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Old 12-04-2016, 07:37 AM   #1
rcwyatt
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Keystone Workmanship

Just purchased a 2yr old Keystone 252BH. Made a few observations going thru cleaning and such. Things found: J-steel couch only fastened down on one side; hinges on queen bed, left hinge on top of platform, right hinge under platform; fresh water sensors not connected; numerous screws driven in sideways; utilities coming thru the floor with no sealant around them; one small dot of silicone in the boot for the tv antenna. There aren't any apparent design defects that I found so it seems that all this stuff is assembler oriented. My last unit was a Jayco and I have to say the quality of assembly was a lot better. Is this common with the Keystone brand? I have no problem with correcting all of these problems but it seems to me that the company should take more pride in their workmanship.
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:11 AM   #2
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Re: Keystone Workmanship

Welcome to the forum
Working as a tech in the RV industry, I can assure you that the issues you have found on your particular Keystone product can be found in numerous other brands including Jayco. Some brands do seem to come to the dealership put together better, but even the $300,000.00 motor homes I have worked on have come with screws askew, roof sealant with voids, etc.

Granted the higher end units don't seem to have as many issues, keep in mind that RV's are still built by humans not robots like automobiles and contain a lot of different components. I can't say I've seen sealed utilities in a great majority of units.

Overall I can say that Keystone does better than most but not as good as some manufacturers. If you purchased your unit from a dealer, I can say the sensor issue should have been found and corrected before you got it. The boot on the coax is often not secured with anything so a dab of silicone was probably someone's "fix", dicor sealant is generally accepted for use on the roof.

I understand your frustration, I hope you enjoy your trailer for years to come. Working on these things has given me a whole new perspective on RV's in general. Would I buy another Keystone? Yeah, very good product for the price.
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:57 AM   #3
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Re: Keystone Workmanship

As an owner of a brand new Keystone T.H. (Impact 303) and further, an owner who has never owned a camping trailer/T.H./motor coach/etc, I was a bit surprised at the lackof attention to detail that goes into one of these. As I said, I'm new to all of this, but sloppy workmanship is sloppy workmanship.....whether I'm new to it or not.

I shared in another thread about buying a brand new T.H., towing it home, then having some issues with one of the slide outs. As I had never worked on one of them, or even knew HOW they worked, I spent some time researching and downloading info that would help me to do an adjustment on the slide and fix it. A couple of days ago, I was crawling around under the trailer looking for a good spot to mount a tube for storing the dump hose that I've yet to buy. I saw a loom that was stretched very tight. Turns out it wasn't an electrical loom, but the gas lines going from the 30 gal tank in the rear, up to the front of the trailer for the fuel supply to the generator. I was able to relocate a bit and got some slack in the lines. While under the trailer, I've noticed several places where electrical connections are pretty poorly taped and wires not tied up and kind of just dangling. While this kind of stuff isn't necessarily "major issues", it does reflect on the carelessness/sloppy workmanship that was used in the assembly of the T.H. Are the other manufacturers any better?......worse?.....I don't know, as I have nothing to reference as this is my first one. Hopefully, I won't encounter anything that is major, but who knows. It kind of gives me an uneasy feeling and I'm trying to not let that hamper my new enthusiasm for the trailer and how it will be used.
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:42 AM   #4
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Re: Keystone Workmanship

A lifelong friend of mine recently retired, invested in a new $1.2 million motorhome, an enclosed trailer and a new sports car to tow behind his new "house". They aren't going to full time, but probably will live in it 4-6 months a year. It's one of those "contraptions" with everything from "full side slides" to "heated marble floors", so I'd have expected it to be "well constructed". While they were here visiting for a week this summer, he and I crawled around, in and under his "new toy". I found the same type construction, the same kind of "nail gun/pin gun" finish in his "markedly more expensive" motorhome as was used to build my "much cheaper fifth wheel".

Sure, he has "solid granite countertops" while I have "granite look laminate" but both are "fastened to the cupboards with the same #2 Roberts screws, haphazardly pointed in the general direction of the intended fastening point. His "vast storage compartments" have "individual heat ducts" in each of them, but the same "unwoven carpet" is glued to the floor in his coach storage areas as is used in my Cougar, and yes, there's glue in the corners of his, just like mine. His came with LED light fixtures, I had to replace my light bulbs with LED's, but both his fixtures and mine are "not perfectly aligned on the ceiling"... I will say that his "mood lighting (complete with mirrors on the ceiling)" is impressive to sit and watch as it changes colors, but the controller for it didn't work while they were here, it needed to be replaced when they got back home. His Spartan chassis was impressive, but the dash was "crooked" when you sat in the living room and looked over the "solid oak conversation table" that had a scratch on two legs (found on delivery).

So, what's my point? It doesn't seem like you'd be any "better off" or "worse off" buying a "million dollar luxury coach" or a "entry level extra lite trailer"... They are both pretty much subject to the same kind of construction and both are serviced by the same technician at the dealership, so the repairs are going to be fairly equal in time spent and successful fixes......

No, I'm not justifying this kind of manufacturing/service, just stating what I've seen and experienced. I don't expect it's going to change much (if at all) as long as consumers keep "standing in line" to buy more......
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Old 12-04-2016, 11:23 AM   #5
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Re: Keystone Workmanship

That ^^^^^ is just UNBELIEVABLE! $1.2M motor coach and it's put together crappy! WOW!
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Old 12-04-2016, 04:55 PM   #6
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Re: Keystone Workmanship

Just for grins and giggles we went through some new motorhomes here in the Portland area, $150 - $500,000 and didn't see anything we were impressed with more than our Alpine! We did find a lot of shoddy workmanship and way too much fluff lighting in our opinion. We find that the more you pay the more fluff lighting you get.... under the counters, over the slides, around the window coverings, around the tv's etc. etc. after awhile they start to look like a Las Vegas parlor, from what I've seen in the movies anyway!!!

We always get the comment... "your fifthwheel looks just like a home!"
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:05 PM   #7
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trip

Just returned from a 3 week trip south. No real big issues surfaced. Did notice some swelling of the face frames on the cabinets. I cannot understand why they used the vinyl covered paper fiberboard for the cabinet frames. They are not covered with anything on the back side which makes them wick moisture and swell, especially near the floor. I am a retired cabinet maker and wouldn't use this heavy useless junk on anything, especially in a "ultra-light rv". Also we noticed a lot of bouncing when walking around the camper. A question: Would heavier scissor jack stabilizers help with this? The ones on it are cheap lightweight stamped steel. I have read that putting these jacks closer to the axles helps. Any suggestions appreciated.
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Old 02-02-2017, 05:13 PM   #8
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You could try a set of BAL X-chocks. They helped to stabilize our TT. Will never get rid of all the motion.
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Old 02-02-2017, 09:18 PM   #9
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Unless you are ready to pony up BIG bucks, paper covered pressed wood is very common in just about every RV. Overall weight is a big factor these days and who can make the the lightest trailer with the most stuff in it seems to get the most consumer dollars.

Getting the trailer up off the suspension will go a long ways towards elimination of the "on the ocean" feeling. There are a variety of products that help, but as stated your not going to get rid of all of it. When you level the trailer, if you can get the frame 1-2 inches higher than riding height, it will help a lot. X chocks will help, I don't know if they make them for wide track axles. JT strong arm and Steady fast are two popular stabilizing systems, and are easy to install.
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:23 PM   #10
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I have the Steady fast stabilizers and the one step chocks on my camper and they make a big difference.

Definitely DW approved.

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Old 02-03-2017, 05:43 AM   #11
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Would heavier scissor jacks make any difference? The ones on it are very flimsy.
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Old 02-03-2017, 10:02 AM   #12
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You've asked two times whether heavier scissors jacks will make your trailer stable. The short answer is no, they won't. The reason I say that is because there are multiple issues that cause the "instability" (floor bounce) you get when your trailer is "stabilized for camping".

First, there is a "cantilevered frame" under your trailer. With lightweight trailers, smaller, thinner frames are used. In order to reduce weight and still maintain a frame that's "level when loaded", your trailer frame is "curved upward" at the ends. Then, when the structure of the trailer was added during assembly, the weight of the walls, roof, appliances, etc, push down on the frame while the tires push up in the center. This "springs" the chassis to a more "horizontal attitude". The frame has a tendency to "spring back to original form" when you place stabilizer jacks under each end, thereby "unloading" the frame. That causes "bounce".

Second, you have 4 springs under your trailer, to each pair of springs, an axle is attached, at each end of the axle are two "bouncy balloons" called tires. As you walk inside your RV, those tires and springs will "bounce along with your steps", more or less "in time with the chassis spring bouncing"...

Third, the actual flooring in your RV is mounted to crossmembers (either aluminum or wood, depending on construction) which give with the weight of your footsteps. That "give when walking" will create "movement within the floor" causing the sensation of "bounce".

The above three examples only include movement in the vertical plane (up and down). We haven't even started to discuss "horizontal movement at the ends of the trailer" (yaw) or "sideways movement" when one side is going up and the other side is going down (roll). They also induce the perception of "movement inside the trailer" and are, for most situations, even more difficult to eliminate.

So, placing jacks at the ends of your "spring loaded chassis" while the middle is supported by "springs and balloons" and you walk across the floor that "gives with each step" will cause the sensations of "bounce and instability" inside the RV, regardless of how heavy the jacks at each end might be.

If you truly want to reduce bounce, consider a "steady fast" or a "BAL stabilizer bar" system (or a similar type system) to stabilize the existing jacks, add a mechanism to eliminate tire movement (X-chocks) and/or consider a third set of jacks near the axles/tires to lift them, removing the "spring/tire induced movement".

Honestly, most of us just understand that there will be some movement of the trailer when occupied. You're not going to ever find a means that will stabilize the RV completely and remove all bouncing if there's sufficient movement inside the RV. In other words, if the kids are jumping on the bed in the back, no matter what you do, you'll "bounce in bed" in the front of the trailer. Bouncing can be reduced to an acceptable level in most situations, but there's going to be some remaining "bounce" no matter how hard you try to eliminate it completely.

Putting heavier jacks under the back, in all probability, won't satisfy your "quest for a movement free trailer"......
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Old 02-03-2017, 10:25 AM   #13
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Let's see, I've owned a Mallard by Fleetwood, a Durango by KZ, a Big Country by Heartland, a Raptor by Keystone, and a few others along the way. All had their issues, all had their positives. One in particular was renamed a Big Piece of S**t by the family and was the worst piece of junk I've ever owned. So far I'm pleased with my Raptor, despite some problems here and there. I have a client who has more money than he knows what to do with. He buys and trades $500,000 to $1,000,000 motor coaches like it's nothing. I can't remember one he really liked and wasn't a piece of c**p, and he's always more than happy to point out the problems with them, some minor and some pretty serious, such as the electric shades over the windshield coming down by themselves while he was driving down the freeway, the chassis stopped talking to the body while driving, old window framing being able to be seen looking down the side of the coach when they changed model years and moved the windows, but didn't change the interior framing, on and on and on. He's looked at mine several times and always shakes his head at how much nicer it is than his latest over priced piece of junk. So no, it's not just Keystone, it's all of them. And it's hit or miss if you get a good one or a lemon.

As for your rocking and rolling issue, if it is that detrimental, trade up to something with 6 point hydraulic levers. You can lift it off the ground and play basketball in it and it won't budge. But then you have something else that "can go wrong".

Enjoy your trailer and camping and don't sweat all the small, piddly stuff. Or get a tent.
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Old 02-03-2017, 11:00 AM   #14
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Would heavier scissor jacks make any difference? The ones on it are very flimsy.
The scissor jack/stabilizers aren't meant to support the trailer, which they would have to do to remove the bounce appreciably. They aren't very stout at all; even the electric ones like I have....they bend pretty easily (just forget to raise them and lower the tongue onto the ball with them extended....bend like a pancake and you get to spend almost $700 to replace it)
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Old 03-16-2017, 06:54 AM   #15
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RC, I'm with you on quality issues, but after an extensive search for a TT to full time with,I found quality issues across the industry. We shopped the RV shows for a year and became very confused about what model would best suit our needs. Through our search, I learned of the many craftsmanship issues that you mentioned. So when we found a 2014 Bullet Premier 30REPR in like new condition we thought we had found the perfect TT for our needs. I went over it with a fine tooth comb and found it to be above average quality. But.... To my dismay, I received a recall notice on the AC wiring. I contacted the Keystone Dealer closest to me and was astounded that they would not work on a RV that was not sold by them. I contacted Keystone and received a response that stated that Keystone's Dealer network were independent and had that right. REALLY???? This is really more disturbing to me than the quality issues from the factory. We will be moving around the country and will have to trust the Independent RV techs for my service work. I will be trading for new next year and will certainly take this in consideration. Thor Industries need to get their act together. Disappointed Keystone owner
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:19 AM   #16
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THIS IS MY 2ND KEYSTONE NOCK ON WOOD HAVENT HAD ANY PROBLEMS YET WELCOME TO THE FORUM HAPPY CAMPING
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Old 03-16-2017, 07:23 AM   #17
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RC, I'm with you on quality issues, but after an extensive search for a TT to full time with,I found quality issues across the industry. We shopped the RV shows for a year and became very confused about what model would best suit our needs. Through our search, I learned of the many craftsmanship issues that you mentioned. So when we found a 2014 Bullet Premier 30REPR in like new condition we thought we had found the perfect TT for our needs. I went over it with a fine tooth comb and found it to be above average quality. But.... To my dismay, I received a recall notice on the AC wiring. I contacted the Keystone Dealer closest to me and was astounded that they would not work on a RV that was not sold by them. I contacted Keystone and received a response that stated that Keystone's Dealer network were independent and had that right. REALLY???? This is really more disturbing to me than the quality issues from the factory. We will be moving around the country and will have to trust the Independent RV techs for my service work. I will be trading for new next year and will certainly take this in consideration. Thor Industries need to get their act together. Disappointed Keystone owner

You ran into a bad dealer. You need to look around. I've not come across a Keystone dealer that would not work on my RV.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:20 AM   #18
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.... To my dismay, I received a recall notice on the AC wiring. I contacted the Keystone Dealer closest to me and was astounded that they would not work on a RV that was not sold by them. I contacted Keystone and received a response that stated that Keystone's Dealer network were independent and had that right. REALLY???? This is really more disturbing to me than the quality issues from the factory. We will be moving around the country and will have to trust the Independent RV techs for my service work. I will be trading for new next year and will certainly take this in consideration. Thor Industries need to get their act together. Disappointed Keystone owner
If you can use wire cutters and twist on some wire nuts, you can do the recall yourself.

I did mine, using information from this forum, in about 10 minutes.

Let me know if you have any questions.

-Brian
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:12 AM   #19
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B-O-B'03, Thanks, I did the research and repair myself too. But my main concern is with the Dealer Network. I am concerned that if the refusal of dealerships to service RV's that are not purchased from them becomes common, the resale value of my used RV will drop dramatically. I like to keep my vehicles up to date and assume I will do the same with my TT. If you cannot get a used RV serviced it becomes a pretty big problem and will make a used unit less attractive to a potential buyer.
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Old 03-16-2017, 09:56 AM   #20
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B-O-B'03, Thanks, I did the research and repair myself too. But my main concern is with the Dealer Network. I am concerned that if the refusal of dealerships to service RV's that are not purchased from them becomes common, the resale value of my used RV will drop dramatically. I like to keep my vehicles up to date and assume I will do the same with my TT. If you cannot get a used RV serviced it becomes a pretty big problem and will make a used unit less attractive to a potential buyer.
Hi Uncle Dougie,

I think most/all dealers will work on a trailer not purchased from them, if the customer is paying for it.

Some dealers, I have heard, are unwilling to do warranty work on trailers not purchased from them... there is a difference.

I think this recall falls into the same category as warranty work and in my opinion, probably does not pay as well as "retail" customers.

-Brian
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