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Old 04-13-2015, 06:28 PM   #1
tomsws6
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towing heavy

Alright weight police... Im looking for input. We recently looked at a toy hauler and the numbers look pretty good. I have a 06 f350 6.0 with air bags.. Right now I put the golf cart in the bed and our 323bhs on the hitch. Im tired of loading and unloading it in the truck and we just want more room. We got a good price on a 2015 Voltage V 4000. My wife loves it and it fits the bill. We only have 2 planned trips this yr and its all on flat land and semi local.. (Delaware/MD/VA peninsula)... I plan on upgrading to a 4500/450 next yr after the house is built(also another reason for the larger trailer as we are staying in in for awhile). Iv wanted to put f450 leaf springs in the back for awhile now and Im upgrading my front rotors to cross drilled regardless. What do you think... I"v heard im ok and then iv heard I would never do that. I know its a personal decision but just gathering data before we sign the bottom line so to speak.

Hitch weight - 3280
dry weight - 14506
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:41 PM   #2
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I'm NOT the weight police, but I am a retired LEO.

I'm not here to tell you what you can and cannot do, in the end its your choice to endanger yourself, your family and anyone on the road with you. Now to some simple facts:

Air bags do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Springs do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Cross drilled rotors do NOTHING to increase your braking abilities.

In the end, your rear axle weight rating is the limiting factor, and the number on the drivers door trumps all. You stated your probably going to upgrade to a 4500/450 in a year. Why not wait until you have enough truck?
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by chuckster57 View Post
I'm NOT the weight police, but I am a retired LEO.

I'm not here to tell you what you can and cannot do, in the end its your choice to endanger yourself, your family and anyone on the road with you. Now to some simple facts:

Air bags do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Springs do NOTHING to increase your GVWR. Cross drilled rotors do NOTHING to increase your braking abilities.

In the end, your rear axle weight rating is the limiting factor, and the number on the drivers door trumps all. You stated your probably going to upgrade to a 4500/450 in a year. Why not wait until you have enough truck?

No worries, like I said Im here for input... And correct me if Im wrong but crossdrilled rotors do increase breaking abilities and fading? The main reason we are upgrading is we are living in our camper now and unfortunately will be for another 6-8 months until our house gets built. So we are looking for more room and after the house is built we will travel a little more with the golf cart in the trailer.
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Old 04-13-2015, 06:56 PM   #4
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I have been wrenching (my own business) for a little over 40 yrs. And have yet to see any documented evidence that cross drilled rotors perform "better" than stock ones.

If your living in your trailer and it is going to be stationary while your house is being built, then the better option might be a delivery service. That way you can have your bigger house and get a bigger TV when your ready to start traveling again.

I'm sure there are people that will tell you drilled/slotted rotors are the way to go. I have lost count of the people who have had me install them, only to have me replace them with stock ones, at a shorter interval. And most of them don't tow.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:07 PM   #5
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The measurable amount of increased breaking achieved by cross drilled rotors can not be adequately demonstrated nor assured in any specific vehicle application because of varied associated components such as brake pads, calipers, master cylinder, brake fluid and other components at affect the overall breaking. The "best guess" is that it is "somewhat improved" but even then, there is no certification process to increase the GVW/breaking certifications/towing certifications based on any "user modification". There is a certification process to "build a bigger vehicle" but that process is costly and difficult to achieve. Usually, it's much cheaper to simply buy a bigger vehicle than to try to build one and have it certified. Without certification, you're hanging your future on the legal bet that nothing happens and nobody gets hurt. For most of us, it's simply not worth the risk.

Recently we had a thread asking that very question. You can find here: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21634

The title of that thread is: "Should We Advocate Towing Overloaded ???" and the overwhelming consensus of the forum responders was, NO we should not advocate towing overloaded.

So, I don't think you'll find the majority of the forum members suggesting that you "go for it" and I would urge you not to find solace in the one who says, "Sure, what the hell"......

If the numbers don't add up to being safe and if you're asking some "stranger on a forum" for advice on how to do it, then it's pretty clear that you already know the answer to your question.

What color new truck do you want?

Good Luck,
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:18 PM   #6
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I appreciate the response.. I really do. That is why I posted on here and honetsly Im not sure I would have much of an issue hauling it from the dealer to my house 10 miles away, hitting the cat scale on the way. Never say never though... I posted on here because there is so much info on the net, and of course its all true, but wanted to see how close I am or if anyone else has any experience with this kind of truck and weight.. Im actually checking out those other links now, and theres alot of good reading there.. So what would be the limit of my truck?
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:24 PM   #7
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As was pointed out by chuckster57, the addition of air bags, heavier leaf springs and a change of rotors from one type to another won't do anything to increase your truck's payload/capacity. The bags and springs may result in the rig sitting more level and provide a better ride but that's it.

Since you didn't provide much in the way of numbers, what numbers did you use that would make this possible set up "look pretty good". I would be interested in seeing what numbers you used in your calculations and how you "did the math" to arrive at that conclusion. Remember "it's the number on the driver's door that trumps all".
(The dry weight figure that I got from the Dutchmen website was 15104 not 14506 but that's a minor point since that number isn't all that critical).

If it turns out that your truck is overloaded, which it might well be after we see some of the other important missing figures, then it doesn't make much difference if you are driving your rig over flat land or semi-local. Regardless of where you go, the distance driven and over whatever terrain, it still could be overloaded. An overloaded rig being driven 50 miles is no different than one being driven 500.

At this point, the numbers certainly don't look as good to me as they look to you.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:29 PM   #8
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I'd say the GVW from the driver's door pillar minus the actual weight of the truck as weighed at a CAT scale. That will give you your "real payload". Then from there, figure your passengers, cargo you'll add, hitch (if not in the truck when weighed). What's left is your max pin weight. After determining your max pin weight, you can use your owner's manual to determine the GCWR for your model based on engine and axle gearing. Subtract your truck weight (with all cargo and passengers) from the GCWR and you'll have your maximum trailer weight. Armed with the maximum pin weight and the maximum trailer weight, you can then start looking for trailers that are under those figures.

Keep in mind that there was a significantly reduced payload on Ford SuperDuty trucks from 1999 through about 2009 or 2010.

If you're looking to buy a larger truck next year, the suggestion made by Chuckster57 to have your new trailer delivered to your site, live in it while building your house and when you're ready, you'll know the weights of the trailer, just find a truck that exceeds those weights.
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post

Since you didn't provide much in the way of numbers, what numbers did you use that would make this possible set up "look pretty good".

At this point, the numbers certainly don't look as good to me as they look to you.

Im sorry, what I meant by "look pretty good" was on the financial side.. And there is no argument from me about those mods increasing my capacity.. Its mainly for vehicle control which I believe is very important but I do agree on your other point about increasing... But you also said dry weight wasnt all that crucial??
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Old 04-13-2015, 07:54 PM   #10
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There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool.
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:07 PM   #11
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There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool.
Just like the Brembo brakes on my Mustang. An extra $350 for the "fancy red" calipers. They look "cool" during the day (when the sun is shining on them or when parked and the spokes don't cover them, but at night, you can't see them, and on a wet road ???? Might as well just stick your foot out the door and stop "Flintstone style"

For the most part, like you, I think it's a "plot to separate people from their money" more than it is any improvement in braking or safety.
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:07 PM   #12
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There are those who would argue that cross drilled rotors reduce the rotor's braking area or friction. If designed incorrectly, cracks can also emanate from the holes.

My opinion is that you'll spend the money and not recognize any perceptible difference in braking capability, but they look cool.
Definitely looking for functionality and not looks! Theres a calculator on one of those website. http://rvtowcheck.com/rvtc_calculator.html will this be semi accurate?
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:09 PM   #13
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Im sorry, what I meant by "look pretty good" was on the financial side.. And there is no argument from me about those mods increasing my capacity.. Its mainly for vehicle control which I believe is very important but I do agree on your other point about increasing... But you also said dry weight wasnt all that crucial??
tomsws6
The numbers that you need in your calculations are:
GVW of the truck, GCW (the combined weight of the truck and RV); The GVW of the RV; and the hitch weight. The dry weight is not included in these calculations.

The shipping weight aka dry weight ,aka empty weight of the RV is its weight without any cargo/supplies, no propane, no battery, nothing in the tanks, etc. That is one of the main reasons why the dry weight isn't all that critical because you will always add propane, battery, etc. The dry weight is essentially for information only -- a very rough guideline.

The truck should be taken to a weigh scale loaded as if you were going camping: all passengers, tank of gas, cargo in the bed and in the truck.
The sticker on the post is the weight of the truck as it came from the factory - no options, one 150 lb passenger.
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:28 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Just like the Brembo brakes on my Mustang. An extra $350 for the "fancy red" calipers. They look "cool" during the day (when the sun is shining on them or when parked and the spokes don't cover them, but at night, you can't see them, and on a wet road ???? Might as well just stick your foot out the door and stop "Flintstone style"

For the most part, like you, I think it's a "plot to separate people from their money" more than it is any improvement in braking or safety.
The difference realized is when you use bigger rotors, four or six piston calipers and convert rear drums to disc brakes like the Wilwoods (not drilled, but slotted fronts) on my El Camino.
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tomsws6 View Post
Definitely looking for functionality and not looks! Theres a calculator on one of those website. http://rvtowcheck.com/rvtc_calculator.html will this be semi accurate?
Other than saying using the calculator is a good thing, I'll let others comment on weight and payload.
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Old 04-13-2015, 08:46 PM   #16
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Very confusing...

Anyway heres what I found..

GCWR - 23500
GVWR - 11400
GVW - 6586

Im a slim 220
hitch - 150?

Anyway the calculator says
Max 5th Wheel Towing = 16364

Still trying to figure max pin weight.. as it only gives me a % of 25.. Is that 25% of max tow weight? That seems a little high at 4091pds.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/specs/200...pecifications/
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:03 PM   #17
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Is the vehicle weight you list your "scaled" weight or is that from the Ford specifications website? http://www.ford-trucks.com/specs/200...pecifications/

That site lists the weight of the F350 crewcab 6.5' bed 4x4 as 6586 (that is for the base XL truck with the 5.4L gas engine). The diesel engine adds significant weight as does the KR package. Your truck should be much closer to 7200-7300 pounds.

As for the percentage of total trailer weight to use as pin weight, if you divide the trailer dry pin weight by the total dry weight, that should give you a percentage. You can estimate that percentage will be pretty close as the trailer is loaded. Most of your "camping cargo" will be loaded on or forward of the axles (adding pin weight) and your "toys" behind the axle will offset that and usually bring the percentage back to close to the "shipping/dry pin percentage" (not to the actual pounds, but percentage).
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:22 PM   #18
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I didnt think it could come in a 5.4.. Weird ,but yes that was off the site. And were did you see that it is only the 5.4? Not saying your wrong but its driving me nuts that I cant find it on the page? lol btw I appreciate you guys staying up and learning me.
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Old 04-13-2015, 09:35 PM   #19
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All of the documentation in that chart is for the "base model" truck with the engine listed at "standard" or "base model"

If you go to that figure 6586 and track left to the first column (F350 SRW), then go up 2 boxes (right above F250) you'll see the note "BASE CURB WEIGHT"

If you consider that every option adds weight, there's no way a XL crewcab 4x4 with mechanical transfer case, mechanical windows and no carpet/padding will weigh the same as a KR or Platinum with all the extra bells and whistles. Those options add weight, Ford is trying to advertise "maximums" so they use the "lightest truck" to show the "biggest payload" and the "best towing performance"

It's called "marketing" and really confuses most people who casually glance at the charts to get information. Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see. The only way to determine your payload is to weigh your truck with a full fuel tank, loaded as you'll travel and go to a CAT scale. get the "real weight" and subtract that from 11,400 lbs. That is IF you have the correct tires on the truck and nobody has "changed out wheels, shocks, brakes, bearings. All of those components (along with many others) make up the GVWR. Any subs for lighter duty components changes the 11,400. How much? Who knows, But bottom line, that chart is for the base model truck, not yours.
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Old 04-14-2015, 01:37 AM   #20
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towing heavy

Some good advice here so far. I'll throw a real-world note in:

If you upgrade the truck to be well within the towing range an almost magical thing happens... Those air bags and goodies you've added to the other truck, you suddenly realize it's towing the load without need for any of that stuff.

I watched a coworker go through this epiphany with his setup years ago. He would fuss and mess and add things to his (underrated) truck and then one day he shows up with a dually, properly sized for his matching tastes in trailer size.

He keeps remarking after the first trips around town in the truck for his commute and regular driving that it sure seems "stiff" and he isn't enamored with the ride quality, etc.

Then three weeks later he hitches up for the first long trip with the trailer...

And Monday morning he's all bright eyed and babbling on about how he "barely notices the trailer is back there anymore!" and saying stuff like, "man, I should have done this a LONG time ago!", eye etc etc.

He had thousands and thousands in "upgrades" in that first truck and he truly enjoyed modding it. His time put in, in changing things, and messing with it, wasn't small. And he still complained that the truck payments on the new one were a little painful at times.

But I don't think you could pay him to tow overloaded ever again. He'd downsize the trailer before he'd go back to it. You'll never get him out of a DRW ever again with a big trailer, either. Sometimes you just have to experience it and that makes it click... This is how towing something this big should feel.

I'm not knocking anyone's personal decision to tow however they feel comfortable and spend their hard earned shekels however they please, that's not my style. But I'm happy to share what I watched him go through as he switched from "towing heavy" to towing well within the specifications of his truck.

Watching that, also helped me make my decision when it came time to buy our 5er. I bought the truck first, and then sized the trailer accordingly. The truck is a 2001 Dodge Cummins with the camper package, DRW, manual transmission, low geared rear end, and an add-on exhaust brake. Yes I can afford something newer and shinier in a less heavy TV, even new if I cared to have a car loan... But we stuck to what we could afford in cash and while we did take a loan on the trailer, it could also be paid off tomorrow. Well, maybe a week to free up the funds, anyway.

It's a joy to pull the trailer with it, and it had some other mods done (upgraded computer w/variable tuning for additional horsepower and an upgraded turbo that actually because of an improper installation led to a head gasket blowout, and a big honking cold air intake to feed the turbo beast, and since then I've upped the injector size a bit) but it'll tow just fine, and within weight limits, stock. It also amazingly did almost 2000 miles with that head gasket blown and got us home.

Someday I'll have to trade it or sell it and I'll find another DRW that has at least the capacity it does or better, and continue to enjoy the rock solid towing aspects of the setup. The only problem we've had is the length is exactly right to do a little pitching on concrete highways at certain speeds. That one is pretty easy to fix by simply changing the cruise control setting until the length of the concrete sections changes or we are back on asphalt.

No add on bags, no fancy hitch (Reese 16K), no worries about much at all other than crazy drivers who want to cut you off and sit three feet off the front bumper. It just tows. And it loves doing it.
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