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Old 03-27-2015, 10:26 AM   #141
tirnanah
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Originally Posted by sw342 View Post
Thats not true. Its only reduced to .04 when you are operating a commercial vehicle. If you are operating a non commercial vehicle with your commercial license your limit is .08.
This has been nagging at me since yesterday so I'm just going to say it. I don't care if you have your CDL or not, but if you have a 15000+ lb trailer behind you, your damn BAC better be 0. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to have ANY drinks and drive, and there is doubly ABSOLUTELY no reason to have any drinks and be behind the wheel of 26000+ lb truck and trailer. Wait until you get to your campsite, then start popping tops when you know you don't have to move again.

Sorry, but I had to say it...
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Old 03-27-2015, 12:45 PM   #142
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This has been nagging at me since yesterday so I'm just going to say it. I don't care if you have your CDL or not, but if you have a 15000+ lb trailer behind you, your damn BAC better be 0. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to have ANY drinks and drive, and there is doubly ABSOLUTELY no reason to have any drinks and be behind the wheel of 26000+ lb truck and trailer. Wait until you get to your campsite, then start popping tops when you know you don't have to move again.

Sorry, but I had to say it...
We are discussing the law and what is written in it. Not how we conduct ourselves. Have another pop and relax
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Old 04-25-2015, 07:41 AM   #143
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I'm in California. I think chuckster57 is right, except you have to take a driving test and fill out a medical questionnaire (but does not need doctors signature). This is for any trailer rated over 15,000. 10,000 to 14,999 just has to take the written test. Has nothing to do with SRW or DRW, Unless things have changed in the last 6 months.
California loves to add a "1" when setting weights, it does make it easier to remember, so weights are listed something like 10,000 to 15,000 then 15,001 to ...

At least CA doesn't look at GCVWR just GVWR for each vehicle thus you can have a truck with a GVWR of 14,400 and a 5th wheel RV at 15,000 and you're completely legal to drive it with a Class C license.

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Went in for my "trailer endorsement" today to be added to my license.

So I got to talking to them about this whole endorsement and license thing, and the gals super suddenly got up and came over to talk about it. She, they, said, it's not getting a ticket that makes the difference.

They are trying to get the word out, to all RV owners, that if they are involved in a "crash" their insurance company can and have the right, to not cover the crash, without the proper endorsement and/or license class, as it is up to he owner to know the law. They were very good at explaining the problem.
It's good that they are becoming more active but finding all of the information is still a royal PITA. I've placed many calls to the DMV, CHP Commercial Division (they handle all of the weight issues) and Caltrans and pulling it altogether. I hope to be posting what I've found soon.

Here is one tidbit from what I'm working on.
When do you have to stop at the scales.

The condition that controls weather or not you have to enter the scales is a commercial vehicle "GVWR 11,501 pounds or more, unladen weight 8,001 pounds or more".

Once you reach these conditions it does not matter how the vehicle is configured. Pickup beds don't matter any more, once you reach those limits you are required to stop.

There is however one condition that will allow you to bypass the scales.
Whenever the RV is attached they don't consider the rig commercial, assuming that you don't have a bunch of advertising plastered all over the outside, so you don’t have to stop. This may seem backwards but its the way it is.
It's a royal PITA that CA doesn't give personal vehicles a break when we're just driving around in our personal trucks when it comes to scales. That said here is what the CHP in the commercial division said. If you drove by the scales in you're nice Ram 3500 dually they would not likely send a car after you. If a patrol officer just happen to be going the same way and saw you pass the scales they will most likely pull you over. If you show them documentation that you're not commercial and you use it to pull you're RV they will most likely just scold you and issue a warning. He said they are not out to get RVers with larger pickups needed to pull their RVs.

BTW, I plan to debadge my truck so a LEO driving by will have one less identifying mark to use.
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Old 04-25-2015, 08:42 AM   #144
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It's a royal PITA that CA doesn't give personal vehicles a break when we're just driving around in our personal trucks when it comes to scales.
All trucks in CA are commercial, not personal. From my last chat with commercial enforcement, If you are over the 11,500 you should be running a MCP and stopping at the scales. Without a trailer you are considered bobtail and can get pulled over and given a ticket for not running the stickers on the side of your door. With a RV trailer in tow you are not considered commercial and do not have to stop at the scales.

At the time about the only thing that fell into that category was the F450. Now most all dual rear wheel trucks are over the 11,500. So no amount of de-badging will help. If you are in a newer 1 ton dually you are going to be over and they know it. Its going to depend on if the officer is a tin man or not.
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Old 04-25-2015, 12:54 PM   #145
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Not to be smarty, but I've never stopped at a state scale. Are there signs at the California border directing all trucks at whatever GVW to stop?
You're saying that all new duallys in CA should run ICC stickers?.
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Old 04-25-2015, 02:00 PM   #146
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All trucks in CA are commercial, not personal. From my last chat with commercial enforcement, If you are over the 11,500 you should be running ICC numbers and stopping at the scales. Without a trailer you are considered bobtail and can get pulled over and given a ticket for not running the stickers on the side of your door. With a RV trailer in tow you are not considered commercial and do not have to stop at the scales.

At the time about the only thing that fell into that category was the F450. Now most all dual rear wheel trucks are over the 11,500. So no amount of de-badging will help. If you are in a newer 1 ton dually you are going to be over and they know it. Its going to depend on if the officer is a tin man or not.
I know all truck are commercial I was just stating when only used for "Our" personal trucks...

Debugging is mainly for looks but if it helps on the identification side that's icing on the cake.

Now you're getting into the paper I'm writing but I'll give you the cliff notes version.

You do not need either ICC, Federal, or CA, State, numbers for vehicles strictly used for personal use including when you bring that load of Sod home from Home Depot. I verified this with the CHP Commercial Division in Sacramento and the actual laws that govern it.

You don't need a Motor Carrier Permit since to get one you need a CA number and the CHP will not issue CA numbers for person/noncommercial use trucks.

That leaves the CVRA which is still a gray area. I've been told that you should not include your RV when figuring out what load rating you want to pay for. Only for the load rating you may need when NOT pulling your RV because once your 5th wheel is connected the entire rig becomes an RV and weight limits don't apply.

BTW, my understanding is that when no CVRA stickers are present it's assume you've picked the 1 to 10,000lb range so if you weighed in at 10,001 you would be in violation unless of course you're pulling your RV.

I'll be attend my local police department open house as an exhibitor this June. I'll have a talk with their commercial enforcement officer just to see what he understands.
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Old 04-25-2015, 02:07 PM   #147
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Not to be smarty, but I've never stopped at a state scale. Are there signs at the California border directing all trucks at whatever GVW to stop?
You're saying that all new duallys in CA should run ICC stickers?.
No, not all are required CA numbers, see my previous post more more details.

ICC stickers are only required if you have an ICC number.

CVRA stickers are only needed if you are commercial and have self declared your vehicle to have a GVWR or GCVWR over 10,000lb. I which they would simplify this so that CVRA stickers were only required if you are required to have a CA number.
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Old 04-25-2015, 03:24 PM   #148
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My head hurts too!

Way, way back in this thread - page 2 or 3 post #15- gearhead mentioned that his head hurts. After reading 132 more posts taking up 15 or so pages, my head is really hurting too.

Let's see if I have this right. We have 4 different classes of licenses: A, B, C, and D and at least 2 of them have a commercial and non-commercial component. That makes 6 and perhaps more different classes - depending upon what you are towing and what you pull with.

Then we have the DMV, the DOT, the CHP and various other LEO's running around trying to see who is driving what and what kind of license they have. In addition, it seems that we also have some stickers thrown in here to make matters even more confusing. Stickers like ICC and CVRA.

I'm trying to get my head around all of these licenses, stickers, government agencies, and sections and sub-sections. So many abbreviations to remember - or forget. Is towing an RV really this complicated? Or are we determined to make it that way?

While it would appear that most of this discussion is centered around what goes on in CA - yes, I do get that one - it makes me want to avoid going into that state for fear that I will be stopped by the CHP for not having my Class B non commercial license, the ICC sticker (or is that the CVRA one??) and sent back to Canada.

I'm headed to the medicine cabinet to get some Tylenol. My head is really hurting. And to think that there will be more of this to come! My tiny brain just can't take anymore. How much more information do we need? How much more information is out there? Scary.

Edit : Oh no - another new one has been added in post #151 and just when I thought that there couldn't be any more -- please add MCP the growing list. Apparently, it's some kind of permit - a Motor Carrier Permit.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:46 PM   #149
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Debugging is mainly for looks but if it helps on the identification side that's icing on the cake.
Commercials cops are not that stupid. You are underestimating them.


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That leaves the CVRA which is still a gray area. I've been told that you should not include your RV when figuring out what load rating you want to pay for. Only for the load rating you may need when NOT pulling your RV because once your 5th wheel is connected the entire rig becomes an RV and weight limits don't apply.

BTW, my understanding is that when no CVRA stickers are present it's assume you've picked the 1 to 10,000lb range so if you weighed in at 10,001 you would be in violation unless of course you're pulling your RV.
The unladen weight of a pickup cannot exceed 8,000 pounds and its GVW rating must be less than 11,500 pounds or you fall into CVRA. Can you even buy a dually pickup nowdays that has a GVWR of under 11,500 lbs? My new Ram has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:58 PM   #150
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Way, way back in this thread - page 2 or 3 post #15- gearhead mentioned that his head hurts. After reading 132 more posts taking up 15 or so pages, my head is really hurting too.

Let's see if I have this right. We have 4 different classes of licenses: A, B, C, and D and at least 2 of them have a commercial and non-commercial component. That makes 8 and perhaps more different classes - depending upon where you live.

Then we have the DMV, the DOT, the CHP and various other LEO's running around trying to see who is driving what and what kind of license they have. In addition, it seems that we also have some stickers thrown in here to make matters even more confusing. Stickers like ICC and CVRA.

I'm trying to get my head around all of these licenses, stickers, government agencies, and sections and sub-sections. So many abbreviations to remember - or forget. Is towing an RV really this complicated? Or are we determined to make it that way?

While it would appear that most of this discussion is centered around what goes on in CA - yes, I do get that one - it makes me want to avoid going into that state for fear that I will be stopped by the CHP for not having my Class B non commercial license, the ICC sticker (or is that the CVRA one??) and sent back to Canada.

I'm headed to the medicine cabinet to get some Tylenol. My head is really hurting. And to think that there will be more of this to come! My tiny brain just can't take anymore. How much more information do we need? How much more information is out there? Scary.
Fetus I'm going to have a conversation with some 80 proof.
I haven't been to California in 20+ years. Ain't going back either.
Oh....a Texas friend did get pulled over in California towing a 5th with a 3/4 ton. Cop told him if he wasn't from so far away he would make him unhitch and call a tow for the 5th. He could get the 5th back when he returned with a suitable truck. Funny thing is my friend was from originally California.
Not picking on California folks though.
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Old 04-25-2015, 06:26 PM   #151
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You don't need a Motor Carrier Permit since to get one you need a CA number and the CHP will not issue CA numbers for person/noncommercial use trucks.
Technically if you have a newer dually you need the MCP.


https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...try/mcp/mcpfaq
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Old 04-26-2015, 06:41 AM   #152
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Commercials cops are not that stupid. You are underestimating them.

The unladen weight of a pickup cannot exceed 8,000 pounds and its GVW rating must be less than 11,500 pounds or you fall into CVRA. Can you even buy a dually pickup nowdays that has a GVWR of under 11,500 lbs? My new Ram has a GVWR of 14,000 lbs
I know their not but as the officer in the commercial division said please pull in but if you happen to forget and you articulate it's your own personal vehicle used to pull you're RV we'll likely just let you off with a warning. HOWEVER don't make a habit doing it.

I've not seen any of the current duallys which are under those numbers.

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Technically if you have a newer dually you need the MCP.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...try/mcp/mcpfaq
Not true, the requirement to get a MCP is that you MUST have a CA number. The CHP will not issue CA numbers for noncommercial use trucks. When you ask the DMV they may tell you that you need to file for an MCP until you show them that the CHP will not issue one based on vehicle code Section 34601 (c) 2 (G). At that point they should drop the MCP requirement.
Current through Dec 31, 2015:
(G) Motortrucks or two–axle truck tractors, with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001 pounds, operated solely to tow a camp trailer, trailer coach, fifthwheel travel trailer, trailer designed to transport watercraft, or utility trailer. Vehicle combinations described in this subparagraph are not subject to Section 27900, 34501.12, or 34507.5.
As of Jan 1, 2016:
(G) Vehicles never operated in commercial use, including motortrucks or two–axle truck tractors, with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 26,001 pounds, when operated singly, or, when used to tow a camp trailer, trailer coach, fifth–wheel travel trailer, trailer designed to transport watercraft, or a utility trailer, never operated in commercial use. Vehicle combinations described in this subparagraph are not subject to Section 27900, 34501.12, or 34507.5.
FYI, what's in those sections?
V C Section 27900 Identification Required (has to do with marking on the vehicle)
V C Section 34501.12 Inspection of Maintenance Facility or Terminal
V C Section 34507.5 Carrier Identification Number
It would be great if they add the CVRA requirement to the list.
Note the current version the 2016 version of the law. They added the "never operated in commercial use" and "when operated singly" to make it completely clear. It always was that way but some LEOs would read the law differently and site you for not having a CA number. It always was dismissed in court but it was a PITA to fight every time. CHP officers generally know this it was the local cops that didn't. Best thing to do is have a copy of the law in your truck.

I've spent well over 40 hours, maybe 80, researching this because I was looking at a Ram 5500 to pull a New Horizon 26,000 rig and none of this is spelled out in any single location.
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Old 04-26-2015, 07:39 AM   #153
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The problem is what is evidenced in this thread. You can talk to one officer one day and get one answer and two days later talk to another officer and get a completely different answer. We had a commercial officer come into work a few years ago for some info and a Q&A. After his talk and a few trick questions on his part about dui legal limit and front axle weights, I pulled him aside to ask him if I should be running numbers on my dually.

At the time I had an '05 Chevy and GM had rated it for 11, 400 lbs, knowing probably and keeping it under the magic 11,500 lbs number. He said i was fine. Now a F450, 4500, etc...would not be fine. With a F450 in CA, you would either have to run the numbers if you wanted to drive it bobtail and pull into the scales. If you never unhooked it from your RV you didn't need to. God forbid if you unhooked from your RV and ran to the store for some supplies and got caught.

He said they had tin men on the force that during the economic downturn of '08 and on, that were pulling over women in vans that they could see a vacuum cleaner or cleaning supplies. They were trying to make extra money, but were now using the van in a commercial venture. Or people that were running around in a pickup with a lawn mower in the back that might be mowing lawns for money.

The MCP law changed around 2013 and what was true back then, might not be today. Who knows, half the cops you talk to don't even know. But before 2013 if you were going to run and F450, 4500, 5500, etc, like you were thinking of doing, there would be no way for you to be able to drive it around town without an RV hooked up to it. Otherwise you would have to have all the associated numbers and be stopping at the scales.
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