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02-16-2020, 06:22 PM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Livermore, Ca.
Posts: 9
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Real World Pin Weights
Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!
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02-16-2020, 06:32 PM
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#2
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Gone Traveling
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Frostbite Falls
Posts: 325
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My 331 goes about 2900 but I added a W/D. It is advertised at 2300 empty like yours.
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02-16-2020, 06:42 PM
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#3
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,997
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As a "rule of thumb" I've found (as you said) pin weights vary from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. One "generalized rule" that I found to be fairly accurate for "making educated guesses" is to take the "empty pin weight percentage" and then use that number to calculate the estimated pin weight at the cargo load you plan to add to the trailer.
In other words, if the trailer specs indicate a shipping weight of 12,000 pounds with a pin weight of 1800 pounds (15% pin weight) then if you're planning to add 1500 pounds of cargo, 15% of that will likely be "on the pin"...
And, if the trailer weighs 12,000 pounds and the pin weighs 2640 pounds (22% pin weight) then if you add 1500 pounds of cargo, then 22% of that will be "on the pin"
While it doesn't always work out that way, generally, you can pretty well estimate the loaded pin weight percentage by using the empty pin weight percentage as a "fairly accurate starting point".
Now, if you're going to add "big pound items" to the nose of the trailer (washer and dryer or generator or "big solar system with multiple batteries) this method won't even be close.....
__________________
John
2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
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02-16-2020, 07:26 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Weight & Balance
I don’t know what a “dry pin weight is”. We never had it weighed before we loaded it. The trailer manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight is for the trailers GVWR. If you work real hard when balance your cargo loads you can attain that recommendation. However, fivers are much harder to get an even balance because of all the cargo space forward of the axles. Our trailer had a 2100# manufacturer recommended tongue weight that was about 15%, a ball park figure. To keep our actual tongue weight at or below 2700# we had to carry our books, shoes and seasonal clothing in storage areas aft of the axles. The area for our optional washer/dryer was just forward of the forward axle. Almost all newer Keystone fivers W/D options are above the trailer’s pin making it more difficult to balance cargo loads.
When it comes to balancing your cargo loads you’re going to find it’s a hands on task that will require numerous trips to the scales to work-out.
Remember, it’s a fulcrum and simple math will help work it out.
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...1&d=1581909868
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02-16-2020, 08:01 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
I don’t know what a “dry pin weight is”. We never had it weighed before we loaded it. The trailer manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight is for the trailers GVWR. If you work real hard when balance your cargo loads you can attain that recommendation. However, fivers are much harder to get an even balance because of all the cargo space forward of the axles. Our trailer had a 2100# manufacturer recommended tongue weight that was about 15%, a ball park figure. To keep our actual tongue weight at or below 2700# we had to carry our books, shoes and seasonal clothing in storage areas aft of the axles. The area for our optional washer/dryer was just forward of the forward axle. Almost all newer Keystone fivers W/D options are above the trailer’s pin making it more difficult to balance cargo loads.
When it comes to balancing your cargo loads you’re going to find it’s a hands on task that will require numerous trips to the scales to work-out.
Remember, it’s a fulcrum and simple math will help work it out.
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...1&d=1581909868
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CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, runn as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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02-16-2020, 08:33 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Mechanicsville
Posts: 478
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My trailer lists a pin weight and it is the weight empty from the factory. I would never run my pin weight at that number. You need about 20% of the gross on the pin for a good handling balance. 15% IMHO is to light on the pin. You'll likely see more chucking and less stable handling.
Trailers in general handle better with forward bias weight up to of course overloading the tv, which you don't want to do.
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02-17-2020, 02:34 AM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Taylors, SC
Posts: 3,031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, run as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
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FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 - On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.
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02-17-2020, 05:47 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo
CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, runn as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan
FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 - On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.
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What that section address that at what should be the Minimum pin weight the Axles and tires need to have the capacity to carry the remainder of the GVWR. It isn't a expected pin at GVWR.
Let's look at the OPs 5er
Key specifications - 294RL FIFTH WHEEL
Shipping Weight 11,035
Carrying Capacity 3,265
Hitch 2,300
Length 34' 0"
Height 13' 4"
With a 2,300# dry pin and 11,035# Dry weight is 21% a normal pin weight percentage.
To me at GVWR of 14,300# one would expect a pin weight of at least 3,000#, it is not going to remain at 2,300#.
If you assume the 2,300# pin is expected at GVWR then it would be 16% which is too lite to pull smoothly.
We have a pin weight advantage with our 2005 Copper Canyon as it is rear kitchen, but even with that we have a 2,700# pin at a total 5er weight of 12,500# is 21.6%, likely due to the small basement in our unit also.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
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02-16-2020, 07:30 PM
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#9
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkat2
Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!
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I would be hesitant, but that's me. I have a 2019 Ram 3500 CC Laramie 6.4 4.10. The payload should be more than yours. I am buying a HC 331 RL with similar numbers to what you are posting and I'm not in the "comfortable zone". With a diesel I'm not sure you can get there. I see you are trying to figure "running light" which is always a bad idea. Look at the gvw, figure 20% of the pin plus 10% safety cushion; that will give you some leeway. I'm not a full timer either and don't carry 1500 in my trailer....but I certainly do if I combine what's in the bed of the truck plus what's in the trailer. Don't "look" for the "rosy" numbers but rather the "oh crap" numbers and adjust accordingly....especially since you haven't made the purchase.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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02-17-2020, 08:36 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Or
Posts: 172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough
I would be hesitant, but that's me. I have a 2019 Ram 3500 CC Laramie 6.4 4.10. The payload should be more than yours. I am buying a HC 331 RL with similar numbers to what you are posting and I'm not in the "comfortable zone". With a diesel I'm not sure you can get there. I see you are trying to figure "running light" which is always a bad idea. Look at the gvw, figure 20% of the pin plus 10% safety cushion; that will give you some leeway. I'm not a full timer either and don't carry 1500 in my trailer....but I certainly do if I combine what's in the bed of the truck plus what's in the trailer. Don't "look" for the "rosy" numbers but rather the "oh crap" numbers and adjust accordingly....especially since you haven't made the purchase.
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Payloads are almost identical for the 6.4/6.7 SRW CC long bed 3500.
https://www.tfltruck.com/wp-content/...wing-chart.pdf
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02-17-2020, 02:23 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
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Our first fifth wheel was a Cougar. Dry weights were listed at 9995 and 2200. The actual ready to camp weights were 12000 and 2580 which equals 21.5%. Our current Grand Design dry weights were listed at 13300 and 2700 in the brochure but came from the factory at 13850. Ready to camp weight is 16000 and 3520 which equals 22% I suppose you could keep your cargo at 1500, we are not full time and seem to average more like +/-2000. Keystone lists your dry weight at 11000. If you add 2000 and use 22% you're at 2860. You'll find the majority of the weight is carried by the rear axle. The front axle will probably only go up 100 lbs max. Keep in mind every trip will vary slightly. Sometimes I have more fresh water, firewood, or maybe portable generators.
__________________
2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
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02-17-2020, 09:26 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: grand rapids
Posts: 596
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don't over think this. your one ton will pull just fine.
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02-19-2020, 06:44 PM
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#13
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Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Camden
Posts: 25
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I guess I don't understand the payload worry so much. I have a 2015 Ram 2500 CC with the 6.7. My payload is 2360 by the door sticker. Here is the thing. The front axle has a 6000lb rating. The back axle has a 6000 at the minimum rating. The back axle is the exact same as SRW 3500 which has a 7000 at the minimum rating. The only difference is the 2500 has coil springs and the 3500 has leaf. Also understand these same axles are rated up to 9750 in certain trims. The frames, trans, and engines (diesel) are the same. Now back to the axles. Your total axle rating is 12000 to 12500.. Since the front will not change much you have to know what's on the rear. I have a 2019 367BH that is 14100 loaded and has a loaded pin weight of 2840. I am 5740 on the rear loaded. Well within the limits. Tires and rims are your limiting factors. Little off topic but I am using an Anderson hitch for this and love it.
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02-19-2020, 07:35 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lagrange OH
Posts: 446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillet92
I guess I don't understand the payload worry so much. I have a 2015 Ram 2500 CC with the 6.7. My payload is 2360 by the door sticker. Here is the thing. The front axle has a 6000lb rating. The back axle has a 6000 at the minimum rating. The back axle is the exact same as SRW 3500 which has a 7000 at the minimum rating. The only difference is the 2500 has coil springs and the 3500 has leaf. Also understand these same axles are rated up to 9750 in certain trims. The frames, trans, and engines (diesel) are the same. Now back to the axles. Your total axle rating is 12000 to 12500.. Since the front will not change much you have to know what's on the rear. I have a 2019 367BH that is 14100 loaded and has a loaded pin weight of 2840. I am 5740 on the rear loaded. Well within the limits. Tires and rims are your limiting factors. Little off topic but I am using an Anderson hitch for this and love it.
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Sorry but you can't had the axles together to get the total. Doesn't work that way. My tires are rated for 4080 pounds each. So does that mean I can 16320 pounds? The chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Can't tell you why Dodge decided to cap it at 6000. Sorry , I know I'm being sarcastic and honestly I don't care if you pull it or not. but I do have a serious question. If you know the axle ratings so well then why didn't you just buy the 3500?
__________________
2017 Ford F350
2015 Cougar 337FLS
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02-20-2020, 02:23 PM
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#15
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Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Camden
Posts: 25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry337
Sorry but you can't had the axles together to get the total. Doesn't work that way. My tires are rated for 4080 pounds each. So does that mean I can 16320 pounds? The chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Can't tell you why Dodge decided to cap it at 6000. Sorry , I know I'm being sarcastic and honestly I don't care if you pull it or not. but I do have a serious question. If you know the axle ratings so well then why didn't you just buy the 3500?
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My tires are rated at 3640 my rear axle even if I go by the de-rated factory number is still over what I am loaded at. The frames, trans, engine are all the same as a SRW 3500 which has a 2700 higher GVWR. The only difference being the rear leaf springs. Why pay more for a rougher ride.
As for why I did not get a 3500. You answered the question when you said if I already know all the axle ratings. Because I do is why I opted for a 2500 that rides great and I got at a steal with less than 8000 miles. I saved 16000 off the new price for a truck that was drove for less than a year by the original owner.
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02-20-2020, 02:38 PM
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#16
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Site Team
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 11,752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skillet92
My tires are rated at 3640 my rear axle even if I go by the de-rated factory number is still over what I am loaded at. The frames, trans, engine are all the same as a SRW 3500 which has a 2700 higher GVWR. The only difference being the rear leaf springs. Why pay more for a rougher ride.
As for why I did not get a 3500. You answered the question when you said if I already know all the axle ratings. Because I do is why I opted for a 2500 that rides great and I got at a steal with less than 8000 miles. I saved 16000 off the new price for a truck that was drove for less than a year by the original owner.
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This is the sort of thinking that PI attorney's love to hear about, if their client is the plaintiff and you are the defendant .
__________________
Marshall
2012 Laredo 303 TG
2010 F250 LT Super Cab, long bed, 4X4, 6.4 Turbo Diesel
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02-19-2020, 06:51 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germantown, TN
Posts: 6,332
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Looks like you’ve already figured out that a tricked out 1500 will certainly do the same as a 3500. No problem! Now help me get my tongue out of my cheek....
__________________
Jim in Memphis, Wife of 51 years is Brenda
2019 F450 6.7 Powerstroke
2018 Mobile Suites 40RSSA
2021 40' Jayco Eagle
2001 Road king w/matching Harley sidecar
2021 Yamaha X2 Wolverine 1000
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02-19-2020, 07:18 PM
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#18
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Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Camden
Posts: 25
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No I just understand axle weights and actually real world numbers. Maybe you can explain why a SRW 3500 with the same axle has a 1000 more, according to the factory, load rating than a 2500. I wish I could have found a 1500 with a 17500 tow rating. I would have saved myself a lot of money.
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02-19-2020, 07:41 PM
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#19
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,692
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Most folks understand the limits placed on a truck by the manufacturer...the door placard. It stops there. We can all add plastic bump stops, Monroe shocks, look at another truck's springs, envision "mine being like that"....the sticker IS what it is. It wasn't placed there as a suggestion...it says "MUST not exceed"...that seems pretty explicit to me. To some, not so much...sort of like the "one way sign" that says don't go this way...but then again....one can do what they want with whatever consequence that comes along. Trying to understand/interpret manufacturer design factors, and not have any understanding, then perpetuate your belief without validation from the manufacturer is misleading at best IMO.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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02-19-2020, 08:30 PM
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#20
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,997
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Skillet92,
Maybe that 3500 has helium in the tires and the 2500 has nitrogen in the tires. Enough helium could (probably wouldn't but could) lift the truck enough to give it that extra axle rating ????
If you read the owner's manual, it states (not in these exact words) that ALL the rating limitations must be followed, not "just the ones that don't put you over the rating"... It's not a "pick two/ignore one" checkerboard....
__________________
John
2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
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