So Called half-ton-towable fifth-wheels

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by ncgrl1

BOY!!! This topic always brings about the same rage. I don't understand it. If you want to buy a semi to pull a fifth wheel, have at it. Or you can buy a variety of pickups that will also pull it. Will my 1/2 ton hemi truck pull it as well as your HD diesel? NO. But your 3/4 - 1 ton won't pull it as well as a Freightliner either. But my truck does pull it, and it pulls it well in my opinion. I just don't understand why it bothers everybody so much...

I used to tow for a living...

The average person has NO CLUE when it comes to towing. I currently drive 50,000 miles a year for work. I would wager that at least half if not two thirds of the RV type towing rigs, as well as many lighter commercial rigs, I see on the road are illegal, not to mention unsafe. What blows my mind is how far from home some of these rigs are. MN plates in GA, NJ plates in NV, etc.

I am very conservative when it comes to towing, safety first. Mine and everyone elses!

FWIW I tow with everything from an F150 to a Class 8. For the lighter trucks my basic rule is 75% of truck rated towing capacity against the max GVW of the trailer. Anything that doesn't match up gets further scrutiny. Can that be exceeded safely? Absolutely, but not without qualification.

Aaron

[sourdough]

Javi - CJ5 - 28' trailer? Man, I knuckle up pulling my wood splitter with my CJ7. Of course I just have the original (rebuilt) 258ci and 4:10s but...whew! A CJ5 is so short and all CJs weigh next to nothing. As far as doing it again - please! take care of yourself

[notanlines]

Actually I rather enjoy reading posts like these rather than the old "I have mice in my couch" type subjects. I personally would rather just buy a 2500 Chevvy and be ready to go than to load up a 1500 to make it comparable, but if I happened to own the 1500 on the front end then it only makes sense to "run what you brung" if at all possible. Also, I might add that when one travels across this country and Canada you will see every kind of combination under the sun. The main problem rigs we see are crossovers (Bumber pulls) hauling trailers way, way beyond their capabilities. Brenda and I are boaters and we also haul a 35' Fountain Lightning. Boat and trailer full of fuel weigh in at just over 12K. If you watch the highway you will see many, many cars and trucks hauling large boats with no WDH at all.

[sourdough]

AGYOUNG

Maximum combined GCVW for any combination for your truck is 17,100 - possibly less. Your weight of 17,700 at the scales tells you that you are considerably overweight. You can't make a 1/2 ton pickup into a 3/4 ton with heavy springs and air bags. You need to replace the frame as well........
I know you had the truck when you bought the trailer and want to use it...been there, done that. I hope you seriously consider a truck upgrade when you sell your house for the well being of yourself, your family and those sharing the road with you.

[sourdough]

AGYOUNG

Further food for thought:

Your F150 maximum payload is 1599lbs - 2400lbs max. depending on truck configuration. The pin weight (unloaded) of your trailer is 2165lbs. Loaded your pin will exceed 2200lbs. If you have a max payload, which you may not, you have 200 lbs left for people and everything else. Your truck loaded, as you stated, is 6600lbs. That is about 1300lbs over dry weight. You had 200lbs before you hit MAX payload but you have 1300lbs - way overweight. I could go on but you get the drift. You have way more trailer than what your truck can safely tow. Even your own weights tell you that you are within 100lbs of the VERY MAX you can safely tow with the truck....on paper (the one weight category you are somewhat close to meeting). Please give it some serious thought. "Pulling" is a tiny piece of the "towing" equation.

***Did not see post above until after this was written. I will post anyway in case you haven't crunched these - might help in speccing a new truck. Good luck on the sale of the home and purchase of a new truck. There won't be a lot of difference between the 3/4 ton vs the 1 ton for the wife unless you go DRW.

[larry337]

In my opinion you can't paint everyone into the same corner. There are too many variables. One thing that stands out is these modern trucks, all of them, are way more stout than they were 20-25 years ago. Properly equipped half tons have similar capability to the old 3/4 tons. Add in traction control, sway control, ABS, hill decent, hill assist and you have a pretty capable half ton truck. Things to consider: 1) USAGE-If were talking short weekend trips on flat ground a half ton could work at max capacity. Its not feasible for some people to buy a big $60k truck for a few short trips and try to drive to work in tight parking garages, let alone fit it into their own garage. Now if the trips are longer, thru mountain ranges, etc then a bigger truck may make more sense. 2) STRAIN on the TV. Again the more you push the truck the more likely you are to break something. Also the more you drive the more you have to factor in driver fatigue and a bigger truck handles the load better and easier. 3) SAFETY-In my opinion the number one factor in safety is the driver period. The best way to handle an "uh oh" moment is to not get into one in the first place. I got news for ya, an evasive manuever with a big top heavy trailer is probably not going to end well no matter the tow vehicle. They're not made to swerve. To prevent "uh oh" moments keep plenty of following distance. Roughly 6-8 seconds at highway speed. Keep your eyes focused farther down the road. As far as you can see. Keep scanning. Don't fall into staring at the road in front of your hood or the vehicle in front of you. Check your mirrors frequently, like every 30 seconds or even more. Know whats around you. Avoid aggressive driving. I say all this as a professional truck driver who pulls doubles and triples on the Ohio turnpike every night in all kinds of weather.

A half ton at max can work very well for some people, not all, when driven safely. Personally I prefer a 3/4 ton because I know it does a better job. That's just me though. I understand why some people choose to use a half ton and I agree there's cases where it would work. But a 337FLS with a half ton? Thats too much my friend, get a bigger truck!

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by larry337

I understand why some people choose to use a half ton and I agree there's cases where it would work. But a 337FLS with a half ton? Thats too much my friend, get a bigger truck!

larry337 -
I would suspect that there are a number of members, including myself, who would agree with you that an F150 is just not enough truck for a 37' 5th wheel. It seems that AGYoung agrees and that sometime down the road, he'll get a bigger truck.

He indicates that he will "consider a diesel but until then it's happy trails for us" and that "we're going to dance with the girl I brought until a different song is played". I understand that to mean that he'll keep pulling his 5th wheel with the truck he has now until he is able to get a bigger and more suitable tow vehicle.

In the meantime while "we" are waiting for that to happen, he will be on the road towing a 5th wheel that is clearly too much for his F150 - a situation which is not only unsafe but also dangerous IMO. This may be "happy trails" for AGYoung, but not for the rest of us.

According to AGYoung, the F150 "has demonstrated its ability to tow my 5th wheel", he is "still below the towing capacity of the truck (according to his math) ", it "handles fine, stopping is good" and that it "has no trouble towing".

I think that your situation is not one of those cases where towing a 5th wheel of that size and weight with your F150 would work and I too would encourage you to consider moving up to a bigger truck before you "dance with the girl I brought until a different song is played".

Please, listen to the music and get a new dance partner.

[JRTJH]

I may be wasting my time by even composing this and posting it, however, I do feel it is important enough to take the time to express my feelings on the topic. The following is my opinion. Others may disagree, but these are the facts as I see them:

My 2013 F250 supercab 6.2l gas engine (GVW 10,000 lb) has a payload of 2747 lbs (per the yellow loading sticker). If it were a diesel the payload would be reduced about 500 lbs, if it were a crewcab it would be reduced another 250 lbs, if it were a short bed (6'8") it would add about 150 lbs to the payload. This is an estimate: the anticipated payload for a 2015 F250 6.7L diesel XLT crewcab will be about 2147 lbs. Someone who has this model truck could please confirm their payload.

With my gas engine truck and its 2747pound payload, I'd be reluctant to load my wife (145), dog (80), generator (125), 5 gallons of gas (30), blue tote (20), hitch (150) and attempt to pull that trailer. My load before the tongue weight would be about 550 pounds. That would leave me with a remaining payload of 2197. Considering the Cougar 337FLS, by the time you add the empty pin weight of 2165 plus a battery (45) and propane (60) the trailer pin already weighs 2270 pounds. That means that the EMPTY trailer is 73 pounds over the payload of my gas F250 XLT loaded as I usually do to travel with my wife. Remember that the diesel will be about 500 heavier, the Lariat package will be about 200 pounds heavier, any cargo you add to either the truck or trailer will significantly put the rig in overweight status.

There is simply no way the "heaviest" F150 can safely tow a Cougar 337FLS. I honestly believe that the dealer who sold this trailer to anyone with the knowledge that it would be towed with an F150 should be dealt with appropriately by not only Keystone, but the state Attorney General and the County Prosecutor. It should be a crime to represent this type of trailer as being "half ton towable".

The F350 single rear wheel truck (with a GVW of 11,500 lbs) is the same physical size as the F250 with a GVW of 10,000 lbs. The SRW F350 is, in my opinion, the appropriate truck to pair with a 37' fifth wheel that has an empty weight of slightly more than 10200 pounds and an empty pin weight of about 2200 lbs (with battery and propane).

As for driving the F250/F350, the chassis, body length and width are the same. The F350 does sit about 1" higher than the F250, otherwise, they are identical in size. Ride, however is a bit rougher, but not noticeably rougher once it is on the highway. The most common time to notice the difference in ride quality is when test driving the two trucks, one after the other. Once either truck becomes a "daily driver" most drivers notice little if any difference in "their truck ride quality".

AGYOUNG, I would urge you not to tow that size trailer with an undersized and under-rated F150. Should you be involved in an accident, even if it isn't your fault, almost any lawyer could easily prove negligence on your part. However, even if you aren't involved in an accident, placing your family and the public safety at risk is inappropriate. Should anything happen, the guy you look at in the mirror is the one you will have to live with as you try to come to grips with what happened.

[larry337]

I agree with everybody but I just wanted to point out my argument was more to the debate of the so-called tweener trailers in the seven to eight thousand pound range. The 337 is by no means a tweener and is not advertised by Keystone as a half ton fifth wheel.

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by AGYOUNG

I understand all the arguments stated. Yes the dealer who sold me the trailer and associated upgrades saw the truck and was expressly informed that it would be the tow vehicle. One of the service managers was kind enough to pick up my truck to install the air bags, 5W hitch and bed mounted trailer plug.

Do you think for one minute that the RV dealer cared of your TV was rated to tow the trailer or not?

Did he tell you that adding airbags increased the axle rating?

Not trying to rain on your parade, but rather provide insight.

Air bags do NOTHING for weight ratings, they just keep the headlights from pointing to the sky.

[sourdough]

JRTJH

Composing your post is not a waste. You, Festus and others helped convince me to buy a new truck although I certainly didn't want it (existing truck had 14k miles). I was at or near all my load limits and I could not reconcile pulling the trailer any longer (after many sleepless nights) and thinking of what I could do to my family or others.

AGYOUNG

It's obvious that you didn't do hour homework before buying the RV. The numbers are glaringly obvious. If you let the RV salesperson tell you what your towing specs were without any research on your part...shame on you. If, after knowing that you could put your family and others in danger - to a great degree, you choose to be flippant about what you are doing, again, shame on you.

I don't think anyone trying to steer you in the right direction and worrying about your family's safety owes you $100 so you can do the right thing. I determined I had to "buck up"; what say you?

Your concern needs to be with the situation where you lose control of your trailer ( which could very easily happen) due to such gross overweighting, it goes out of control, instead of going over the embankment it actually slides into oncoming traffic, hits another vehicle and kills the occupants, as you, in total lack of control, watch your truck start tumbling down an embankment tossing your wife and kids out of the truck rolling over them leaving you alive.

When the state police investigate you are found to be grossly overweight. You will go to prison, have a huge fine, face tremendous civil penalties and have to live with looking at yourself every day knowing you killed your family. Your life will be over. Why?

I'm sorry about being graphic but I'm not sure you get it. I've seen this. I helped pull the folks out of the trees amid the shambles of the RV/truck. You don't want that....I promise.

[Ken / Claudia]

I wish that the police/firefighters/EMS would tell their stories on here about that worst crash investigation they seen or where told about by coworkers regarding what happened when the overloaded pickup/trailer combo hit someone else. Mine was told to me and I seen the photos from a coworker. 1 ton truck pulling a flatbed with backhoe. Freeway traffic stopped, he did stop only after his pickup was on top of a small car killing all inside. I do not know how much over weight it was and does it really matter. But, as with most of these stories it started with driving to fast, following to close, trailer brakes some worked some not correctly. Story ended years later in court.

[JRTJH]

I don't think you'll find very many people who need another dependent and $100 from each active member probably won't make a good down payment on a truck. Since you brought up the "bargaining aspect", How about this: It's winter, your trailer is either in storage or should be by now, you know the reality of the tow vehicle you currently own and realize it's inadequate for your purposes. So, why not consider leaving the trailer sit until you sell the house and can afford to upgrade your tow vehicle. You wouldn't jump out of an airplane without a parachute (maybe even with one) so why put yourself and your family at risk by towing an unsafe rig unnecessarily?

To illustrate a bit, I owned a 2010 F150 HD with max tow package. We towed a 26' Springdale fifth wheel and towed our bass boat behind that. When the trailer was destroyed by a falling tree, we elected to upgrade to a Cougar 27RKS. That's a 31' XLite fifth wheel that is marketed as "half ton towable". I did the math and elected to buy our current F250 rather than tow with an F150 that was "likely to be overloaded" by the new Cougar. Empty weight is about 7200 lbs, pin weight is 1250 lbs and GVW is 10,000 lbs. It's "well within" the specs that Ford established for my F150, provided I leave either my wife, the dog or possibly both at home "IF" the trailer is loaded at GVW.

You're not the only one who had to face the purchase of a new tow vehicle with the desired RV. The forum is filled with threads of people who wanted to upgrade and first had to get an adequate tow vehicle. There are even some accounts of people who tried it and then realized their light duty tow vehicle is "in over its head". I just did the upgraded truck and larger RV last June. If you compare the two, my 7200 lb Cougar and your 10,000 lb Cougar, you'll see that you are 2800 pounds heavier "EMPTY" than I am with a pin weight that's 1000 pounds heavier. That's like pretending the elephant sitting on your chest doesn't affect your breathing..... You simply can't ignore the fact that you're turning purple as you gasp for air.

I wouldn't tow that big of a fifth wheel to the dealer for service with that truck, much less risk a winter tow from Minnesota to Florida on icy roads !!!!! It really sounds like your dealer, salesman and the service manager didn't do you any favors at all.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I may be wasting my time by even composing this and posting it, however, I do feel it is important enough to take the time to express my feelings on the topic. The following is my opinion. Others may disagree, but these are the facts as I see them:

My 2013 F250 supercab 6.2l gas engine (GVW 10,000 lb) has a payload of 2747 lbs (per the yellow loading sticker). If it were a diesel the payload would be reduced about 500 lbs, if it were a crewcab it would be reduced another 250 lbs, if it were a short bed (6'8") it would add about 150 lbs to the payload. This is an estimate: the anticipated payload for a 2015 F250 6.7L diesel XLT crewcab will be about 2147 lbs. Someone who has this model truck could please confirm their payload.

With my gas engine truck and its 2747pound payload, I'd be reluctant to load my wife (145), dog (80), generator (125), 5 gallons of gas (30), blue tote (20), hitch (150) and attempt to pull that trailer. My load before the tongue weight would be about 550 pounds. That would leave me with a remaining payload of 2197. Considering the Cougar 337FLS, by the time you add the empty pin weight of 2165 plus a battery (45) and propane (60) the trailer pin already weighs 2270 pounds. That means that the EMPTY trailer is 73 pounds over the payload of my gas F250 XLT loaded as I usually do to travel with my wife. Remember that the diesel will be about 500 heavier, the Lariat package will be about 200 pounds heavier, any cargo you add to either the truck or trailer will significantly put the rig in overweight status.

There is simply no way the "heaviest" F150 can safely tow a Cougar 337FLS. I honestly believe that the dealer who sold this trailer to anyone with the knowledge that it would be towed with an F150 should be dealt with appropriately by not only Keystone, but the state Attorney General and the County Prosecutor. It should be a crime to represent this type of trailer as being "half ton towable".

The F350 single rear wheel truck (with a GVW of 11,500 lbs) is the same physical size as the F250 with a GVW of 10,000 lbs. The SRW F350 is, in my opinion, the appropriate truck to pair with a 37' fifth wheel that has an empty weight of slightly more than 10200 pounds and an empty pin weight of about 2200 lbs (with battery and propane).

As for driving the F250/F350, the chassis, body length and width are the same. The F350 does sit about 1" higher than the F250, otherwise, they are identical in size. Ride, however is a bit rougher, but not noticeably rougher once it is on the highway. The most common time to notice the difference in ride quality is when test driving the two trucks, one after the other. Once either truck becomes a "daily driver" most drivers notice little if any difference in "their truck ride quality".

AGYOUNG, I would urge you not to tow that size trailer with an undersized and under-rated F150. Should you be involved in an accident, even if it isn't your fault, almost any lawyer could easily prove negligence on your part. However, even if you aren't involved in an accident, placing your family and the public safety at risk is inappropriate. Should anything happen, the guy you look at in the mirror is the one you will have to live with as you try to come to grips with what happened.

John, here is my door sticker..

[JRTJH]

Thank you for your service, who knows we may have been at the same place or nearby during those trying times. A large number of veterans are the members contributing to this thread. It's not hostility, rather concern that causes us to express our concern for the safety of your family. If you take the comments any other way, you're the one that's getting upset by our honesty, personal experiences and factual information. Whatever you choose to do, none of the members wish you anything but safe travels. The reality of the situation is that you control those safe travels more so than any of us.

I hope you have as good a day as possible after learning the facts about your RV and tow vehicle.

Good Luck,

[sourdough]

ACYOUNG

As has been stated; these posts are an effort to 1) help you know things you may not know, 2) identify where you may be jeopardizing yourself or others and hopefully help you in every other aspect of trying to "RV".

You obviously have convinced yourself with what you are doing and no matter how right/wrong they are you are in control.

This is a friendly forum. Lord knows when I came in with my observations I was shot at and shot down. I know how to take that and I appreciated everyones concern...for me. I also knew how to accept that I had made a bad decision....I can't blame my decisions on others.

As far as leaving your 50k investment until you've met the expectations of those on this forum; I would hope that you would leave your 50k investment sitting due to your common sense, lack of personal research and concern for the welfare of your family.

I thank you for your service but I doubt that you and I would have crossed paths.... You're on a forum that has lots of vets; older vets; we don't bring up service etc. as some sort of "line". We all grew up.

Wish you the best with your travels and please..DO give us your itinerary so you don't try to kill us

[Hansel]

Originally Posted by Randy_K

Once again we can say that all " 1/2 ton " trucks are not the same. A F150 with trailer package and max tow can carry and tow more then the plain F250 3/4 ton. The new 2015 F150 is 750 lbs lighter yet will the same suspension . The 2015 will be even more capable. YOU HAVE TO READ THE SPECIFICATIONS .

Okay I knew someone would pick up on what I said, that's my point some people will just look at a number and say ya I can tow 11K camper.

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

I wish that the police/firefighters/EMS would tell their stories on here about that worst crash investigation they seen or where told about by coworkers regarding what happened when the overloaded pickup/trailer combo hit someone else. Mine was told to me and I seen the photos from a coworker. 1 ton truck pulling a flatbed with backhoe. Freeway traffic stopped, he did stop only after his pickup was on top of a small car killing all inside. I do not know how much over weight it was and does it really matter. But, as with most of these stories it started with driving to fast, following to close, trailer brakes some worked some not correctly. Story ended years later in court.

I spent from 1986 to 2005 as a firefighter/EMT and I had seen plenty of vehicle accident's, the area I worked was mostly agricultural which means heavy equipment (sugar cane trucks) and they show no mercy, when run into or run over something. I have seen first hand car's, truck's, and SUV's torn apart like a tin can by sugar cane truck's and trailer's, one we responded too was someone struck the back of a trailer, everyone was DOA it was probably one of the nastiest call's I'd ever seen. they say speed kills', well it does.

Also I believe the dealership's need more education on a properly spec'd tow vehicle, and not just selling the biggest unit on the lot. And as for those that feel that some of us overreact when someone want's too tow more than what's recommended doesn't care about the other's on the road, I have seen what happens to a person when accident's happens and every time I see a overloaded truck/RV I wish I was a DOT officer. People cant be replaced.

[notanlines]

All of you need to click on the latest post under the "Towing" section titled "What the heck."

[Javi]

I can understand getting bent out of shape at us folks for jumping all over you; it is however the nature of the beast.

Some of us have been running these roads for a long time and we've seen a lot of mayhem caused by well meaning folks who are not uncaring nor are they stupid. Rather they are just uninformed, or in a lot of cases misinformed and mislead.

[Desert185]

Originally Posted by AGYOUNG

THE HORSE IS DEAD. Stop beating it.

Ok everyone. I give up. I'll leave the RV parked until I meet all the expectations of the members of this forum. In fact I will give up RVing completely. I never though I could be so stupid to think eveyone is friendly here.

I'll just let my $50,000 investment sit until I can fulfill everyone elses expectations. If I wanted all this grief I would have stayed married to my first wife. I volunteered to go back to the combat zone to get away from her. Getting shot at was preferrable. At least there I could shoot back along with 120 of my closest friends.

Just think my brothers and I bled so each any every of you can speak your piece without any repercussions.


See you all on the Happy Trails.
I promise to post our itinery so those of you that feel it necessary to stay off MY ROAD can do so.

Stick aound and lurk for awhile. This forum is atypical of many on the net in that it is helpful without condemnation and condescension (really). Folks are just trying to help your cause...its nothing personal. You really do have weight issues and no one wants to see you, your's, their's and others get hurt. At least take it to heart from folks who are really trying to help and then do what you think is best for your current circumstances. Consider it a learning process from others who have made the same mistakes.

Thanks for your service, from a fellow vet.