about that big mess. Many small animals can really cause damage. My folks had racoon's under their home that bill was just under $12,000 to fix what they destroyed.
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