Battery relocation

[2011 keystone]

Is there any reason that I could not move the battery from the tongue to the front storage compartment.

[hankaye]

2011 keystone, Howdy;

Yes, it needs to breath. Batteries off gas Hydrogen gas and it is very explosive when allowed to accumulate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

hydrogen is what allowed the heindenburg to fly.

hankaye

[Bob Landry]

The battery charging/hydrogen gas thing is hyped almost as much as global warming. It is true that hydrogen is a very volatile gas. It is also true that when batteries are being overcharged, they give off hydrogen gas, However, the probability of a battery emitting enough ppm of hydrogen to cause an explosion is minimal to none. There are many marine applications where wet batteries are located under settees and under bunks with no venting other than the loose fitting tops on battery boxes, and in the 15 years that I have been in the marine industry, I have never heard of a hydrogen based explosion happening. Class B vans have their batteries installed inside. Where else are they going to ride?
From a close colleague and an ex submarine sailor, and those guys wrote the book on deep cycle battery charging, you would have to have dozens of batteries in a small closed space, all overcharging and gassing to emit enough of a hydrogen concentration to create an explosive environment.
That said, there have been hundreds of posts pertaining to this and no one is going to change anyone else's perception of the dangers of hydrogen gas, either real or percieved, so I suppose it will continue to generate a lot of campfire conversation.

PS. If anyone has knowledge of a hydrogen explosion that actually happened, please post a link to it.

[JRTJH]

There is no reason why you couldn't move the battery from the tongue to the front storage compartment. There, it would be warmer, probably work better in cold weather, be less visible for theft, protected better from the elements.

There is a concern, however. The battery, if stored in the front compartment would essentially be INSIDE the trailer. During charging, it produces hydrogen gas which is explosive and could cause a fire or worse. If you do decide to relocate it there, you'd need to get a leak proof battery storage box (not the kind sold at WalMart) and vent it through the floor and out the side wall of the trailer. That way, air could come in from the bottom and carry the hydrogen out the side of the trailer. Hydrogen is lighter than air and rises, so the outlet needs to be higher than the battery box. Don't forget, in order to get circulation in the battery box, you need to vent the bottom of the box through the floor of the trailer to the outside. A possible option may be to mount the battery box off the floor and vent the bottom to the side of the trailer also, but that would be difficult to do without building an elevated stand for the box. Bottom line: If you do move it, you have to enclose it in an airtight box and vent the box to the outside.

For clarity, in the last line, when I say "airtight box" what I mean is a box that is sealed so that no gasses from the battery can escape the box inside the trailer. On mine, the box is vented under the trailer and also vented out the side of the trailer. Where the battery cables enter the box, they are sealed with closed cell foam as is the flange between the top and bottom halves of the battery box.

I know this sounds like OVERKILL and it probably is, but I am reporting how Keystone installed my battery box and how I installed the second one both of which now sit side by side in my front storage compartment.

[Festus2]

John:
Not sure where in your 5th wheel your batteries are located, but in mine they are situated in the very front storage compartment - that area where the landing jacks are situated. I have two 6v batteries that are housed in a battery box that has a removable top with an attached vent hose that exits to the front/exterior of the storage compartment. This dual battery box does not have any holes on the bottom but does have voids where the wires to and from the batteries are. The battery case is certainly not airtight but rather vented on top and with holes on the sides to allow for wiring.
In your post you mentioned that you "need to vent the bottom of the box through the floor of the trailer" to allow circulation of air within the battery box. If you are talking about a "leakproof" and airtight battery box, how would this be possible?
I have no vents in the bottom of my battery box and there seems to be enough "holes" in the box itself where the wiring enters/exits to allow for adequate circulation.
Not sure how you can have an "airtight box" and; at the same time, allow for both the wiring and the venting to the outside. ???
While not dismissing the dangers of the hydrogen gas emitted by batteries, I also am of the opinion that it may be overstated. As a former boater, I have had some experience with large batteries and have lived in a separate but very close area to where we had a couple of 8D Cat batteries and were not as concerned about emissions from the batteries as we were about gasoline fumes. But we are talking about two different things here - I digress.
I think the key thing here is to make sure that the batteries are in an approved battery container, are properly secured and that the box is vented somehow to the outside.

[JRTJH]

Festus,

I agree venting to the outside is the big issue. I think that if we had access to the RVIA standards, it mandates venting, so to comply, Keystone follows guidelines. Now, my question would be, if we violate that standard and our insurance company finds out after an accident, could (or would) they refuse to pay the claim based on that???? I don't want to be the test case <G>

Now, to answer your question regarding the bottom vent. On my battery box that came installed from Keystone, there are two parts, a top and bottom. Both of them interlock together and have about 8 or 10 bolts holding the halves together. There are two small 1/2" holes in the side, one for the pos and one for the neg cable. These holes and the entire flange where the box halves join is lined with closed cell foam tape. The box halves are identical (I suppose like the top of your box) and the top is connected to a 1 1/2" flex hose which is joined to a circular vent near the top of my front compartment. The bottom of the box has an identical "hose connection" and it is inserted into a 1 1/2" hole cut in the metal floor of my front compartment. When I installed the second battery box, what I ordered and received from Keystone was the identical assembly, two of the same box halves. I used a hole saw, cut a matching hole in the metal floor, set the bottom half in that hole and after installing the battery and wiring it through the small holes, put the top on and joined it with the other vent hose at a homemade "T" fitting.

Essentially, both my original box installed by Keystone and my installed box are vented from the bottom, through the box and out the top. I suppose that gives some method of air circulation to help vent hydrogen buildup. When I installed my second box, I followed "EXACTLY" what Keystone did on the first. When reading your explanation of your box being a "plain bottom" I wondered if maybe Keystone made an error on installation, but then, when I ordered a box, I got the same thing they installed originally.... My only complaint is that it is a BEAR to check battery levels with all those screws, I've left about half them out the last few times I've checked.

I also believe that hydrogen is much more feared than it really needs to be, at least in my belief, but a neighbor burned his house down several years ago while charging the battery in his fishing boat. He hooked up the charger, apparently one of the cells was nearly dry, when the battery started producing hydrogen in that "dry cell" it was enough to cause an internal explosion, that blew the cap off the battery and the gas fumes in the well exploded and caught the garage on fire, the flames spread before they could get it extinguished. That caused me to not want anything to do with batteries in a closed environment. In my trailer, the propane tanks sit right beside the batteries. That's enough to warrant caution for me

I wonder what changed in how Keystone installs battery boxes from your model year to mine?

Anyone with a 2010 or 2011 fifth wheel, how is the bottom of your battery box configured?

John

[kingji]

Man, I might be sleeping right above a bomb. My two 30lb propane tanks set about 18 inches away from three 100amph batteries. I feel comfortable with the set-up though. My batteries are Power Sonic AGC's (sealed) and I always check for leaks around the valves of the bottles. I usually only open one bottle at a time and I make sure the valve that is opened is fully opened against the back seat. The compartment is semi sealed with a few holes for ventilation.

JK

[SteveC7010]

My primary worry would be a simple spill of the battery acid, regardless of cause. Your interior compartments just aren't designed to contain that.

Secondly, I like my batteries where they are rapidly accessible in case of an electric problem. On the TT, they were on the A-frame as usual. In the new fifth wheeler, they're in a vented battery box right inside the well ventilated and easy-to-access front utility compartment. If there is a short or other electrical issue at the battery, it is outside the living compartment and reachable.

I also like the idea that the batteries remain in the place they are expected to be in case the fire department or other rescuer needs to reach them for any reason.

On a boat, while not particularly well ventilated, if the battery is under a seat, again it is easily and rapidly reached by removing the seat bottom.

As I think about it, I find more reasons to leave the batteries in their traditional locations. I don't find any reasons to relocate them to an interior compartment of an RV. Must my $0.02.

[2011 keystone]

Lots of good points. my main reason for the move was the thought of theft. so does anyone no of a lockable battery box that can be bolted to the a frame.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by 2011 keystone

Lots of good points. my main reason for the move was the thought of theft. so does anyone no of a lockable battery box that can be bolted to the a frame.

Google is your friend.....

http://www.b-drvbatterylock.com/
http://www.americanrvcompany.com/Cur...V_p_10229.html

Dozens more out there.

[mhs4771]

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

They do sell a vented battery box, but it has to be installed by drilling a hole in exterior wall of the compartment and hooking up the vent hose to it.



http://www.adventurerv.net/vented-ba...te-p-4085.html

I bought a second one at a Priority RV outlet, and I am quite certain that CW offers them. PPL MotorHomes has them, too.

[JRTJH]

The description on the box Steve listed is:

Battery boxes inlude ventalation kit (wall connector, outside vent and 9" hose) for inside installations. The bottom also has a vent hole. Meets RVIA Code. Internal dimensions: 7" W x 13-1/2" H x 10" D. Outside vent: 4-1/2" diameter. Priced each

This one costs about twice what the Keystone box costs. I think I paid $14.88 for mine and it was shipped from Keystone to the dealer in another RV so no additional charge for shipping.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

This is all very interesting,especially since CW just threw a battery info my front utility compartment without a box. I asked about a box so they gave me one, but there is nothing or anyway to connect a vent hose to said box. I guess we're living on the edge.

When you bought your trailer and found the box missing, was there a round vent similar to the one shown in Steve's link that had already been installed in the front wall of your trailer and is there a 2" hole in the compartment floor under the battery? If so, then probably the assembly was installed when it left Keystone and wasn't there when it was delivered.

[Festus2]

John:
To further clarify my battery box ........ Initially when I purchased the 5th, it came with a single battery which was contained in a box with a 2" hole in the bottom which sat directly over a 2" pre-drilled hole in the compartment floor.
Since I did not want a single, 12 V battery I had it switched out for 2 6v which required a bigger box. This new box did not come with any pre-drilled hole in the bottom although I could have drilled out one myself but chose not to.
It was during the course of this battery modification/upgrade that the single battery box was changed and replaced with a new one that held 2 batteries. So I am not sure whether a battery box that is designed to hold 2 batteries comes with pre-drilled hole(s) in the bottom. Actually, I am not sure how much additional air would enter the box seeing as how there is a battery sitting over that hole and essentially blocking it.
It seems that Keystone assumes that there will be just 1 battery with a battery box that has a single hole in the bottom of it to fit over the pre-drilled hole that lines up with the hole in the battery box.
In any case, I am not about to drill any more holes in the battery box as I am sure there is adequate ventilation in that compartment coupled with the vented battery box cover.
My battery box is a moulded one-piece unit (with removable top) that is large enough to hold 2 6v batteries.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The description on the box Steve listed is:

Battery boxes inlude ventalation kit (wall connector, outside vent and 9" hose) for inside installations. The bottom also has a vent hole. Meets RVIA Code. Internal dimensions: 7" W x 13-1/2" H x 10" D. Outside vent: 4-1/2" diameter. Priced each

This one costs about twice what the Keystone box costs. I think I paid $14.88 for mine and it was shipped from Keystone to the dealer in another RV so no additional charge for shipping.

I only quoted that one because it came up nearly first on a google search, and it had a pic that was snaggable for the post. By no means am I recommending that anyone purchase the one I pointed at in my post. I used it because it came up first or nearly first and was a good visual example.

I think I paid about $16 over the counter for mine (exact same box with vent hose and fitting) at Priority RV (Alpin Haus) in Amsterdam, NY. They didn't stock them, but ordered it for me and it came in in less than a week.

Everyone is encouraged to do their own searching and find the best deal possible on items like this.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Festus2

John:
To further clarify my battery box ........ I am not sure how much additional air would enter the box seeing as how there is a battery sitting over that hole and essentially blocking it....
.....I am sure there is adequate ventilation in that compartment coupled with the vented battery box cover.

I agree with you, I don't think I'd start cutting holes in the bottom of a nonvented box either. At least with what you currently have, you can contain any leaking acid that might spill. Like you, I wonder just how much air flow there is past the battery bottom that sits over the hole essentially blocking airflow... If your front compartment is like mine (and I'm sure it's pretty close) then there are so many holes and so much air leakage, it's hard to imagine any vapors being able to linger for very long. With the boxes I have, it's either cut off the bottom flange and risk any leakage spilling onto the compartment floor or install them like I did. As I said before, IF we could get ahold of the RVIA standards, I'd really like to see what the "real requirement" is for battery venting. I've tried to get them and as far as I can get is to either buy them (must be a member of RVIA) or try to keep doing Google searches for bits and pieces.

John

[Camp I am]

I wonder if two vented boxes could share one common vent line? So if I doubled my batteries (2 vented boxes) I could just T into the existing vent line and not have to drill an additional hole in the trailer?

[Festus2]

I would think that you could utilize a single vent hose for your two separate batteries and their boxes by using a "T" as you described. This setup, while slightly different than mine, would accomplish the same thing. I have a single vent hose for two batteries in a single box --- you would end up with, by using a "T", a single hose for two batteries in two separate boxes. You shouldn't have to drill any extra holes.

[jje1960]

On our last TT I fabricated two brackets, one to relocate the existing battery and the other to add a battery. I'll try and find a picture to post, it worked out very well, the batteries were still outside, one on each side of the front hitch rails, just in front of the trailer body itself. This free'd up space for a flat plate that our 1k mitsubishi inverter was mounted on.