Weight insight

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Safety is critical when towing an RV Trailer. This training video discusses the importance of understanding a Truck's ratings and how these ratings limit the size of the trailer that can be safely towed. You will be provided the tools and basic understanding needed to assist your endeavor to properly match a truck and trailer, so that you can enjoy RVing safely.

http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/mat...ks-to-trailers

Great video, never have seen such an in depth desertion on GCWR, which is not on the VIN or Payload sticker. One of the reasons it isn't on the either of the tags, is because it is the one weight rating you can change. One only needs to put a lower gear ratio in the differential to get a higher GCVWR. He did touch a bit on GVWR, touched a bit more on rear GAWR and how one can exceed GAWR and still be within all other numbers. I see this only can happen on the high GVWR 1/2 tons as many have a GVWR that is 95% of GAWR. The normal case is that those 1/2 ton have 300# to 400# to spare on the front axle, so they can exceed rear GAWR and still be within the TV GVWR.
He touched a bit on braking although he stated braking is important, he didn't discuss the importance of balance between the TV and trailer.
The one thing he also just touched on was sway control for a TT, but really didn't go into deeply. I feel handling is as big a safety issue as braking.
I you can't comfortably drive down a curvy road at the speed limit with your trailer in tow, and suggested speeds for curves, even if within or well within weight ratings it isn't a safe package. It is easy to go in a straight line, it is when you are running two lane state highways that handling really comes into play. I am not talking driving on the edge, it is driving through the curves that don't have suggested speeds, meaning that based on traffic studies they can be taken at the posted limit.
I would venture that more RV accidents are a result of lack of driver skill, than being over any listed weight rating. I would also venture that a larger percentage of TT are involved in accidents than 5th wheels.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by LTS0307

Dry Weight 9,731 lbs.
Payload Capacity 2,389 lbs.
GVWR 12,120 lbs.
Hitch Weight 1,720 lbs.
TV rating (the sticker weight that everyone was waiting for) 9,900 lbs.

I know that there was some question has if the hitch weight and the carrying capacity were switched. I can tell you that the above numbers are the listed weights (from Keystone)

maybe this helps clear the air a little bit. I do also want to say that it is just my wife and I and we dont have a ton to load into the trailer. Just enough to get to where we need to be, drink beer, cook smores, and laugh the night away.

Take it across the scales. Again, I'm guessing your truck should be somewhere around 7,200-7,400 lbs so you have 2,500-2,700 lbs payload available. Add you and the wife, your down to the 2,200-2,400 range (I'm just guessing), add your hitch and a few items in the bed and you're now below 2,000 lbs. I can promise you that your 1,720 dry pin weight will be closer to 2,500-3,000 lbs depending on what, how much, and where you load your gear. Now you can see what we are all saying. In the end, enough info has been provided for you to answer your own question if you take the combo across the CAT scales.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by LTS0307

Dry Weight 9,731 lbs.
Payload Capacity 2,389 lbs.
GVWR 12,120 lbs.
Hitch Weight 1,720 lbs.
TV rating (the sticker weight that everyone was waiting for) 9,900 lbs.

I know that there was some question has if the hitch weight and the carrying capacity were switched. I can tell you that the above numbers are the listed weights (from Keystone)

maybe this helps clear the air a little bit. I do also want to say that it is just my wife and I and we dont have a ton to load into the trailer. Just enough to get to where we need to be, drink beer, cook smores, and laugh the night away.

Depending on what your TV currently weighs, with the 9,900# GVWR you could be close. Likely about 1,200# of stuff if 50% went on the pin that would be about 2,400# on the pin.
Hope you take a trip to the scales this weekend.

[Bolo4u]

Here’s where some of the confusion comes in, thanks to manufacturers, and regulations.

TV and specs directly from the manufacturer:
2015 Ram 2500, Laramie, 6.7L CTD, Auto, 4x4, 3.42
GVWR: 10,000
Payload: 2,360
Base total Wt: 7,640
Front base: 4,724
Rear Base: 2,916
Front GAWR: 5,750
Rear GAWR: 6,000
GCWR: 25,300
Max trailer weight: 17,180

So in theory, based on all those specs, my truck should be engineered to safely to up to a COMBINED weight of 25300.

Now for Federal MVSS door sticker twist:

GVWR: 10,000
Front GAWR**: 6000 (**with the stock LT285/60R20 tires on 20x8 rim @ 65 psi)
Rear GAWR**: 6500 (**with the stock LT285/60R20 tires on 20x8 rim @ 80 psi)

Then the manufacturer door sticker:

Same tire info as above
Payload**: 2052 (** due to the options as built)

Specs for the 5r seem to vary, depending on which website (manufacturer vs. dealer vs. generic RV guide from the manufacturer), so Ill go with the sticker info:
2016 Keystone Cougar 333MKS
GVWR: 12350
Shipped Weight: 10,470 lbs.
Cargo Capacity: 1880 lbs.

I weighed my TV at a CAT scale, on the way to pick up my trailer, with just me and my dad (about 440 pounds total), full fuel etc., but no hitch or other cargo, and my weights were:
Front axle: 5140
Rear axle: 3260
Total: 8400

Leaving 1200 pounds before I get to my 10000 GVWR limit.

I weighed both TV (full fuel, my dad and I) and 5r (as picked up/outfitted at the dealer) at the same scale AFTER picking up the trailer and my weights were:
Front axle: 5180
Rear axle: 5540
Trailer axle: 8720
Total GCW: 19440

So my rear axle weight increased 2280 pounds. So based on an estimated 5th wheel hitch weight (combined due to a separate frame and slider hitch set in the factory puck system) of ~350, my dry pin weight is 1930, about 20 pounds below the stated dry weight, according to the manufacturer. The trailer weighed a total of 11040, giving me 1310 pounds before I get to the trailers GVWR of 12350.

The FMVSS says my truck is arbitrarily “limited” to a GVWR of 10000, for various reasons, while at the same time saying my truck can safely carry 12500 pounds (combined GAWR), and Ram says I can safely tow up to 23500 pounds combined, thus implying the trucks’ components (frame, suspension, brakes) are engineered to be safe at or below that weight when towing, although I have no intentions of ever getting anywhere near that.

Even if I had my trailer carrying the max GVWR of 12350, and my truck over the GVWR and at, say 11000 pounds (over the GVWR but less than the axle ratings), for a total of 23350, I’m still 1950 pounds below the GCWR of 25300, which is well within the safe towing limits of the truck.

Granted this is all theory, but using their numbers, it seems we get “cheated” of available towing capacity due to the arbitrary 10000 regulation limit. Also, in speaking to a law enforcement officer who deals with commercial weight enforcement, in California at least, for passenger towing situations, the enforcement comes into play when exceeding axle and tire weight ratings.

[Mover480]

The GVWR of your truck is for the truck only, by itself, not connected to a trailer. When you're connected to the 5er, you need to be under the GAWR for the truck axles and for the trailer axles, along with the total combined weight being under the GCWR. Also, don't exceed the tire ratings.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

Here’s where some of the confusion comes in, thanks to manufacturers, and regulations.

TV and specs directly from the manufacturer:
2015 Ram 2500, Laramie, 6.7L CTD, Auto, 4x4, 3.42
GVWR: 10,000
Payload: 2,360
Base total Wt: 7,640
Front base: 4,724
Rear Base: 2,916
Front GAWR: 5,750
Rear GAWR: 6,000
GCWR: 25,300
Max trailer weight: 17,180

So in theory, based on all those specs, my truck should be engineered to safely to up to a COMBINED weight of 25300.

Now for Federal MVSS door sticker twist:

GVWR: 10,000
Front GAWR**: 6000 (**with the stock LT285/60R20 tires on 20x8 rim @ 65 psi)
Rear GAWR**: 6500 (**with the stock LT285/60R20 tires on 20x8 rim @ 80 psi)

Then the manufacturer door sticker:

Same tire info as above
Payload**: 2052 (** due to the options as built)

Specs for the 5r seem to vary, depending on which website (manufacturer vs. dealer vs. generic RV guide from the manufacturer), so Ill go with the sticker info:
2016 Keystone Cougar 333MKS
GVWR: 12350
Shipped Weight: 10,470 lbs.
Cargo Capacity: 1880 lbs.

I weighed my TV at a CAT scale, on the way to pick up my trailer, with just me and my dad (about 440 pounds total), full fuel etc., but no hitch or other cargo, and my weights were:
Front axle: 5140
Rear axle: 3260
Total: 8400

Leaving 1200 pounds before I get to my 10000 GVWR limit.

I weighed both TV (full fuel, my dad and I) and 5r (as picked up/outfitted at the dealer) at the same scale AFTER picking up the trailer and my weights were:
Front axle: 5180
Rear axle: 5540
Trailer axle: 8720
Total GCW: 19440

So my rear axle weight increased 2280 pounds. So based on an estimated 5th wheel hitch weight (combined due to a separate frame and slider hitch set in the factory puck system) of ~350, my dry pin weight is 1930, about 20 pounds below the stated dry weight, according to the manufacturer. The trailer weighed a total of 11040, giving me 1310 pounds before I get to the trailers GVWR of 12350.

The FMVSS says my truck is arbitrarily “limited” to a GVWR of 10000, for various reasons, while at the same time saying my truck can safely carry 12500 pounds (combined GAWR), and Ram says I can safely tow up to 23500 pounds combined, thus implying the trucks’ components (frame, suspension, brakes) are engineered to be safe at or below that weight when towing, although I have no intentions of ever getting anywhere near that.

Even if I had my trailer carrying the max GVWR of 12350, and my truck over the GVWR and at, say 11000 pounds (over the GVWR but less than the axle ratings), for a total of 23350, I’m still 1950 pounds below the GCWR of 25300, which is well within the safe towing limits of the truck.

Granted this is all theory, but using their numbers, it seems we get “cheated” of available towing capacity due to the arbitrary 10000 regulation limit. Also, in speaking to a law enforcement officer who deals with commercial weight enforcement, in California at least, for passenger towing situations, the enforcement comes into play when exceeding axle and tire weight ratings.

I personally appreciate your in depth explanation of the sometime confusing aspects of these weights. To me it's pretty simple. Did you, I or whoever knowingly buy a truck limited to a 10k gvw? Sure. Do we know how that affects us? Sure. There is a posted payload on the sticker inside the door frame telling us the payload for a specific vehicle - in the example 2052 lbs. What does it say above it? "Combined weight of occupants and cargo should NEVER exceed 2052 lbs." It doesn't say "unless you think you disagree", "unless you find some numbers that seem to contradict" etc. It says NEVER.

I know some think those things are politics, and maybe some are, but I think they are more driven to help folks stay out of having to pay excessive rates for highly rated trucks, getting advanced types of licenses, registering commercial etc. When WE opt for that route then WE are subject to the rules we chose IMO. I'm in the same boat but my payload is 3200...not 2052.

I think it just goes back to my earlier post. If you need a truck that has 4000 lbs of payload, go buy it. I'm in the process of doing just that because I want to comply with all aspects of the law....not pick and choose. I'm not trying to pick apart the sticker on the door trying to come up with some way to beat what it says. My GAWR is 12,500 as well with a gvw of 10k. What's my limit? 10k or 3200 payload.....I'm not going to exceed the gawr or the gcwr in my case. Seems like common sense to me but to each his own. And, again thanks for putting that info together.

[CarKath]

There 3 things that will dictate your weight capabilities.

1 - sticker on door post of truck .......... nothing supersedes this , ask your local scale master / DOT

2- sticker on trailer side wall ...........nothing supersedes this , ask your local scale master / DOT

3- Actual real world scale ticket that proves your within limits. Or not.

Everything else is conjecture.

No website can tell you are legal ......... none ......ever

I have lived this real world. First thing they did was open my door and check door post sticker . Then checked trailer sticker. Proof positive , it COULD happen. I was legal and moved on . It Could happen you are not , now what?

edited in part

They also checked my tire size on truck and trailer to make sure it matched weight capacity

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by Mover480

The GVWR of your truck is for the truck only, by itself, not connected to a trailer. When you're connected to the 5er, you need to be under the GAWR for the truck axles and for the trailer axles, along with the total combined weight being under the GCWR. Also, don't exceed the tire ratings.

I fully understand the GVWR and how it applies. The scale ticket when I picked up the 5r, was about 1000 pounds under the rear axle rating, and about 1500 under the tires.


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[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by CarKath

There 3 things that will dictate your weight capabilities.

1 - sticker on door post of truck .......... nothing supersedes this , ask your local scale master / DOT

2- sticker on trailer side wall ...........nothing supersedes this , ask your local scale master / DOT

3- Actual real world scale ticket that proves your within limits. Or not.

Everything else is conjecture.

No website can tell you are legal ......... none ......ever

I have lived this real world. First thing they did was open my door and check door post sticker . Then checked trailer sticker. Proof positive , it COULD happen. I was legal and moved on . It Could happen you are not , now what?

edited in part

They also checked my tire size on truck and trailer to make sure it matched weight capacity

With that being said, which part of the sticker and which sticker are they going to enforce? The 10k GVWR? The rear 6500 GAWR? The yellow manufacturer sticker that says payload should never exceed 2052? Based on my truck only scale weight above, I could put 1601 pounds in the bed, be one pound over the 10k GVWR, but over 1000 pounds under the rear axle rate.

I retired friend who worked in commercial truck enforcement (law enforcement) said in CA, they can really only ding for exceeding axle or tire ratings.


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[CarKath]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

I fully understand the GVWR and how it applies. The scale ticket when I picked up the 5r, was about 1000 pounds under the rear axle rating, and about 1500 under the tires.


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What was your total gross scaled and what is the total gross of truck by sticker ?

Not published weight. ( That has no bearing ) No variation.

Sticker weights and actual scaled weights . Nothing complicated . Just real And what you must comply with .

Sorry ,not my rules . it's just the law . Where? Oh ya. Everywhere

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by CarKath

What was your total gross scaled and what is the total gross of truck by sticker ?



Not published weight. ( That has no bearing ) No variation.



Sticker weights and actual scaled weights . Nothing complicated . Just real And what you must comply with .



Sorry ,not my rules . it's just the law . Where? Oh ya. Everywhere

The GVWR of the truck is 10k, and the scaled gross without trailer/hitch is 8400.


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[CarKath]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

With that being said, which part of the sticker and which sticker are they going to enforce? The 10k GVWR? The rear 6500 GAWR? The yellow manufacturer sticker that says payload should never exceed 2052? Based on my truck only scale weight above, I could put 1601 pounds in the bed, be one pound over the 10k GVWR, but over 1000 pounds under the rear axle rate.

I retired friend who worked in commercial truck enforcement (law enforcement) said in CA, they can really only ding for exceeding axle or tire ratings.


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It is a simple equation where I live .

You MUST meet every qualification of door sticker. So to simplify.

Axle weights and total gross must jive. Each and every axle and gross must not be over capacity. Combined.

Make more sense?

No one axle or combined weight can be over.

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by CarKath

It is a simple equation where I live .



You MUST meet every qualification of door sticker. So to simplify.



Axle weights and total gross must jive. Each and every axle and gross must not be over capacity. Combined.



Make more sense?



No one axle or combined weight can be over.

Which in my case is out of whack. According to the FMVSS sticker my front axle rating is 6k, my rear axle is 6500, for 12500, BUT the truck is limited to an arbitrary 10k, why????

When you're saying total gross then combined, are you referring to the truck and trailer? Because if so, scaled after pickup was 19440, which was about 8700 truck and the rest trailer.


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[Javi]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

Which in my case is out of whack. According to the FMVSS sticker my front axle rating is 6k, my rear axle is 6500, for 12500, BUT the truck is limited to an arbitrary 10k, why????

When you're saying total gross then combined, are you referring to the truck and trailer? Because if so, scaled after pickup was 19440, which was about 8700 truck and the rest trailer.


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10k is the limit... period....

How to get there is limited to a maximum of 6500 lbs on the rear axle and a maximum of 6000 lbs on the front axle, not a combination of both maximums.

Javi

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by Javi

10k is the limit... period....

How to get there is limited to a maximum of 6500 lbs on the rear axle and a maximum of 6000 lbs on the front axle, not a combination of both maximums.

Javi

So unfortunate how the manufacturers do their marketing and specs for the 3/4 tons.


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[CarKath]

It is not a manufacture issue . It is how YOU choose to interpret.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

So unfortunate how the manufacturers do their marketing and specs for the 3/4 tons.


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It isn't just 3/4 ton trucks... it is just how it is done...

For example my dually has a 14K GVWR...

5250 front

9650 rear

It is your responsibility to buy enough truck... the numbers are on the door post...

[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by CarKath

It is not a manufacture issue . It is how YOU choose to interpret.

True, to a degree, but when they advertise in their specs a GCWR of 25k and now I'm overweight at 19k because my 3/4 truck can't "legally" tow if it's at 10001 pounds???


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[Bolo4u]

Originally Posted by Javi

It isn't just 3/4 ton trucks... it is just how it is done...

For example my dually has a 14K GVWR...

5250 front

9650 rear

It is your responsibility to buy enough truck... the numbers are on the door post...

I had the truck first. Bought the trailer wanting to keep its gvwr at or below 12500. But now my truck may be overweight even though my rear axle is 1000 pounds under its rating.


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[CarKath]

Advertised specs mean ****. Each individual vehicle has it's own specs. DUH, all on the door post .

Not today or probably next month ,will you ever get bothered by the weight cops , I have been and you could.