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Old 11-07-2013, 07:41 AM   #1
Mosnowman
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Best Quality RV?

So I was convinced to buy a keystone Cougar 333mks fifth wheel until I started reading some of these threads. I currently own a Keystone travel trailer.

I am getting concerned about Keystone's quality control after reading about a lot of problems in these threads. Funny thing is I have been happy with my trailer but one glaring issue that should be a no brainer is one of my indoor outlets. It isn't even close to being level. ANYONE could tell when they installed it yet they simply left it. The only reason I bring up this small issue is when I read these threads it only reinforces Keystone's lack of attention to detail. So....

If you were buying a NEW low to mid range fifth wheel....like the Cougar...would you buy Keystone brand or choose another? This will most likely be my last camper so I don't want a lot of problems! If not Keystone what brand?
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:06 AM   #2
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Go to any other "RV Owner's Forum" and you'll read the same "problem list" on each of those sites. Quality control, building problem free RV's and owner satisfaction are not "objective measurements."

Each of us has a "subjective satisfaction" or "dis-satisfaction" with our RV. what you read on sites like this is the "vocal people's opinion"

There is very little "real world: expect to find it in all new RV's" to be found here. Rather you'll find volumes about a "single trailer" or "one owner's issues" I'd urge you not to rely on the "gripe section" of any forum for "factual measurement" of any manufacturer's quality.

And, your experiences with your Keystone RV: (only finding one plug installed crooked) should be an indication of past satisfaction with a brand. I'd say you've found a "quality RV" already.

There's "lemons" and there's "oranges"..... When you grab one out of the bag "blindly" you'll never know how sweet it will be until after you bite into it. If you're happy with what you pulled out of the bag last time, your choice is either to "reach in the same bag again" or go to "another bag" and hope for fewer lemons.

Life's a gamble, stack the odds in your favor where you can.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:17 AM   #3
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I don't have a 5th wheel, but have read a lot on here. The recurring theme that seems to be developing is the dealer is key. If you have a good dealer, they catch and fix everything they can find before you take custody of it, and hopefully before it even goes on the lot for sale. If you have a bad dealer or go to a discount dealer, your experience can vary wildly.

I've bought two units (a small popup some years back and our current TT) from typical dealers with extremely minor issues that were simple, cheap fixes and weren't even worth taking back to the dealer to get repaired. Our last trailer was a HTT that we got from a discount dealer. It had *lots* of issues. Some were caught during PDI, but most were things that worked just well enough that they weren't an issue until after I got home. It's only three data points, but I do see some correlation with stories I've read on here from others.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:33 AM   #4
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I agree with the above statement.

I bought new a 2010, 318SAB 5er from Pontiac RV Center in Pontiac IL. When we bought the 5er I informed the dealer that we were going to do a PRE-Delivery Audit and anything found wrong at that time would be fixed before we took delivery of said unit. No money had exchanged hands at that time so there was incentive for the dealer to insure all issues if found were corrected.

I think that a lot of issues with some users of any camper are; that they do not do a pre-delivery audit of the camper that they are buying. You need to climb up on the roof and craw under the chassis. You also need to work all controls and have the dealer personnel watch you as you work them. You must carry a flashlight and coveralls since you will be crawling around on either dirt/gravel or cement floors as you inspect the camper.

We’ll none were found and I purchased the trailer, since then we have had excellent service out of the trailer. Now I did have two warranty issues that needed to be resolved. But that was taken care of by the dealer and Keystone was never called nor contacted for any assistance.

I believe that you work with the selling dealer and not the manufacture to resolve any warranty issues. That’s why you buy from the dealer.

Jim W.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:23 AM   #5
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We've been really happy with our TT and it's an 08. I think the quality of the new ones is not as good. We've had no issues with our and everything works great.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #6
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All good responses ... Expecting the same quality of product one line offers vs another is part of the issue sometimes as well. Cougar is a good line and offers alot of bang for the buck .. but that comes at a cost .. it may not be the quality you would expect. I love my 333MKS and if it wasnt for the Dealer i would be right bent out of shape. The Service/Support from Keystone is crap .. but a good dealer will go the extra mile and make things right. I dont like that they could not provide a wiring schematic ... lol. I go into my parents trailer (heartland landmark) and its worth a chunk more money, and it shows with the quality of unit .. inside and out. I go into my uncles trailer (Redwood by Thor) and lol the quality inside and out is even better ... so you have to weigh out the how much you can and want to spend, ability to tow what you would like safely. The Cougar 333mks is what me and my wife could afford with out any stress and i had a truck that could pull it fine. And we love it. If i had a bad dealer .. it would probably be a different story. Good luck in your venture
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:48 AM   #7
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We've been really happy with our TT and it's an 08. I think the quality of the new ones is not as good. We've had no issues with our and everything works great.
I don't know what you're basing your observation about the quality of "new RV's" not being as good ..... We owned a 2011 Springdale 242 that we bought new and had no problems with it other than the refrigerator failure which was not a Keystone problem but rather a Dometic problem.

We traded that after 3.5 "troublefree" years and about 8,000 miles when a tree fell on it. We bought a 2014 Cougar XLite, have owned it for 5 months now and towed it over 6000 miles and have not had one problem with it. While my experience is "singular" in nature, I'd have to say that the quality of both my RV's is good (or better) and I've experienced no problems with either one. If that's any indication, Keystone seems to have maintained their quality through at least the last 4 years.

I did some research to see just what kind of production we're looking at and found the following information on this website:

http://www.rvbusiness.com/tag/keystone-rv/

Keystone produces about 80% of all new towable RV's. In the first 6 months of 2013, the industry shipped 174,871 units. That means in the first 6 months of this year, Keystone produced about 140,000 trailers. If the shipping rate was maintained, this year Keystone will have produced about 280,000 trailers. That's over a quarter million trailers produced. Given the "volume" of complaints on this forum, can any of us say that the 100 or so "unhappy campers" is a "real indication of a growing quality problem" ??? I'd say that if we consider every complaint lodged against Keystone on this forum, we're still talking a "failure rate" of less than 0.00035. That's less than 35 thousandth's of one percent that have problems.

I would imagine that the number of owners who have problems is greater than the number of owners who report their problems in this forum, so the data here is subject to (and probably is) wrong, but even if the "failure rate" is 100 times greater than reported here, we're still talking around 3/10 of one percent who have problems..... PLUS, you have to remember that about half the problems reported on this forum are complaints about an RV that's well out of warranty, sometimes by as much as 8 to 10 years.

Sure there are things that Keystone can do better, there's things that any manufacturer can/should change, but how many of them are cost effective if the manufacturer is trying to maintain the product in a competetive market?

Maybe, just maybe, the "fear of buying a Keystone product" is more a "superstition" than a "reality" ?????

NOTE: I went back to double check all my data and found a significant part that I overlooked: "Elkhart County produces about 80# of all towable RV's and Keystone produces about 36% of that number. So, this is the "revised" data:

the industry shipped 174,871 units. That means in the first 6 months of this year, Keystone produced about 62,954 trailers. If the shipping rate was maintained, this year Keystone will have produced about 125,000 trailers. .....we're still talking a "failure rate" of less than 0.0008. That's less than 1 thousandth's of one percent that have problems.

Essentially, the revised figures almost "double" the "failure rate," but it is still less than one tenth of one percent. I apologize for the miscalculations, but the revised data still supports the statement that Keystone's quality remains very high with a very good product being produced across all the brand lines.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:59 AM   #8
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Mosnowman,
I have had 2 cougars now. The first was the 301BHS TT. Now I have the 327RES 5er. Both had some issues, some the dealer fixed some I fixed. TT dealer was 75 miles away, Only major problems were taken back to them.
5er dealer is about 60 miles away. factory recalls are the only thing they have done. I have fixed anything else I thought was not up to my expectations. Over all both have been great campers. My most major problem was self inflected and I fixed that in September finally..7 month delay on getting some money for the parts. Once that was done my dealer had what I needed in around 2 weeks. Counter tops are not cheap and are not easy to ship..I did it myself to save the labor cost.
We almost bought the 333MKS until we saw the 327RES..we were headed to put a deposit down on the MKS when we ran across the RES, thats how that happened. My daughter and son in law just bought a new 2014 Cougar 5er wheel also. their main problem was the digital control panel but thats all fixed now.
I agree with all who have posted you will see more negative comments before you see the positive comments. NO problems we don't post about it. Problems we blast who ever and whatever.
So just remember they all make a bad camper every now and then, BUT I believe the good ones out weigh the bad. JMHO
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:06 AM   #9
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I don't know what you're basing your observation about the quality of "new RV's" not being as good .....
Keystone produces about 80% of all new towable RV's. In the first 6 months of 2013, the industry shipped 174,871 units. That means in the first 6 months of this year, Keystone produced about 140,000 trailers. If the shipping rate was maintained, this year Keystone will have produced about 280,000 trailers. That's over a quarter million trailers produced. Given the "volume" of complaints on this forum, can any of us say that the 100 or so "unhappy campers" is a "real indication of a growing quality problem" ??? I'd say that if we consider every complaint lodged against Keystone on this forum, we're still talking a "failure rate" of less than 0.00035. That's less than 35 thousandths of one percent that have problems.
JRTJH don't be throwing out that Six Sigma stuff on us..but because you brought it up.. Thats an acceptable failure rate at my place of business.
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:28 AM   #10
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JRTJH don't be throwing out that Six Sigma stuff on us..but because you brought it up.. Thats an acceptable failure rate at my place of business.
That's my point..... Just like at your place of business, that's an acceptable failure rate for my invenstment in an RV.

As for throwing that "Six Sigma stuff" ... Once a "green belt" always a "green belt"
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Old 11-07-2013, 10:34 AM   #11
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JRTJH don't be throwing out that Six Sigma stuff on us..but because you brought it up.. Thats an acceptable failure rate at my place of business.
I think for most production line based businesses, 2-3% is an acceptable failure rate. At least that's the number I was given a few years back when I went to a Dometic school.

I also think that when you dig into a post that is relating problems with a Keystone trailer, you'll find that many of the issues are actually related to the third party equipment that Keystone installs and they have little control over that.
Now, am I a Keystone cheerleader? Hardly. I think they send more problems out the door than they should, they are no different than any of the other builders. The only way we will get them to tighten up is to stop buying their product, and from their sales figures, that doesn't look like it's going to happen for a while. I think any trailers within a certain price point are going to leave the factory with the same issues.

We have two tools at our disposal. One is customer service. Keystone's customer service is abysmal, no, it's lower than abysmal, but they don't care, they're selling trailers. My next trailer will likely not be a Keystone simply because of their customer no-service. If my assumption given above is correct about similar priced trailers having similar issues, and you are going to spend the same amount of money for the same problems, you might as well shop around and make a few phone calls and see if you have to talk to Ralph in India and how easy it is to get answers to your questions. I can assure you that is going to be an exercise in futility, so that really leaves you with only one tool in your defense and that's the dealer. That's the guy you really want to establish a relationship with, and if you are going to do that, the time to do it is before you write the check. Talk to their service department. How many techs do they have? What is their shop turnover rate? What certifications do they have. If something doesn't feel right, walk. That's your last chance. Ask for references from people who have purchased from them and had service work performed. If they have anything to hide, that's where it will be. At least you can make it past the receptionist who answers the phone, which is better than you will probably do with the manufacturers customer service dept, at least Keystone.
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Old 11-07-2013, 11:55 AM   #12
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As for quality of build, it seems to be pretty much the same across the board, from what I've observed. That is, unless you get a completely custom build and pay huge bucks. Even Airstream has had an assortment of issues with their trailers. The big thing is what is the structure made of, wood or aluminum framing?

On a complete aside, I do wish they would do independent suspension on the wheels like Avion did on their trailers in the early 80s. Makes for such a smooth ride...

For a bit we had an Open Range and they have a two year warranty, which is nice. But I found some of the same sort of issues with it that I've seen in Keystone and other trailers (found one place in kitchen where seam on underflooring was not on top of beam and thus created an extra-weak spot, outlets installed so crooked you'd think the installer must have been drunk or hung over, etc.).

The Open Range we bought used and out of warranty. After the fact found a section of dry rot in back end, hidden behind a recliner. Called the factory and they were more than happy to schedule a time for us to take it to the factory for them to completely rebuild the rear. Price at the time for the repair was only $1200 or $1400 (I forget which, but either way was much cheaper than I expected for a completely new rear wall). They even have an RV park area set up next to the factory for customers to stay in if work is going to take more than a day. They take the trailer into the shop during the day and bring it back out at night for you to sleep in.
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Old 11-07-2013, 01:30 PM   #13
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I don't know what you're basing your observation about the quality of "new RV's" not being as good ..... We owned a 2011 Springdale 242 that we bought new and had no problems with it other than the refrigerator failure which was not a Keystone problem but rather a Dometic problem.

[/COLOR]
Only basing my comment on the number of posts that indicate problems is all. It's just not Keystone, rv.net has quite a few posters with newer rv's and a fair amount of problems.

But, maybe you're right in that a low failure rate is acceptable....
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Old 11-07-2013, 02:55 PM   #14
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You have to keep in mind too, people make more comments about their problems than do their likes. The likes are given, but I think one feels they are helping others more about telling about the things that are wrong. Remember, as mentioned it is a small number here making complaints. Wow, I just read what I wrote, sounds weird, but I'm leaving it anyway
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:39 PM   #15
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You have to keep in mind too, people make more comments about their problems than do their likes. The likes are given, but I think one feels they are helping others more about telling about the things that are wrong. Remember, as mentioned it is a small number here making complaints. Wow, I just read what I wrote, sounds weird, but I'm leaving it anyway
Sounds weird? No not really, what you said is what most of us have come to realize. Angry people scream, happy people smile. You usually can't hear smiles LOL

I just went to a couple of the "gripe websites", some of them are:

http://www.pissedconsumer.com/review...ystone-rv.html

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/keysto...eystone-716126

http://hyperdogz.wordpress.com/2009/...ne-rv-inc-bad/

You may, if you do a little research on this forum find that there are some very VERY familiar threads to the above problems voiced on other websites and the "nearly identical" problems voiced here. Could it be that beyond your observation that "angry people are vocal" that they also are "vocal all over the place" ?? Sort of makes me believe that when you look at "all the problems documented on the internet" that many of them are the same problem documented in mulitple places So, how many are duplicates, triplicates and more? and how many are "legitimate first time problems that are being reported ???
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:56 PM   #16
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I'm very happy with my Bullet 230BH. My good friend next door on the other hand, is not nearly as happy with his Bullet 212.
I have had mine for about three weeks less than he has had his. His has been out two more times than mine. I have yet to find any problem with mine whatsoever. he on the other hand has a laundry list to take back to the "stealer" where he purchased it. (I purchased mine elsewhere and got a much better deal)
I agree with the previous post about the dealers part in ensuring the issues are caught before delivery. Every issue on my buddies TT should have been caught when it was dealer prepped.
Todd is very sour about his purchase because 1) he allowed himself to be taken advantage of, and paid way too much. 2) he has issues with his TT that were not corrected prior to delivery. 3) he has issues with his TT that may require the entire right hand wall to be replaced.

The moral here is, do your homework, do a proper PDI, and get to know the dealership you intend to buy from and ensure you can trust them to work for you in the event you need to use their service department for warranty work.
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Old 11-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #17
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Personally I don't think there is much difference between manufactures they all have their problems, what I would do is my homework on the dealer they are the ones to go to bat for you and make sure you are looked after. Just my feelings
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Old 11-07-2013, 06:35 PM   #18
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the good the bad and the ugly

that is the life of an rver you need a good dealer. you need to be able to fix those things that can go bad or your rv experience can be ugly.
these things are slapped together on an assembly line. things are going to be not done right. on all of them. its up to you to notice before you buy it. we have had the usual suspects. blown tires, crappy assembled cabinets and glass doorpower inverter and water pump failure. upon washing the roof/ rv the other day I observed 2 staples trying to poke through the roof. I will fix it when they do. the ac drain holes have stopped up I will disassemble it and enlarge them before spring. and the list goes on. you are moving a house up and down Americas dilapidated roadways s#*t will tear up.
btw lippert makes most of the frames for most all rv manufacturers so I guess to sum it up. one of one a dozen of the other. after all you can buy a good, bad, or ugly rv. its a luck of the draw
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:42 PM   #19
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Highest Quality RV - compared to what?

Someone has mentioned this before about the quality of the RV being what we can afford. If the absolute highest quality was my only goal, I would probably buy a DRV Fifth wheel. But like most of us on this site, we bought what was affordable - honestly, probably more than what we could afford, but regardless we placed our limits based on financial factors, the same as the house we live in.
I've had complaints about my RV, but in general, I think it was built well, but I think the place where it's most visible, the finish part, like most RVs are lacking in that nice fit and trim effort. RV's definitely have a way to go to match vehicle quality, which has improved greatly over the past 30 years. My very first new car, in 1976 was terrible - screws missing, trim uneven, etc., while my 2012 truck I can't point to one issue - both by the same company. My 2012 RV, well, it reminds me of the 1976 car - on the whole it looks ok, but doesn't withstand close inspection.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #20
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Another interesting website which lists almost every RV manufacturer and their "customer satisfaction rating" based on the first ( no other ratings accepted from an individual) assessment of their RV.

It's interesting to note that Keystone rates significantly higher than Forest river and Fleetwood. It's also interesting that Keystone rates 59.6 and 59.7 and Airstream, a significantly more expensive RV rates 61.1

Take a look at the ratings for RV's you may have considered or are considering. You may find some very interesting comparisons.

http://www.rv-coach.com/rv/rating/ra...v_results.html
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