Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Tires, Tires, Tires!
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-12-2015, 06:31 AM   #1
jsmith948
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Central San Joaguin Valley, CA
Posts: 2,117
Last of the Towmax

Replaced the Power King Towmax tires 2 years ago. We have been very pleased with the Maxxis load range E. In an attempt to save some coin, we kept what appeared to be the best of the Towmax for a spare. While doing some minor maintenance on the 5er yesterday, I noticed a bulge/lump in the spare tire cover. Removed the cover and discovered this.


Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2724.jpg
Views:	215
Size:	87.9 KB
ID:	9527

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2726.jpg
Views:	170
Size:	19.1 KB
ID:	9528

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF2727.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	38.2 KB
ID:	9529


This tire had been on the ground for 3723 miles (+ about 1k from the factory to the dealer). Never curbed and pressure always maintained (at least while we had it - don't know about the transporter). Tire was fine when we returned from our trip to WA. Good thing we didn't need to use it
__________________

Jack & Marty
2018 Laredo 298 SRL
2011 F-250 SB Crew Cab 4x4 6.7L
jsmith948 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2015, 07:06 AM   #2
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,772
I've had similar deterioration on spare tires, both on boat trailers and RV's. All of the tires have been stored on the back bumper and under a cover (either aluminum hard cover or a vinyl cover). I wonder if heat buildup and lack of ventilation under the cover has anything to do with the damage?

That's the main reason I was so concerned with getting my spare off the bumper and under the trailer on a BAL tire carrier. So far, I've never experienced this kind of deterioration on tires except for ones stored on the bumper. I can't say with any certainty, but I'm convinced that there's a link to where the tire is mounted and the deterioration.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2015, 07:47 AM   #3
jsmith948
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Central San Joaguin Valley, CA
Posts: 2,117
John, that's a good point. Coincidentally, the trailer is parked with the spare facing due west. We keep all of the other tires covered with an open weave sun shade type cloth and plywood cut-outs so heat build up is not an issue on those. A Bal tire rack may be in our future.
__________________

Jack & Marty
2018 Laredo 298 SRL
2011 F-250 SB Crew Cab 4x4 6.7L
jsmith948 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 07:52 AM   #4
tdawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Winterset, Ia
Posts: 280
I must be a lucky one. Our 2013 Alpine with tow Maxx tires look real good still. I know looks are deceiving.
tdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 01:44 PM   #5
gearhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Liberty, Texas
Posts: 5,021
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdawg View Post
I must be a lucky one. Our 2013 Alpine with tow Maxx tires look real good still. I know looks are deceiving.
tic...tic...tic...
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 Laramie CC DRW LWB 4X4 Cummins Aisin 3.73
Reese Goosebox 20K
2018 Heartland Landmark 365 Oshkosh
2008 Bigfoot 25C9.4 LB Cabover
gearhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 05:32 PM   #6
CaptnJohn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Ocean Isle Beach
Posts: 1,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdawg View Post
I must be a lucky one. Our 2013 Alpine with tow Maxx tires look real good still. I know looks are deceiving.

You should be playing the lottery every time you connect the TV to the camper
CaptnJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 06:10 PM   #7
tdawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Winterset, Ia
Posts: 280
1 more year or less then i plan on replacing. we dont put alot of miles on but it only takes 1
tdawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 10:06 PM   #8
jkarlosn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Ga
Posts: 2
I also heard negative reviews about the Tow Max like bulging sidewall and leaks.
jkarlosn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 10:54 PM   #9
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,772
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdawg View Post
1 more year or less then i plan on replacing. we dont put alot of miles on but it only takes 1
Here's something to consider: It is estimated that in approximately three years, roughly one-third of a ST tire's strength is gone. The reference for this is at the bottom of this post. (Check page 3 in the "best practices).

The "lightest 2013 Alpine (3250RL) has an empty axle weight of about 9000 pounds. That's 2250 per tire for the empty trailer. All the Alpines are equipped with 235/80R/16 LRE tires. The "new tire" load rating at 80PSI is 3420. If your trailer was manufactured in 2013, the best case would have tires that are 3+ years old. If it was manufactured in 2012, there's a possibility the tires were manufactured in 2011 making them almost 5 years old. The "best case" is that the tires are 3 years old and have lost 33% of their capacity. That means that they would be rated about 33% less than the 3420, or somewhere around 2291 each. Total rating for the 4 tires would be about 9165 on the axles plus the pin weight. So, if you've got much more than 165pounds of battery, propane, water and camping gear, there's a good chance that you're running your tires in an "overloaded condition". That's with the lightest Alpine, it only gets "worse" the bigger the trailer....

ST tires "time out" much faster than LT or P series tires (recommended age is 6 years for them).

It's up to you, but you might want to consider that you're probably "living on borrowed time" with 3+ year old ST tires. If it's any "consolation", My Cougar is a 2014 and I am replacing the ST tires on it in the spring. I consider that I've been pretty fortunate to have gotten 3 years of camping and around 20,000 miles out of them. They still "look new" but I know the trailer weighs more than their "degraded load capacity".........

All of the ST tire manufacturers pretty much have the same information, here's the Carlisle Tire reference:
http://www.carlisletransportationpro..._Practices.pdf
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2015, 09:31 AM   #10
EVMIII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Biloxi, MS
Posts: 133
– Maintain air pressure at the maximum PSI recommended on the
tire sidewall.

This is a quote from the referenced Carlisle reference. This is contrary to the most common opinions I've seen on this board. Most common opinion I have read says match your pressures to your weight. The Carilsle reference also says you should have 20% extra capacity.

Applied to my case, trailer fully loaded weighs 12,000 lbs. Tires are 235/80 R16 E with a listed load capacity at 3320@85 lbs (single) 3080 (double). If I interpret correctly with two axles (Dexter 7K) I have a load capacity of 13,280.

20% extra capacity is another 2400lbs for a total of 14,400 (1120 over my capacity.). This is how the trailer came from the factory. I'm already over loaded. Rims are only good to 100 PSI, tough to get there with the existing rims. Very confusing to someone new to the camper world (like me).
__________________
2014 Alpine 3010 RE.
2007 Chevy 3500DRW, CREW CAB
EVMIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2015, 12:01 PM   #11
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,772
EVMIII,

There are probably 50+ threads in the past 18 months that specifically address the issue of "virtually every" RV manufacturer installing tires (and sometimes wheels) that barely meet the minimum requirement for the GVW. Then, a couple years later, with tire age factored in, the tires no longer meet "minimum recommendations".... We're pretty much all "caught up in that concern". Some, with heavier RV's, toyhaulers and trailers with larger than life cargo capacity are finding that the "factory tires" are simply not adequate for their RV.

A large number of owners are upgrading to LRG tires and some are even changing out wheel sizes to adapt to commercial truck tires.

Read through the "Tires, Tires, Tires" section of the forum, learn what other owners have experienced and ask questions on things you don't understand. You're right, it's confusing for a "first time RV owner", but once you "dig in the posts" a bit, it will start to make sense to you.

One thing to remember is that the axles are NOT rated to carry the GVW. The manufacturers calculate the pin weight/tongue weight and deduct that from the axle rating. That allows them to, in many fifth wheel applications, install tires/axles/wheels that are rated, sometimes as much as 20% (recommended pin weight) below the trailer GVW....

Do some reading and it will start making more sense to you, but essentially, you're correct in thinking that many RV's (from almost every manufacturer) are shipped with "bare minimum tires"...........
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2015, 01:22 PM   #12
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,772
I did some "number crunching" with the specifications on the Alpine 3010RE from the Keystone website. Here's "a quick rundown" of what it all means to me (for whatever that might be worth):

SPECS:
Shipping weight: 11580
Cargo Capacity: 3420
Pin Weight: 2445

That would mean:
GVW: 15000
Max Pin (20%): 3000
Max Axle Weight: 12000

So, At shipping from the factory, the trailer weight is 11580 with 2445 on the pin, leaving 9135 on the axles. The tires are rated at 3420 each (at 80 PSI) for a total of 6840 per axle, 13680 for both axles. That's a reserve of 4545 (49%) when the trailer was shipped and a reserve of 1680 (at GVW) assuming the pin weight is maintained at 20% of total weight. That equates to a tire reserve of 14% at maximum weight. As you can see, that is 6% below the Carlisle recommendation of 20% reserve. It is my understanding that RV's (trailers) are not required to meet any specific "safety reserve" in tire loading. Trailers are apparently exempt from the reserve, they only have to have "tires that meet the requirement".....


So, technically, your trailer tires are not "overloaded" and even at GVW, meet the "minimum requirement".

The "rub" (at least in my opinion) comes with tire aging. Each year the tires lose about 10% of their load capacity. This means that in about 18 months from manufacture, on your specific trailer, you will lose the 14% reserve that you had when the trailer was manufactured and you'll be "at the maximum rating" for your tires when loaded to GVW.

I know this all seems confusing, but hopefully with some research of old threads and some digging into the load/inflation charts for ST tires, you'll come to understand the following:
1. Trailer manufacturers deduct the pin weight/tongue weight from the GVW when calculating the axle rating requirements.
2. Axle rating becomes "secondary" when tires that are installed are rated lower than the axle. The lowest rating, axle, tire or wheel is the limiting factor and the assembly is limited to the lowest rating.
3. That "reduced axle rating" doesn't require tires to support the trailer GVW.
4. Tires are not installed on RV's with a 20% reserve capacity (even thought Carlisle recommends it).
5. Tires start "losing load capacity" the day they are manufactured and can be a year old (or older) when installed on an RV at the factory.
6 A 3 year old RV likely has tires that are "maxed out" when the RV is loaded to GVW.
7. Upgrading tires is a "near requirement" for most owners.

Keep in mind that many people are still "dragging their 2000 year model on the original tires and have not yet had any problems with tire wear, blowouts or damaged tires. Some of those people have never even inspected the tires, bearings, brakes or suspension. Is it "wise" to ignore your RV? Some say yes, many more are 'pro-active" and they seem to have less "living on the edge" kind of situations. But there's always that "one lucky soul" who is 15 years out and will "swear that he never has any problems"........... I'm not that lucky !!!!!
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2015, 03:57 PM   #13
EVMIII
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Biloxi, MS
Posts: 133
John,

Thanks for the research, my research and reading have led me to pretty much the same numbers and conclusions. I have reached a few conclusions:

1. I need to increase the tire pressure before I tow again. It came from the dealer with 65 lbs per tire, the math tells me I need to be up to 75-80 psi.

2. The tires on my 2014 are now about 2 years old and are nearing the end of their lifecycle.

3. The Trailer King tires that came on my $40K trailer were low quality to start with. Not that cost always represents quality, but they are $65 each. The most recommended replacements are all at least a couple hundred each.

4. My luck seems to be more like your luck. I heard somebody say once (referring to someone else), "the only reason he can sleep is that He doesn't know how much he doesn't know." Well, now I now.

The decision has been made to replace the tires. Now the possibly equally as confusing process of choosing their replacements. (Carlisle Radial RH, Maxxis, etc....)

Thanks again for your help, looking forward continuining to learn .

Bud
__________________
2014 Alpine 3010 RE.
2007 Chevy 3500DRW, CREW CAB
EVMIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2015, 05:01 PM   #14
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,772
In response, You're very welcome.

1. If you've towed for any significant distance at 65 PSI, you may have already damaged the tire carcass, making your problems even more complex, so yes, increasing to 80 PSI would be much more appropriate, but for this set of tires, it may be too little too late...

2. Even if your tires aren't "at the end of their lifecycle" with the low pressure, they may be damaged beyond hope...

3. It's not only Keystone that uses "extremely low priced tires"... Almost all of the major manufacturers do the same. There are a couple who offer an option of better tires at an increased cost, but even the most expensive trailers often come with TowMax or Marathon tires.

4. If it weren't for "bad luck" I'd have "no luck at all" and I do sleep well at night, probably because I'm exhausted from "worrying too much" <sigh>

If you're looking to "increase capacity" you'll have to "increase size" or "increase load range". All ST tires in a specific size are all rated the same capacity at a specific PSI. I don't think you'll find much improvement by increasing size from what you're currently using, so increasing load rating (and that means pressure also) will be your most realistic choice. That will mean assuring your wheels are rated high enough in load and pressure ratings for the upgraded load range tires you choose. There are several threads about Sailun as well as the LRG Carlisle tires. Good Luck !!!
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.