Breaker tripping

Jump start · 10-30-2013, 03:44 PM

Everything was working fine and now I have one breaker that keeps tripping. It runs both TVs, two other outlets at the rear of the Rig and the ceiling fan and light. I have changed the breaker, no luck, still trips. I pulled the large TV outlet, it is at the end of the line so I disconnected the box and left it open and tried the breaker, still tripped. Kinda stumped, anyone got any ideas? Tks

This is in a 37 ft 2009 Everest 345S.

Bob Landry · 10-30-2013, 04:28 PM

You are going to have to determine what all is on that breaker. I found out that the TV outlet in the bedroom in y trailer is fed by the same breaker that feeds the converter. The two outlets on the rear wall are supplied by the microwave breaker. I'm not saying that your trailer is wired like this, only that Keystone production floor people are not the sharpest cookies in the jar and there is no rhyme or reason to their trailer wiring. They just start connecting wires until everything works. Don't bother trying to contact Keystone's Customer No-Service for information. You are on your own.
How is the breaker that keeps tripping labeled? That may give us an idea of where to tell you to start. Meanwhile, I would start by checking if the converter is fed by this breaker. With no other load drawing on the breaker, it has to be something that is constantly running. I would unplug as many things as I could(one at a time), such as microwave, refrigerator, converter, anything that could put a load on the breaker. You also did not mention how long it takes the breaker to trip, is is instantaneous, or does it have to go for a while. An instant trip would indicate a direct short, if it takes a while, it's something that has to buils up over a period of time and may be thermal related. A standard outlet seldom ever goes bad, but if there is a GFCI outlet wired in, that would also be suspect. Electrical problems can be daunting, but many times you discover what the problem is by figuring out what it's not.

Jump start · 10-31-2013, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Landry

You are going to have to determine what all is on that breaker. I found out that the TV outlet in the bedroom in y trailer is fed by the same breaker that feeds the converter. The two outlets on the rear wall are supplied by the microwave breaker. I'm not saying that your trailer is wired like this, only that Keystone production floor people are not the sharpest cookies in the jar and there is no rhyme or reason to their trailer wiring. They just start connecting wires until everything works. Don't bother trying to contact Keystone's Customer No-Service for information. You are on your own.
How is the breaker that keeps tripping labeled? That may give us an idea of where to tell you to start. Meanwhile, I would start by checking if the converter is fed by this breaker. With no other load drawing on the breaker, it has to be something that is constantly running. I would unplug as many things as I could(one at a time), such as microwave, refrigerator, converter, anything that could put a load on the breaker. You also did not mention how long it takes the breaker to trip, is is instantaneous, or does it have to go for a while. An instant trip would indicate a direct short, if it takes a while, it's something that has to buils up over a period of time and may be thermal related. A standard outlet seldom ever goes bad, but if there is a GFCI outlet wired in, that would also be suspect. Electrical problems can be daunting, but many times you discover what the problem is by figuring out what it's not.

Hi Bob

I don't think it is the converter because it is on a separate circuit. The breaker in question is marked GEN which I assume is General. The outlets on the back wall, the outlets in the two living room slides and the ceiling fan all have no power. The outlets in the bar counter and in the kitchen all work. The circuit breaker trips immediately. The GFI is wired separately and is on its own breaker. Not sure where to start. Help.......

Bob Landry · 10-31-2013, 06:41 AM

On my trailer, the breaker marked GEN does go to the converter. I only discovered the outlet being run off of it when I shut it down to replace the 7 way plug. Do not make any assumptions about Keystone's electrical installations.

Jump start · 11-01-2013, 06:01 AM

I contacted Keystone and as expected they did not have the wiring diagram and were not in a position to help due to my problem being electrical. They checked to see if there was a mobile tech in my area which there is not. So I contacted the dealer who I purchased the extended warranty through. The tech called me back and told me to start the troubleshooting outside at the junction boxes (I may have to drop the underbelly). He feels that there is a possibility that a wire is pinched & shorting out. If the rain holds off I will start the search this morning - unless someone else has any suggestions?

Bob Landry · 11-01-2013, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jump start

Hi Bob

I don't think it is the converter because it is on a separate circuit. The breaker in question is marked GEN which I assume is General. The outlets on the back wall, the outlets in the two living room slides and the ceiling fan all have no power. The outlets in the bar counter and in the kitchen all work. The circuit breaker trips immediately. The GFI is wired separately and is on its own breaker. Not sure where to start. Help.......

Start where it has been suggested. The GEN breaker may be marked that way because it could go to multiple loads. Mine goes to the converter and there's no reason why your's would be wired differently. Disconnecting loads one at a time at the breaker panel is going to be easier than dropping the coroplast under the trailer, and with zero information from KS, you don't know what you are looking for anyway.

Jump start · 11-02-2013, 01:36 PM

Well, we have a circuit breaker that is marked specifically Converter so I lowered the underbelly just a little bit on the backside underneath the large slide. This is what I found - see photo attached. I can fix this pretty easy with a new junction box but I worry what might have caused this and if it might happen again. This could have been worse than what it was if something flammable had been near the box.

Bob Landry · 11-02-2013, 04:41 PM

Is that a junction box? It looks like a surge suppressor.

**JRTJH** · 11-02-2013, 04:46 PM

Bob, That is a connection box (plug) with a self locking device. It is used on 15 and 20 Amp circuits in double wide mobile homes to connect the two halves together (electrically)

I have two that I've found in my Cougar. One connects the main slide 115 VAC outlet to the main chassis wiring (inside the lower housing of the pantry in the rear corner of my trailer) and one under the sink connecting the wiring running to the refrigerator outlet box.

There may be more, but that's all I've found so far. I haven't pulled the converter to see what's back there, but if there's any more, I'd bet they are located back there.

I'd bet, that like mine, Jump Start's "connector" is used to connect the flex wiring for the slide outlet to the "main frame" AC wiring.

outwest · 11-02-2013, 06:41 PM

my guess is that there was a slightly loose connection where wires connect in jct box (either came that way from factory, from wire being bent back and forth when slide operated, or simply from jostling around going down road), it sat there arcing at the loose connection, until it finally burned up. Glad there was no resulting fire.

Had similar happen with an old trailer that had 3-way that stayed plugged in on an outlet. After several years of up and down the road, the outlet box melted. And have had some of those replacement cord plugs you can buy at store do same thing after years of plugging and unplugging - opened one up and the screws that wires attach to were loose after years of use.

Since trailer isn't very old, I'd suspect poor work from factory, rather than wire flexing at box from use or travel.

**JRTJH** · 11-02-2013, 06:53 PM

Outwest,

I was thinking the same thing. From the picture posted, it looks like the Romex has burned at the top of the connector. It may have been that the Molex connector wasn't secure in the "basement space" and as the slide was moved in and out it pulled the connector with it causing the Romex to bend just a little where it enters the connector. Over the years (it may not take too many years) the copper wire and insulation in the Romex fatigued and broke away shorting out and causing the arcs and sparks to occur.

I think the ones in my Cougar are secured to the floor, but I am going to make a note to double check them the next time I have the access panel off the water pump cubbyhole.

Seeing the burned Romex and knowing that if anything combustible had been nearby, there may not be an RV to take pictures of. Frightening to see !!!!!

outwest · 11-02-2013, 07:07 PM

Agreed, very scary situation. Since could be from flexing each time slide moved (no idea how often OP opened/closed side) I'm going to be sure to watch mine next time I move the slide (trailer in for repairs right now) and make sure it's not flexing back and forth at junction box as slide travels in/out. Mine has two secured to floor for slide.

jsmith948 · 11-03-2013, 05:00 AM

If there is no way to avoid the romex flexing or bending back and forth, couldn't the OP use stranded type romex such as is found on submersible well pimps? Just thinking out loud - Jack

Bob Landry · 11-03-2013, 05:17 AM

That is an excellent application for marine grade wire. Not only is it stranded to resist fatigue, it's tinned to resist corrosion and it's AWG so you get the maximin current carrying capability. Household romex should never be used in an application that gets frequent flexing.
Also, when I build cables or replace plug connectors, I always use marinco connectors or the white ones from Home Depot or Lowes. If a heat spot starts to develop, the plastic around the prongs will always be the first to discolor from the heat and it's much easier to detect a problem before the prongs actually start burning and creating a fire hazard.

Terrydactile · 11-03-2013, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsmith948

If there is no way to avoid the romex flexing or bending back and forth, couldn't the OP use stranded type romex such as is found on submersible well pimps? Just thinking out loud - Jack

I was thinking the same thing, romex should not be flexing at all. If it were mine, I would stabilize that wiring if it was possible, if not I would replace it with something more suitable for flexing. Maybe you could even eliminate that connection plug.

Bob Landry · 11-03-2013, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrydactile

I was thinking the same thing, romex should not be flexing at all. If it were mine, I would stabilize that wiring if it was possible, if not I would replace it with something more suitable for flexing. Maybe you could even eliminate that connection plug.

I agree with eliminating the connecting plug. I would never use one where it is constantly exposed to the elements because there's really no way to water proof it besides painting it with liquid electrical tape and there's no need to go through all of that with a connection that is going to be permanent. A properly done crimp connection with heat shrink connector will literally last forever

Jump start · 11-03-2013, 07:38 AM

I will be sending the photo onto the KS after talking with customer service in the morning. I will let you know what they say.

**JRTJH** · 11-03-2013, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jump start

I will be sending the photo onto the KS after talking with customer service in the morning. I will let you know what they say.

I wonder if this may qualify as a reportable safety defect under NHTSA criteria? I'm sure that if there is one of these connectors flexing there are others that were mounted the same way on the assembly line.

ktmracer · 11-03-2013, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Bob, That is a connection box (plug) with a self locking device. It is used on 15 and 20 Amp circuits in double wide mobile homes to connect the two halves together (electrically)

I have two that I've found in my Cougar. One connects the main slide 115 VAC outlet to the main chassis wiring (inside the lower housing of the pantry in the rear corner of my trailer) and one under the sink connecting the wiring running to the refrigerator outlet box.

There may be more, but that's all I've found so far. I haven't pulled the converter to see what's back there, but if there's any more, I'd bet they are located back there.

I'd bet, that like mine, Jump Start's "connector" is used to connect the flex wiring for the slide outlet to the "main frame" AC wiring.

yup, that's the typical "vampire" type point contact junction box used in RV wiring. Virtually all trailers with 120V box in a slide will have one for each slide. Connects the romex to stranded wire going to the slide. I replaced mine when I got the trailer with a "real" metal junction box and weatherproof wing nuts like what is required by code in a S&B house.

BTW the same style "vampire" connection is used in almost all the other 120V outlets as well, not a std outlet with screw terminals.

Bad thing is that with the point contact, current density is very high at the contact point and can lead to increased resistance and eventually a failed connection under heavy current load, or loads with high inrush current.

AFAIK this style connector is no longer allowed by NEC for S&B houses.

Bob Landry · 11-03-2013, 12:43 PM

Contacting Keystone? On a four year old trailer? Be sure to let us know how that works out for you.

Their response will be that is part of the owners responsibility to do routine maintenance checks, just like the roof and caulking around windows and door. The only rub with that is that is is part of their electrical system and they would not have told you where it was located, citing reasons of liability and concern for the safety of their customers. Or, depending what customer no-service rep you talk to, assuming that you can even get past the receptionist that screens their calls, you'll be told that they can't tell you where to look because there are no design drawings available. Many of us have already been down that rocky road and have given up on their cust service department as simply being a very bad joke.. Good luck..

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