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Old 02-02-2014, 08:14 PM   #1
cbeams
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Water Heater on Fire!! HELP!

Just returned from our first trip in our 2011 31SQB. Friday night, just before we fell asleep, I started smell that dreadful electrical burn smell. I jump up and turned on he flash light and it was obvious that something was burning. My nose lead me to the then stove and then I realized that the water heater was under the stove. I removed the panel and found he smoke. The water heated was "ON" in the electric mode and the smoke was coming from the junction box where the 110 volt wires were connected. I turned the breaker off and switched to gas. Once I got home I pulled the stove out and dug in. The wire nuts and black tape had melted into one big glob.

Any ideas? Never once did the breaker trip.... What could cause these wires to get this hot?


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Old 02-02-2014, 08:37 PM   #2
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What could cause these wires to get this hot?
Corrosion/poor contact between the wire connections at the wire nuts can act as a high resistance which will heat up and cause this.
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Old 02-02-2014, 08:46 PM   #3
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Maybe a poor electrical connection between the wires being joined by the wire nuts. Possibly corrosion on the wires resulted in a high resistance connection, and resistance produces heat. I would clean up the wires real good with sand paper to remove any corrosion and then use new wire nuts of the proper size. Then try the heater again and see if the connection stays cool. If it doesn't, I would suspect a defective heating element as well as a defective breaker for not tripping.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:28 AM   #4
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Good ideas, B&T and gepaine... I called Suburban and they are helping test few a couple of things... I'll keep you posted... Thanks to all!


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Old 02-03-2014, 07:16 PM   #5
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Yikes! Not cool. That really could have turned out bad. Glad to hear that was the only thing that was damaged and nobody was hurt.
Now you got me thinking as I have the exact same year and model as you. Please keep us updated as I would like to know what it was that caused this so I can prevent this on ours.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:51 PM   #6
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Will do Sherwood... Still digging for an answer. Really puzzled.


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Old 02-03-2014, 08:09 PM   #7
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Wire connections melted

Definitely check out the water heater - if it is overdrawing power because of a bad element, that could melt the wires too.

Vibration could also cause the connections to be loose, so clean well, perhaps even put on some electrical conductive paste, which is commonly recommended on vehicle lights and connections.
Know how you feel - a fire in my RV would be a big concern!
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by cbeams View Post
Will do Sherwood... Still digging for an answer. Really puzzled.


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Cool. And best of luck to ya.
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:40 PM   #9
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Well.. I have checked everything I know of...

1. No shorts in hot wire from wire nut to switch, from switch to thermostat, from thermostat to element.
2. Element is good.. Took it out, no visual defects and good ohms.
3. Panel feeding 120 volts.

I cleaned up the wires and hooked it all back up. It's making hot water.. No hot wires after a day of use... I hate this... But I think it was the wire nuts. I'm not to trilled about mating a strained and solid wire with a wire nut... Especially pulling up to 15 amps. Anyone know of a better way to join these wires? Terminal block?


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Old 02-09-2014, 07:41 PM   #10
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Thrilled not trilled...


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Old 02-09-2014, 07:58 PM   #11
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I'm thinking you had some sort of bad connection at the wire nut. Bad connection's cause's arching, arching causes carbon build-up and heat, and it keeps getting worse from there until melting and or fire. That will not trip a breaker unless you had an arc fault breaker in. If you had a short, the breaker should have tripped.
I always twist the strands of the wire real tight and when I place the two together to be wire nutted, I put the stranded wire out just a little farther than the solid wire and wire nut. Of course, you could always butt splice it, male/female blade connectors, etc...
I guess now I'm going to go out and check all my connections before I fire her up the first time this year. Thanks for the follow-up.
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Old 02-10-2014, 03:22 AM   #12
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Mc Master Carr could have them in a day or two


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Old 02-10-2014, 10:36 AM   #13
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A terminal block will only add more connections to your circuit, and more chances of loose connections. The most reliable connection would be a crimp connector rated for 120V and properly insulated, not your common automotive/low voltage butt connectors. As you have discovered, the wire nut, properly installed, will work fine, and does not actually carry current because it is only used to hold the two wires together. You are looking at 12 amps at these connections going to your water heater, which is well within the rating of wire nuts, as long as they are installed correctly. Glad you didn't ignore the smell of burning connections
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:01 AM   #14
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I am suprised that wire nuts were used in that app at all then top it off with electrical tape. Is that even up to code? I'd use HD 120 volt crimp connectors with the correct crimper. Good luck.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:01 PM   #15
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Another way to connect the wires. Crimp on a ring lug on each wire. Then bolt the two ring lugs together with a brass screw. Apply plenty of tape over the connection.

That's how we connect motors at work.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:31 PM   #16
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Well guys I have buttoned all back up. You know I learn something new about my camper every time something breaks... Maybe I can help someone else along the way. I used a couple of connectors called Polaris Connectors, I am happy with the results and hopefully this is the end of the smoky water heater! Thanks to all the posts! Here's a pic of the connectors.


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Old 02-15-2014, 10:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
I'm thinking you had some sort of bad connection at the wire nut. Bad connection's cause's arching, arching causes carbon build-up and heat, and it keeps getting worse from there until melting and or fire. That will not trip a breaker unless you had an arc fault breaker in. If you had a short, the breaker should have tripped.
Just want to clarify something on the above statement. Since the heating was in the wire nuts that connected the hot to a hot lead and a neutral to a neutral lead, a arc fault interrupting breaker would have made no difference. An AFI breaker is design to interrupt a arc between hot and neutral wire of 75 amps (UL Standard).

What it looked like you had was a bad connection which caused high resistance and it was not high enough to overload the breaker. A 15 A breaker will carry 15 A indefinitely. So if your normal draw is 10 A for the hot water heater and then you have a high resistance connection adding 5 A to the circuit and assume that it is a 1 ohm resistance, that would equate to 25 W (I^2R). Think about the heat on a 25 W incandescent light bulb.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by wbdvt View Post
Just want to clarify something on the above statement. Since the heating was in the wire nuts that connected the hot to a hot lead and a neutral to a neutral lead, a arc fault interrupting breaker would have made no difference. An AFI breaker is design to interrupt a arc between hot and neutral wire of 75 amps (UL Standard).

What it looked like you had was a bad connection which caused high resistance and it was not high enough to overload the breaker. A 15 A breaker will carry 15 A indefinitely. So if your normal draw is 10 A for the hot water heater and then you have a high resistance connection adding 5 A to the circuit and assume that it is a 1 ohm resistance, that would equate to 25 W (I^2R). Think about the heat on a 25 W incandescent light bulb.
Not sure where you got your info from but I have provided info and links to back up my claim.

"Unlike a standard circuit breaker detecting overloads and short circuits, an AFCI utilizes advanced electronic technology to “sense” the different arcing conditions. While there are different technologies employed to measure arcs by the various AFCI manufacturers, the end result is the same, detecting parallel arcs (line to line, line to neutral and line to ground) and/or series arcs (arcing in series with one of the conductors).
How does arc fault detection work? In essence, the detection is accomplished by the use of advanced electronic technology to monitor the circuit for the presence of “normal” and “dangerous” arcing conditions. Some equipment in the home, such as a motor driven vacuum cleaner or furnace motor, naturally creates arcs. This is considered to be a normal arcing condition. Another normal arcing condition that can sometimes be seen is when a light switch is turned off and the opening of the contacts creates an arc."
http://www.afcisafety.org/qa.html
AFCI's detect dangerous arcing conditions between line to line, line to neutral, and line to ground. It does not matter specifically an arc between line to neutral as you stated. It detects dangerous ones that could have been a possibility as OP described.

Voltage, Current and Resistance Summary

"Hopefully by now you should have some idea of how electrical Voltage, Current and Resistance are closely related together. The relationship between Voltage, Current and Resistance forms the basis of Ohm's law which in a linear circuit states that if we increase the voltage, the current goes up and if we increase the resistance, the current goes down. Then we can see that current flow around a circuit is directly proportional ( ∝ ) to voltage, ( V↑ causes I↑ ) but inversely proportional ( 1/∝ ) to resistance as, ( R↑ causes I↓ )."
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/...its/dcp_1.html
Although the provided info and link refer to DC circuits, Ohm's wheel applies the same for both.
Bottom line, with increase resistance, current (amps) go down, not up causing increased heat. E/R from the Ohm wheel. Hope this helps.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:24 PM   #19
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My information came from Square D website on their QO AFI line of breakers, which specifically stated that it was line to neutral fault. A arcing fault in such a small area, such as a wire nut, would be impossible to detect as it would be very small. The arcing intended to be interrupted is across a wider gap. Therefore due to the close proximity in a wire nut and UL Standards on what amperage would be required to activate the AF feature, this would not have worked here. Per NEC 2011 handbook, AFCI's are evaluated to determine resistance to unwanted tripping due to a loading condition that closely mimics an arcing fault such as a dimmed load (UL Standard 1699). I would argue that the OP had he not smelled burning would have noticed a decrease in hot water. This would analogous to a home hot water heater where one element burns out and you notice it because you home electric bill has gone out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherwood View Post
Voltage, Current and Resistance Summary

"Hopefully by now you should have some idea of how electrical Voltage, Current and Resistance are closely related together. The relationship between Voltage, Current and Resistance forms the basis of Ohm's law which in a linear circuit states that if we increase the voltage, the current goes up and if we increase the resistance, the current goes down. Then we can see that current flow around a circuit is directly proportional ( ∝ ) to voltage, ( V↑ causes I↑ ) but inversely proportional ( 1/∝ ) to resistance as, ( R↑ causes I↓ )."
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/...its/dcp_1.html
Although the provided info and link refer to DC circuits, Ohm's wheel applies the same for both.
Bottom line, with increase resistance, current (amps) go down, not up causing increased heat. E/R from the Ohm wheel. Hope this helps.
true but I was just trying to make a simplistic point on where the heating was coming from as not everyone on this website is as versed in electricity. The water heater would be struggling to make hot water and there would be a voltage drop on the circuit due to any added resistance. The recycle time on the water heater would have been longer and if paying the electric bill would result in increased cost.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:45 PM   #20
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"A arcing fault in such a small area, such as a wire nut, would be impossible to detect as it would be very small. The arcing intended to be interrupted is across a wider gap."

Too small of an area to trip AFCI? The AFCI uses an integrated processor which recognizes the unique current and/or voltage signatures associated with arcing faults. Size does not matter here. Below are a couple of sites that name ways to trip an AFCI and includes some very good info.
https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...t~20020801.htm
http://download.schneider-electric.c...0700BR1202.pdf
http://www.ashireporter.org/HomeInsp...me-of-Age/2418
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/a...p/t-36322.html This one here show's an example of how a bad connection in a wire nut was tripping an AFCI.

In case your wondering, I have over 10 years in as an electrician and my brother who has over 15 years agreed to my initial assessment. I'm not trying to start or will continue any sort of argument, I'm just trying to put out there my experience and knowledge of what I have dealt with for over 10 years along multiple web sites that back up my claim. Just trying to help out my fellow campers!
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