Wouldn't the circuit breaker trip?

[mikec557]

2020 Cougar 26RBSWE
Wouldn't the circuit breaker trip?

Here's what I think I know.

First clue is the refrigerator won't work on 120vac, at least not while plugged into the outlet behind the fridge, the outlet intended for it. But it does work on 120vac if plugged in elsewhere.

My $5 electrical tester (yellow with two amber and one red light) indicates that the outlet behind the fridge has the Hot and Ground reversed. Turns out every outlet on that circuit breaker reads the same. There's 4 outlets and one whip in the slide out, all on one circuit breaker labeled GEN. (I don't have a generator, nor is there anywhere you could have installed a generator.)

I visually checked the end of the whip in the slide out to see if wires were shorted to each other. They are not. That factory installed whip of 120vac is probably intended to feed a future outlet behind the two recliners, should the owner ever want to upgrade to theater seating.

The backs of the 4 outlets are going to be a bxxch to open. There are 4 separate spring loaded plastic fingers holding the back on each of them.

But for now, my question is, how is it possible that the Hot could be misplaced onto the Ground and neither this GEN circuit breaker trips, nor any other circuit breaker trips?

If the Hot is connected to the common Ground bar, wouldn't all circuits with their Neutral connected to the Ground bar short out?

Is my logic wrong here somewhere? If you were going to search for a mis-wired outlet, how would you approach this?

TIA
Mike

[flybouy]

From your description it sounds like you may have a string of “daisy chained” outlets on a gfi that’s miswired . Pull the gfi and look at the load side with the power off of course.

The "gen” is most likely short for general outlets not generator.

[bfam5]

I wonder if you have this situation.
https://youtu.be/0lrOjbDwvWQ

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by flybouy

From your description it sounds like you may have a string of “daisy chained” outlets on a gfi that’s miswired . Pull the gfi and look at the load side with the power off of course.

The "gen” is most likely short for general outlets not generator.

I assume they are daisy chained in away, but none of them are GFI. The 4 outlets and 1 whip are all on one circuit. The breaker panel is located about midway between the farthest forward and farthest rearward outlets.

If they were truly daisy chained, they would have "wasted" about 8ft+ of Romex or more to double back, say from the rear most outlet to go to the most forward outlets, going right past the breaker panel where the circuit began. I'm not saying they wouldn't do that, but if there was a way to make a junction box inaccessible it would save them on the wire and introduce a place to mis-wire hot and ground.

I think I have to start prying off the outlet backs, but we're on a trip and I don't really want to dig in until we'll be somewhere for awhile.

BTW, I didn't mention earlier, I also visually verified that the wires from the Romex do go to the proper locations. Hot to breaker, neutral to neutral buss bar, and ground to ground buss bar. I think the wires have to be crossed at an outlet (or unseen junction box like where the Romex connects to the stranded wire they run out to the slideout) or maybe shorted somehow in the wall or belly.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by bfam5

I wonder if you have this situation.
https://youtu.be/0lrOjbDwvWQ

Well that's fascinating. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think I'd have to have a load turned on somewhere for this to be the case. Which would mean there's more than the 4+1 outlets... that is, a 6th item on that circuit. I'll have to do some more investigating. We leave tomorrow morning for a campground in Pendleton Oregon. I'll see what I can discern while we're there.

Edit: that would also explain why no breaker trips when/if a hot wire was connected to the ground buss bar. And, I thought it would be tough to really cross wire an outlet, it would be easy to not get a good seating for one of the two neutral wires.

Thanks
Mike

[hankpage]

Does your unit have an outside fridge?? May be a GFIC outlet there or the load from the fridge itself??? JM2¢, Hank

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by hankpage

Does your unit have an outside fridge?? May be a GFIC outlet there or the load from the fridge itself??? JM2¢, Hank

Thanks Hank. As it turns out, there is an outside refrigerator (which we removed) and an outlet for it. But that's my work around. I made a short extension cord and plugged the inside refrigerator into that location. And that outlet has to be on a different circuit because I've been keeping the Gen circuit breaker off and the inside fridge is on.

[mikec557]

Finally got to where I can do further investigating...

After watching that YouTube in which a true open neutral is falsely reported as a Hot/Grd reverse, I decided to start back at the beginning.

I think I had the fridge plugged in when I tested the outlets before. This time I made sure that nothing was plugged into the 4 outlets. Yep, now the error is reported as an open neutral. When I plugged the TV into one of the 4 outlets, the error immediately changed to Hot/Grd cross. The TV drawing power took the place of the fan turning on in the video.

I feel better that the line worker probably made a bad neutral connection rather than confused a black wire for bare copper. Not that that changes what I have to do. I still need to crack open each outlet. While I will still try to test every connection in the outlet, I think I'll be looking for a bad neutral connection.

I don't know where they mated the Romex to the stranded wire whip for the slide out. I guess it has to be either in the inaccessible attic or in the underbelly. Here's to hoping the problem is in one of the outlets.

[flybouy]

The slide out 120v outlet feed is typically under the slide out. I'd go for the "easy" stuff first by pulling each outlet out and confirming connections.

[wiredgeorge]

To pull out a box, the screws holding the cover are meant to turn a half turn so the little plastic paddles that are spring loaded turn 90 degrees to vertical. There are probably no boxes; only the cover. It is also possible that wire(s) intended to be pressed into the blades on the outlet fixture are not inserted well. This is often the case with this type electrical outlet.

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

To pull out a box, the screws holding the cover are meant to turn a half turn so the little plastic paddles that are spring loaded turn 90 degrees to vertical. There are probably no boxes; only the cover. It is also possible that wire(s) intended to be pressed into the blades on the outlet fixture are not inserted well. This is often the case with this type electrical outlet.

I've changed every outlet in ours to a residential outlet, eliminating the blade type (in my industry it's called an IDC, or insulation displacement connection, think ribbon cables in electronics). Too many problems over time with them for that kind of power. BTDT with bad connections. Son-in-law had one go bad over the kitchen sink while using the coffee maker... guess what got hot faster... Took it out, opened it up and showed him what was wrong and why. He has yet to go check the others or ask for help doing it. Some just don't learn I suppose. ...Drag a horse to water... blah blah blah

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by mikec557

I feel better that the line worker probably made a bad neutral connection rather than confused a black wire for bare copper. Not that that changes what I have to do. I still need to crack open each outlet.

If every outlet is showing the same issue, the problem is almost certainly in the first bad or last good outlet starting at the breaker box. No reason to start with the ones at the end of the line, and once you have found the bad tap, you're done.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by Bill-2020

I've changed every outlet in ours to a residential outlet, eliminating the blade type (in my industry it's called an IDC, or insulation displacement connection, think ribbon cables in electronics). Too many problems over time with them for that kind of power. BTDT with bad connections. Son-in-law had one go bad over the kitchen sink while using the coffee maker... guess what got hot faster... Took it out, opened it up and showed him what was wrong and why. He has yet to go check the others or ask for help doing it. Some just don't learn I suppose. ...Drag a horse to water... blah blah blah

A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

I'm not the OP but hopefully he will give you an accurate answer. My guess is that outlets may be installed without the box. This is dangerous (and against code) as there are energized terminals exposed on the sides of the outlets.

[Roscommon48]

unless you know electrical you have a warranty, use it.

[JRTJH]

Lowe's has "old work shallow wall outlet boxes" which are 1.25" deep and will fit most wall spaces in travel trailers. There is an "issue" trying to dig out wiring and cut into the foam exterior walls, but I haven't seen but a couple of trailers that have outlets "in" exterior walls, most exterior wall outlets are "surface mount" not "cavity mount"....

https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-1-Ga...Box/1000976020

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

A residential outlet box is designed for a 2x4 stud frame and is too deep for a camper. How did you use residential outlets? This would certainly be a desired upgrade if I knew how you did it.

George,
The outlets inside my camper are not in the outer walls but rather in the cabinets or under the cabinets in the kitchen. The bunk outlets are on the rear wall where there is a cavity between the luan and the foam core wall that allows for trailer light wiring and romex to run through. As well as USB 12V outlet wiring.

I've added two outlets to the camper in areas where there should have been. One under the dinette seat, I tapped into the circuit for the outside outlet, ran the romex around to the under side of the seat where the bench and the camper wall meet, installed typical residential outlet box, the outlet and cover. The other one I installed is at the beginning of the bunks, near the floor. It too is in an interior wall that has ample room for a residential outlet box and outlet (what's behind that wall is the outdoor kitchen, water heater, etc.). As John said, there are old work boxes that work. In fact, the GFCI in the bathroom is sort of surface mount and sort of cavity mount. There's enough room in that interior wall where I removed the surface mount expanding ring and flush mounted the outlet. Keystone used the expanding ring to make it easy with less labor for them. I simply tucked the romex back and to the right making enough room for the GFCI to fit in a shallow box.

Woody - I'm not the OP of this thread, but as you'll see above there are proper boxes and everything is to up to code (and typically I go beyond what is required by code, example if you told me to use 14 AWG, I'd go with 12). The camper won't burn down because of my electrical work, if anything I've made it safer by getting rid of those IDC or blade type outlets that fail, been there and fixed that.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

I'm not the OP but hopefully he will give you an accurate answer. My guess is that outlets may be installed without the box. This is dangerous (and against code) as there are energized terminals exposed on the sides of the outlets.

Have you removed one of the outlets in your RV? This is pretty much how they ALL are. The RV use blades where the installer shoves the wire into the blade and it cuts the insulation and makes contact. The difference in a residential fitting is that the wires are screwed onto the sides of the outlet and installing takes a bit more work as the wire needs stripped, twisted into a loop and hung over the appropriate screw which then needs tightened. The RV style outlets are also used anywhere that outlets are mass installed like mobile homes. In mobile homes (with 2x4 or 2x6 studs) they are in a box and the box has little half turn wings to hold it tight in the sheet rock.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by Bill-2020

George,
The outlets inside my camper are not in the outer walls but rather in the cabinets or under the cabinets in the kitchen. The bunk outlets are on the rear wall where there is a cavity between the luan and the foam core wall that allows for trailer light wiring and romex to run through. As well as USB 12V outlet wiring.

I've added two outlets to the camper in areas where there should have been. One under the dinette seat, I tapped into the circuit for the outside outlet, ran the romex around to the under side of the seat where the bench and the camper wall meet, installed typical residential outlet box, the outlet and cover. The other one I installed is at the beginning of the bunks, near the floor. It too is in an interior wall that has ample room for a residential outlet box and outlet (what's behind that wall is the outdoor kitchen, water heater, etc.). As John said, there are old work boxes that work. In fact, the GFCI in the bathroom is sort of surface mount and sort of cavity mount. There's enough room in that interior wall where I removed the surface mount expanding ring and flush mounted the outlet. Keystone used the expanding ring to make it easy with less labor for them. I simply tucked the romex back and to the right making enough room for the GFCI to fit in a shallow box.

Woody - I'm not the OP of this thread, but as you'll see above there are proper boxes and everything is to up to code (and typically I go beyond what is required by code, example if you told me to use 14 AWG, I'd go with 12). The camper won't burn down because of my electrical work, if anything I've made it safer by getting rid of those IDC or blade type outlets that fail, been there and fixed that.

You are correct; I do recall now that I added an old work shallow box in my slide which had 1/2 turn wings to retain it. There was no foam or anything to make it difficult as only a wisp of fiberglass insulation was in there (memory?). Had plenty of wire because the outlet had originally been installed inside a booth bench. I reinstalled directly to the wall. I also installed a full depth old work box inside the microwave cabinet with residential outlet as my bladed RV outlet had shakey connections.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Bill2020 I also just added an outlet on a dedicated 20 amp circuit for an electric heater. I used a cut-in box as well on a cabinet that had plenty of room, meeting all codes, so I know it can be done. But from what I've seen many times when people replace existing outlets and they take shortcuts. I have no idea how the OP replaced his, im not critizing him, I just wanted to caution people to do it correctly.