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Old 02-23-2020, 08:07 AM   #41
JRTJH
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Originally Posted by michaelrc51 View Post
A F-350 SRW with a GVWR of 10k lbs?? This would be an F-250, similar to what Ram did .....

...the dealer I bought my truck from refunded me for some of the registration fees.....they registered my truck as a 5k lbs vehicle!
Yes, you can order a 9900/10000 GVW package on a F350 SRW or you can order a 11400 (SRW)/13000 (DRW) GVW package on the same truck.
https://shop.ford.com/build/superdut...RW.350.CBB.%5D

Scroll down to "packages" and it's the first two optional packages available on a custom build truck.

As for registering your vehicle at 5K, in some states, the owner/person actually processing the registration can declare the vehicle weight restrictions and register a "larger" vehicle GVW at a "smaller" vehicle declared GVW. Essentially, in many states, what you're doing is making a declaration that the vehicle will NEVER be used on the public roads with a weight heavier than the declaration. In most of those states, you trade "GVW" for "lower registration fees". By making the declaration and paying the reduced fees, if you should get caught with a load that places the vehicle on the public road, you are subject to a "sometimes hefty penalty"...

If I were you, I'd seek clarification from the state automobile registration section (in Michigan, it's the Secretary of State) to see if you can "legally" tow your trailer with that vehicle with the reduced GVW declaration. I'd suspect they'll tell you that your vehicle can't be driven on the highway with the current registration if it weighs more than 5000 pounds.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:15 AM   #42
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1/2 ton trucks are moving to independent rear suspension and coils springs at GM, they're getting ready for "electrification".

It seems that RAM already has coil springs on their 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks now, hence the greatly reduced payload.
I just looked at payload for Ram trucks.... it's REALLY low compared to the GM products.

I have a brand new 1/2 ton silverado, and payload is 2250# The 3/4 ton new silverado has 3800# payload.

Not sure what trucks at GM are slated for IRS, but I'm curious about their capabilities. I don't have direct knowledge inside engineering any longer.

The 10K GVWR isn't a hard limit for registration/classification. each state has their own rules... Insurance may be another matter.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:38 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by fjr vfr View Post
If I had a dollar for every tv I see towing over their limit, I'd have enough for a new truck.
Yeah me too in one short camping season.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:43 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Yes, you can order a 9900/10000 GVW package on a F350 SRW or you can order a 11400 (SRW)/13000 (DRW) GVW package on the same truck.
https://shop.ford.com/build/superdut...RW.350.CBB.%5D

Scroll down to "packages" and it's the first two optional packages available on a custom build truck.

As for registering your vehicle at 5K, in some states, the owner/person actually processing the registration can declare the vehicle weight restrictions and register a "larger" vehicle GVW at a "smaller" vehicle declared GVW. Essentially, in many states, what you're doing is making a declaration that the vehicle will NEVER be used on the public roads with a weight heavier than the declaration. In most of those states, you trade "GVW" for "lower registration fees". By making the declaration and paying the reduced fees, if you should get caught with a load that places the vehicle on the public road, you are subject to a "sometimes hefty penalty"...

If I were you, I'd seek clarification from the state automobile registration section (in Michigan, it's the Secretary of State) to see if you can "legally" tow your trailer with that vehicle with the reduced GVW declaration. I'd suspect they'll tell you that your vehicle can't be driven on the highway with the current registration if it weighs more than 5000 pounds.
Exactly.
I can not pull my trailer with current registration, I have to redo everything for correct weights.
I just thought it was ridiculous/funny that a dealership would do this to a vehicle that weighs 8200lbs.
Technically, it doesn't appear it's legal to even drive the truck on the road at it's current registered weight.
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:47 AM   #45
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Exactly.
I can not pull my trailer with current registration, I have to redo everything for correct weights.
I just thought it was ridiculous/funny that a dealership would do this to a vehicle that weighs 8200lbs.
Technically, it doesn't appear it's legal to even drive the truck on the road at it's current registered weight.
Oh, the "favors" some dealers do "for/to" customers, eh ???
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:54 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by tomkat2 View Post
Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!
My (was slightly) overloaded 2018 Montana was professionally weighed wheel by wheel and GVW was 18,275 with a pin weight of 4,125 or 22.6%
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Old 02-23-2020, 08:57 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Oh, the "favors" some dealers do "for/to" customers, eh ???
Lol, yeah!

I wish they would've contacted me first. I liked getting a check back but I would've rathered be legal.
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Old 02-23-2020, 02:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by tomkat2 View Post
Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!
Enjoy! We just bought a 294RL and leave PA on Tue for a 7 week trip! A month in FL and enjoying the trip there and back with several great stops and SPs. So, I donít know about weights yet but feel good that my F350 Lariat 7.2L gas single wheel full bed will be just fine! Letís stay in touch...😀
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:30 AM   #49
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I work seasonal part time at the local cotton gin and use their truck scale for getting all my weights. My 16' Laredo 265SRL has a listed dry pin weight of 1260#. So I unhitched with the dolly jacks just off of the scale deck and got a forklift, drove it onto the scale deck, got the weight on it and then lifted the front at the pin. I was already pretty much loaded out to travel and a half tank of water. Black and gray tanks empty. I got a pin weight of 1468#. On this wagon with the rear kitchen and pantry all of the heavy supplys are loaded back of the axles. This works out pretty well for me.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:35 AM   #50
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great message thread, I underestimated pin weight and decided to upgrade truck to f350. Here are actuals vs 'spec'

2017 Keystoe Sprinter, 5th Wheel;
269FWRLS

spec actual

GVWR spec= 11600 actual=10340 lbs measured
GAWR spec= 5080 actual= 4050lbs avg, each axle
Kingpin actual is based on calculation: 2240 lbs (total-axle weight)
Kingpin = 22% % of total wt.
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Old 02-24-2020, 03:34 PM   #51
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Pin Weight 3620 lbs on my Montana 3950BR loaded out and headed to Florida.

22.5% on the pin.

Trailer axle weight 12480
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Old 02-25-2020, 11:08 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger View Post
I have the same TV as the OP except mine is a Tradesman. My 5er GVWR is 1300 lbs. less. Below are the numbers from a recent trip with the pin weight. I put "everything" I thought I would need in the trailer (also not a full timer) and still had around 600 lbs. of available cargo. If the OP does not hit max on the cargo in the trailer he should be fine. Hope the numbers help.
I will add a different problem. While recently camped the fifth wheel trailer across from my site was a 36 ft. Solitude (why do I always see the word "slideout" when I read that?) anyway,talking to the owner he said that he was full timing adding he weighed the trailer and was a couple hundred pounds overweight but then he showed me the storage space (in the pass through and rear compartments) he had available. He had almost nothing in either compartment. He had removed the "slide tray" from the rear compartment (yes,that's how big it was) to loose about 100 lbs. he figured he could probably load up on paper towels and toilet paper to fill the void in storage. Evidently the trailer was built on 14.5K rated axles but is capable of a 16.5K load. Huhh? About $6000 to make it right (his estimate). Why would they build a trailer with so much storage that can't haul any cargo?
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TRUCK (With full fuel and all equipment/cargo & passengers)
2018 RAM 3500 4x4 CC SB SRW 3.42
Aisin Trans HO CTD/ 5K Air Lift bags
16K Curt Slider Hitch / Door Sticker payload:3822

GVWR: 11700 Max
GAWR: Front 6000 Max Rear 7000 Max
GVWR: 25300 Max
Max Trailer: 17050 Max

TRAILER
2017 Keystone Laredo 350 FB (All tanks dry,full propane tanks,tools, equipment,clothes,some groceries ect...)
Dry Weight: 11230
Cargo Capacity: 1770 Max
GVWR: 13000 Max
Hitch: 2085

SCALE WEIGHTS
TV: (No trailer) Front 5100
Rear 3960= 9060

TV and 5er: Front: 5200
Rear: 6220= 11420
Subtract TV (No trailer) : 9060=2360-Pin Weight

Trailer Axel: 10020
Add Pin: 2360=12380 5er GCWR

GCWR 12380 Ė 11230 (Dry Trailer) = 1150 Cargo

GCWR: (Connected) Truck 11420 + 10020= 21440

Laredo Tugger, OP here...Thanks! Your situation seems very close to mine. Certainly, the specs on the TV's are pretty much identical! I appreciate those "real world" numbers.

So if I were to max the 294's CCC, and run at trailer GVWR, I would pull a tounge weight of juuussst under 3000lb, which puts me right at the red line for truck GVWR... (11680 out of 11700), and that's with only me and the DW. I know that's the way you're supposed to figure the numbers, but I'm confident that I can stay a good deal below trailer GVWR.

I've pulled a Heartland 5er and a Cougar over 10 years, loaded those rigs for long trips and never gone over 1500lb of cargo, no matter how hard I tried! (course they both had lower CCC's, and because of our lives, we never camp for more than a month). So the numbers look good. Last question...

Pulling your 12380# rig with your SRW Tradesman, how's it feel? Is it a comfortable, confident pull?

We hit the Oregon coast frequently, lots of up and down and winding around. Will my SRW RAM handle it in your opinion?

Again, thanks for sharing your stats!
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:11 PM   #53
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tomkat2.
First answer to your first question. Yes, my Tradesman provides a confident and comfortable pull for my trailer. I feel fortunate to have found a large enough fifth wheel that myself and DW are comfortable in and still be able to tow it under the max weights (with my TV). Looking at other trailers mine does not have the CCC of others, but I do not "full time" and have loaded the trailer with most everything I think we will need and (like you) I am still not at the max cargo weights.
As for the TV, I pretty much circled my wagons around the RAM product and found it a few hours away at a dealership. They said the previous owner wanted a truck with more bells and whistles, a Laramie I guess. Anyway I did not want a dually and when my TV showed it had the Aisin trans, I was sold. I previously pulled my 5er with a F250 gasser. Difference in towing with the RAM was,well let's just say "significantly better". I will add the greatest compliment of all was from the DW while towing home from a cross country trip and climbing a long grade in AZ she said " I'm so glad you got this truck".
That was enough for me.
Your second question, as you stated you usually travel with around 1500 lbs. of cargo, that's less than half of the max for your trailer. If you stay around that weight for cargo in your new trailer you will be fine and your truck will tow the grades and turns with no problem.
Good luck and happy trails.........
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Old 02-25-2020, 09:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by tomkat2 View Post
Laredo Tugger, OP here...Thanks! Your situation seems very close to mine. Certainly, the specs on the TV's are pretty much identical! I appreciate those "real world" numbers.

So if I were to max the 294's CCC, and run at trailer GVWR, I would pull a tounge weight of juuussst under 3000lb, which puts me right at the red line for truck GVWR... (11680 out of 11700), and that's with only me and the DW. I know that's the way you're supposed to figure the numbers, but I'm confident that I can stay a good deal below trailer GVWR.

I've pulled a Heartland 5er and a Cougar over 10 years, loaded those rigs for long trips and never gone over 1500lb of cargo, no matter how hard I tried! (course they both had lower CCC's, and because of our lives, we never camp for more than a month). So the numbers look good. Last question...

Pulling your 12380# rig with your SRW Tradesman, how's it feel? Is it a comfortable, confident pull?

We hit the Oregon coast frequently, lots of up and down and winding around. Will my SRW RAM handle it in your opinion?

Again, thanks for sharing your stats!
TomKat2, Laredo Tugger gave you some good real world pin weight. Your case is exactly why looking for a replacement for our 2001 Ram 2500 CTD, I was looking at a post 2013 Ram 3500 DRW.
With the 2001 Ram 2500 we were 1,700# over the 8,800# GVWR, but within axle and tires. Our 2005 Keystone Copper Canyon 293FWSLS has a GVWR of 12,360# and we use every once of that, and our pin is 2,700# or 22%.

If we would have bought a SRW 3500, it would have been a LB with a 12,300# GVWR, with about 4,000# payload. seems like a lot of capacity.
Well the 2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW HO, Aisin we ended up getting used had a payload sticker of 5,411#, after I installed my in bed tool box with tools, Hitch with adapter, DW, Me, our Beagle, and full fuel and DEF we scaled 9,950#, leaving us 4,050# for pin. This means that people, hitch and tool box added 1,361# to the TV, reducing the payload available. If this had been a 3500 SRW LB with a 12,300# I would have had about 1,400# less payload, so I would been down to 2,650# of available payload to carry a 2,700# pin.

I will add that with the 2001 2500, driving up and down 101, and hwy 26, 6, 47 and 18 to get to the coast, still felt stable, but the DRW feels even better.

Key specifications - 294RL FIFTH WHEEL

Shipping Weight 11,035
Carrying Capacity 3,265
Hitch 2,300
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Old 02-26-2020, 09:51 AM   #55
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Here is another question. Someone mentioned they have a rear kitchen floor plan. How does the floor plan of a unit effect the pin weight? Front lounge or kitchen are some alternatives to having the most common bedroom up front or an additional bath for the bedroom
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Old 02-26-2020, 11:25 AM   #56
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Hi Mike! Rear Kitchen floor plans can help pin weight alot! For one, getting the refrigerator well behind the axles puts more weight to the rear which can lighten the pin weight. Rear kitchens might often place a grey tank behind the axles too. That can help balance the weight to the rear as well. Front kitchens can do just the opposite, especially if your FK is packing a dishwasher...

The best way to reduce pin weight though, IMHO is to get a north/south bed. Even if it has a wardrobe slide, it will generally be lighter than a larger bed slide with a king bed in it...

The Montana 294 that I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on has a higher pin weight (2300 dry) than you might normally find in a 11000# unit. It packs a windshield plus the upper deck bedroom slide is larger than normal, as it extends into the bathroom with extra storage/and W/D prep. Some might suggest that the windshield adds alot of weight...but so would the DW packing what would otherwise be a cavernous closet over the pin! It's all relative
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Old 02-26-2020, 12:06 PM   #57
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TomKat,
I am looking @units around 20K but I am also looking at a new TV that is gonna be a dually. New Horizons places the generator behind the axles to compensate for a lower pin weight I found this to be interesting.
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Old 02-26-2020, 02:35 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by ADQ K9 View Post
Here is another question. Someone mentioned they have a rear kitchen floor plan. How does the floor plan of a unit effect the pin weight? Front lounge or kitchen are some alternatives to having the most common bedroom up front or an additional bath for the bedroom
I may have mentioned our rear kitchen, but at 12,500# and 2,700# pin we are still near 22% pin with a small basement. A bigger part is axle placement from pin. Ours seem to be slightly further back, we also have a full 8í wide closet in the bedroom directly over the pin.
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Old 02-26-2020, 06:56 PM   #59
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TomKat,
I am looking @units around 20K but I am also looking at a new TV that is gonna be a dually. New Horizons places the generator behind the axles to compensate for a lower pin weight I found this to be interesting.
If looking at NHs not sure a 1ton dually is enough truck, regardless of brand. When we were looking at them most had a dry weight near 20k.
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Old 02-27-2020, 05:52 AM   #60
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If looking at NHs not sure a 1ton dually is enough truck, regardless of brand. When we were looking at them most had a dry weight near 20k.
The New Horizons I have seen out and about had at least an MDT pulling it. A toy hauler version I saw up in the MI UP had the Volvo MDT/HDT and had a Jeep Wrangler toad. I didn't get a chance to ask them about weights.
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