Upgrade rim size and tires

[CWtheMan]

Earlier in this thread I referenced the way to find this link. Remember, the following reference is out of context because it is .6 of 7.

https://www.govregs.com/regulations/...7_section567.6

Those of you that regularly read my posts know my agenda is to post it the way it’s supposed to be done.

Because most of the regulations and standards rely on user adherence, it puts a lot of pressure on enforcement and will not normally come into play unless an industry standard has been violated and found during some sort of vehicle inspection. When found in violation you’ll probably hear the comment “you shouldn’t have done that” just before judgment is rendered.

After many years of posting in threads like this one, it has become very clear to me that few consumers know how to read government regulations and standards. Here’s a Hypothetical: A vehicle certification label lists the installed tires to be ST225/75R15 LRD and they are mounted on rims 15X6. The recommended inflation pressure for the tires is 65 PSI cold. A NHTSA mandated entry to the vehicle’s owner’s manual states – in part – that the consumer needs to get approval from the vehicle manufacturer before changing the OE tires designated size. The trailer was built to minimum standards in accordance with FMVSS (standards). The vehicle manufacturer was not required to use wheels/rims with more certified inflation pressure than required by the OE tires. For the vehicle manufacturer to recommend tires with a higher PSI value than the OE wheels are certified to provide would require them to provide new wheels/rims.

Because tire load range is not part of a tire’s designated size, vehicle manufacturers may provide wheels certified to the highest load range within a designated size. I wouldn’t bet on that with the ST235/80R16 because there are 5 load ranges in that designated size and the vehicle manufacturer has an opportunity to notify NHTSA of the highest load range used for any particular fitment. Remember, load range, not load index, is the official load capacity indicator for LT & ST tires.

[Sarge2]

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

[traynoral]

Originally Posted by Sarge2

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

If you can would depend on a few factors. Including but not limited to sidewall, height, and tire to tire (if tandem axle) clearances. Bolt pattern is also something that would need to be checked.

Unless you are looking for more ground clearance or if you feel the stock size does not offer a safe margin of weight capacity buffer compared to the GVWR of the trailer, then I do not believe that moving up in size would offer you much benefit.

That being said, moving to a better brand/model of tire is most likely a good idea, assuming (pretty safe assumption) that the stock tires are not that good.

[hornet28]

Lets see. 1941 Ford, Nova subframe, chopped top, other than stock size wheels and tires, shaved door handles, tinted glass, converted to 4 whl disc brakes, 454 BBC, 700R4 automatic, and the list goes on. In the opinion of some on here it's illegal. I have too wonder why then a well know old car insurance company has insured it for $60K +

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Sarge2

My new 2600 passport has 14" tires... can I go up to 15" or even 16" and would it be worth it? I really haven't checked the tire brand but I'm sure they are not "top of the line" lol... wonder if I should hold off until I'm actually doing some cross country traveling...Any input would be appreciated...
Sarge

Your "limiting factor" I believe is finding wheels with enough weight capacity for larger tires. All the 14" wheels I've seen are 5 lug design. To "upgrade significantly" would require wheels with 6 lugs. That would mean a hub change (if you can find suitable hubs with 6 lugs to fit your axles) or changing out axles, wheels and tires....

You can "go up a bit" with 15" 5 lug wheels, but you'll be limited significantly until you can get into the 15" 6 lug wheels/hubs...

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by hornet28

Lets see. 1941 Ford, Nova subframe, chopped top, other than stock size wheels and tires, shaved door handles, tinted glass, converted to 4 whl disc brakes, 454 BBC, 700R4 automatic, and the list goes on. In the opinion of some on here it's illegal. I have too wonder why then a well know old car insurance company has insured it for $60K +

Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.

[fjr vfr]

Here's an example right on our forum of a lifted trailer. Form these pictures I would say it is every bit as strong as before and probably stronger than OEM.
I have seen many similar examples over the years. I wouldn't hesitate to do it, as long as it's done right.



https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...hp?albumid=972

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by fjr vfr

Here's an example right on our forum of a lifted trailer. Form these pictures I would say it is every bit as strong as before and probably stronger than OEM.
I have seen many similar examples over the years. I wouldn't hesitate to do it, as long as it's done right.



https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...hp?albumid=972

Not every Tom, Dick & Harry would have the skills or mechanical knowledge even think about a project like that, which by the way is a very good modification. Plus there are companies that do exactly the same.
If the same folks that are "certifying" RVs now would look under that particular RV I'd bet most would never recognize the modifications or a change in tire/wheel sizes. Most need to look a little closer at some of the stuff they roll out the factory door that have been "certified".
I fully understand the regulations, but if it's certified for XX then the owner upgrades to XXX or even XXXX how could that in any way cause harm or be unsafe. Now if certified for XX & the individual changes to X then I can see that's a problem.
Usually the factory certifies at XX & installs XX not one tiny bit more than absolutely necessary. Example a 10k GVWR RV with "certified" tandem 4400lb axles = 8800, yes I know minus tongue weight, but why not use tandem 5200lb axles.

[hornet28]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

Probably because the owner found a certified modifier to approve it.

No not required. I show this as an example that some don't know all they think they do. As I said in a previous comment, some here are so hung up on how they interpret what they read and are told they wouldn't change the wattage of the light bulb in a lamp. They continually preach from their supposed lofty knowledge about most anything and of course are never wrong.
I speak as owner and co-builder of the 41 Ford

[notanlines]

Hornet, very nice ride! Might I ask how many miles on it since your 'work' was completed? We try to make a number of shows every year, including the Back to the 50's in St Paul, world's largest. Certainly fun to walk around the 12-15,000 cars and gawk.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by hornet28

No not required. I show this as an example that some don't know all they think they do. As I said in a previous comment, some here are so hung up on how they interpret what they read and are told they wouldn't change the wattage of the light bulb in a lamp. They continually preach from their supposed lofty knowledge about most anything and of course are never wrong.
I speak as owner and co-builder of the 41 Ford

As altered does it conform to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety, Bumper and Theft Prevention Standards?

You do know this is a RV trailer thread?

The regulations that were in place when the trailer was manufactured are much different than those for autos 75 years old.

[hornet28]

notanlines, it has 99600 mi on it. Never been to Back To The 50's. But the car has been driven to Ca. twice, Fla. 3 times and also to PEI & Nova Scotia

Cw I know it's a trailer forum. I was making a point that just because something is different than manufactured doesn't mean it's illegal. Will you ever understand that? I'm done and I think others understand why

[lunge motorsport]

Greetings
In response to Jim"s question...To tow level is a requirement for Torsion style axles. There is no equalization between for and aft axles on a tandem Torsion axle rig so un level towing would put a greater load on one of the axles. In my case since I upgraded from 4400lb axles to 7000lb axles it wouldn't probably matter too much unless it was an extreme attitude (hahaha extreme attitude, are you listening Calvin?).

I boondock a lot and get into some pretty rough areas at times. I have seen near contact with the frame rails at 7'' of clearance. I anticipated this during my calc's and built it into my design. My rig tows absolutely level on the highway and tracks even better due to the wheel, axle, and tire combo I have chosen.

Calvin...No I am not a certified modifier for the record. I'm curious though, did you even look at the photo's in the album I referenced before you made the comment? BTW, thank you for your service Sir.


Cheers

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by lunge motorsport

Greetings
In response to Jim"s question...To tow level is a requirement for Torsion style axles. There is no equalization between for and aft axles on a tandem Torsion axle rig so un level towing would put a greater load on one of the axles. In my case since I upgraded from 4400lb axles to 7000lb axles it wouldn't probably matter too much unless it was an extreme attitude (hahaha extreme attitude, are you listening Calvin?).

I boondock a lot and get into some pretty rough areas at times. I have seen near contact with the frame rails at 7'' of clearance. I anticipated this during my calc's and built it into my design. My rig tows absolutely level on the highway and tracks even better due to the wheel, axle, and tire combo I have chosen.

Calvin...No I am not a certified modifier for the record. I'm curious though, did you even look at the photo's in the album I referenced before you made the comment? BTW, thank you for your service Sir.


Cheers

I really wanted to back out of this thread because I'm a "by the rules" writer and many that modify are not willing to go by the rules. Therefore I'm just a thorn in their butt.

Regardless of increased axle capacity, the vehicle certified GAWRs remain unchanged. Vehicle GAWRs and GVWR can only be changed by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier.

Changing wheels/tires to something larger than what is depicted on the certification label is a misapplication if not approved by the vehicle manufacturer. (That's in the Keystone owner's manual).

It looks like you did some welding on your trailer's frame. That would require two certifications. Is the welder certified to do the welding and did the finished modification meet with the approval of the frame builder?

[gearhead]

Well, this was a good Management of Change meeting. Sounds about the same as the many I sat through. The same issue of common sense fighting change of someone else's design.
Just changing tires would seem like a no brainer. But, think about unintended consequences of other mods. Look for that new weak link.
Kinda like adding larger piping to a huge cooling water tower, until it collapsed. The look on that production managers face when I told him..."Russ the cooling water tower is falling down". That was a multi million dollar fix. Fortunately no injuries.
You have to take it seriously.
If I had some welding done on a critical component I would select the welder carefully and at least do a dye penetrant test and maybe a wet mag particle inspection. Lippert most likely doesn't, but I would.

[flybouy]

Gearhead I understand and agree about the unintended consequences. It mostly goes back to common sense. In my thinking, if an axel, let's say has a 3k rating with 14" rims. If that same axle is available with identical parts (I.e. breaks, bearings) with 15" rims then increasing from 14 to 15 should be acceptable. If not, then it warrants further investigating.

One of the most common mistakes among "back yard" modifiers is the mounting of the "big rims" (22" +) and huge tires on otherwise stock suspensions. The increased rotating mass often results in brake and bearing premature wear and failures.

The possible "unintended consequences" of amatures welding on frames can lead to catastrophic failure. A certified welder non't turn on a cheap "buzz box" and use a universal stick to apply some "bubble gum". He will know what metals he's welding, their thickness, the proper setting for the material (ac or DC, amperage,polarity, MiG or tig, etc) to get the proper penetration. He will also know if he can make a complete pass or if he needs to "stitch" the welds with spot welding to control the heat so that he doesn't compromise the metal strength, hardness, or malleability.

The "back yard" welder may do a fine job of fixing their lawn mower or creating some law art but I don't want to follow a 10k trailer lifted by someone who "thought they knew what they doing".

JMHO

[gearhead]

Yes sir, vendors welding procedures was one of our bigger issues in the previous life. From the initial Positive Material Identification to post weld inspection. We sat around a conference table many days with our in house welders, metallurgists, and rotating equipment engineers documenting weld procedures for vendors. We thought our own shop welders were unequaled in Houston's petrochem industry, but having work done in outside shops was always a worry. We did a lot of our own rotating equipment repair but depending on several factors we would also use outside shops. That required a lot of documentation and visits. A lot of the repair shops would send out, sub contract, the welding work and some other tasks. We had to prevent that from being "covered up" when the job was complete.
I was responsible for 400+ pumps of all imaginable sizes, 100+ steam turbines, 200+ forced air coolers, 4 big reciprocating compressors, and one high speed (14,000RPM+) centrifugal hydrogen compressor. Anywhere between 5-50 out of service at any one time. Flying by the seat of your pants regarding repairs would results in bad things happening and putting the surrounding public at risk. If my boss lady thought I was going cowboy on repair standards I would have retired from somewhere else.
Being fat dumb and happy modifying a RV can lead to bad things. But doing your own due diligence and seeking the advice of others could result in good things.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

I really wanted to back out of this thread because I'm a "by the rules" writer and many that modify are not willing to go by the rules. Therefore I'm just a thorn in their butt.

Regardless of increased axle capacity, the vehicle certified GAWRs remain unchanged. Vehicle GAWRs and GVWR can only be changed by the vehicle manufacturer or a certified modifier.

Changing wheels/tires to something larger than what is depicted on the certification label is a misapplication if not approved by the vehicle manufacturer. (That's in the Keystone owner's manual).

It looks like you did some welding on your trailer's frame. That would require two certifications. Is the welder certified to do the welding and did the finished modification meet with the approval of the frame builder?

Calvin,

What you "postulate" may be "correct in the grand scheme of "bureaucratic bulls**t", it honestly bears little credence to reality.

Michigan, Colorado, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas (the only states where I've actually registered and licensed a "home built trailer", do not require any "federal certification of "as built by the manufacturer".... In fact, building a trailer from bed frame rails, an old axle and a "cut off coupler from an old trailer" complete with wheels and tires of my choice has been registered and licensed in every one of those states. When I built them, obviously there was no serial number, so in most of the states, I had to go to the state police headquarters to have a serial number stamped on the tongue. Then, back to DMV where they processed a title, a registration and handed me a license plate... Perfectly "LEGAL" to tow it on any road in the USA. I've never had any "motor vehicle outfitter certification" nor have I ever been a "certified welder" (although I did take night classes at the local high school in Denver to learn how to weld).

While there may be some "grand bureaucratic scheme to control vehicle/trailer modifications", those burdensome requirements were completely ignored in every state in which I've "done my own thing and built a trailer" and NO state has had absolutely any reluctance to title, register and provide a license plate to hang on the back... In every case, the only requirement was to "prove that I didn't steal it before they would register it"...

Of course, as usual, I suppose I could have spent an "adult lifetime" trying to navigate the bureaucratic bulls**t, but I'd have to ask, WHY ?????

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Calvin,

What you "postulate" may be "correct in the grand scheme of "bureaucratic bulls**t", it honestly bears little credence to reality.

Michigan, Colorado, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas (the only states where I've actually registered and licensed a "home built trailer", do not require any "federal certification of "as built by the manufacturer".... In fact, building a trailer from bed frame rails, an old axle and a "cut off coupler from an old trailer" complete with wheels and tires of my choice has been registered and licensed in every one of those states. When I built them, obviously there was no serial number, so in most of the states, I had to go to the state police headquarters to have a serial number stamped on the tongue. Then, back to DMV where they processed a title, a registration and handed me a license plate... Perfectly "LEGAL" to tow it on any road in the USA. I've never had any "motor vehicle outfitter certification" nor have I ever been a "certified welder" (although I did take night classes at the local high school in Denver to learn how to weld).

While there may be some "grand bureaucratic scheme to control vehicle/trailer modifications", those burdensome requirements were completely ignored in every state in which I've "done my own thing and built a trailer" and NO state has had absolutely any reluctance to title, register and provide a license plate to hang on the back... In every case, the only requirement was to "prove that I didn't steal it before they would register it"...

Of course, as usual, I suppose I could have spent an "adult lifetime" trying to navigate the bureaucratic bulls**t, but I'd have to ask, WHY ?????

Home built is not the same as mass manufactured. Home built has to comply with their state's regulations and standards.

Mass built for the public/consumer use requires federal certification. That introduces another set of completely different rules and regulations.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Well, this was a good Management of Change meeting. Sounds about the same as the many I sat through. The same issue of common sense fighting change of someone else's design.
Just changing tires would seem like a no brainer. But, think about unintended consequences of other mods. Look for that new weak link.
Kinda like adding larger piping to a huge cooling water tower, until it collapsed. The look on that production managers face when I told him..."Russ the cooling water tower is falling down". That was a multi million dollar fix. Fortunately no injuries.
You have to take it seriously.
If I had some welding done on a critical component I would select the welder carefully and at least do a dye penetrant test and maybe a wet mag particle inspection. Lippert most likely doesn't, but I would.

^^^^^This x2. "Welding" on a critical component isn't just "welding" like Billy Bob does down at the shop in Podunk. I learned that a long time ago....

Bought a new motorcycle back in about 1970. Just a regular street bike. Ran with a group that had big road Harley's, choppers....the gamut. Several had the foot pegs out front off the frame and I didn't have that. After a couple of road trips that looked like something I wanted. Went to a local welder to see what could be done and he said "sure", I can just weld a bar across those 2 front frame members and you'll have foot pegs, so we did. Fast forward a few months and took it into another shop for some unrelated issue and the VERY first thing the guy did was look at those welds on the 2 front frame members, how they were done, penetration etc. He told me it was a huge miracle those tubes had not just buckled going down the road due to the penetration of the welds. Scared the you know what out of me. Sold the bike with full disclosure to a guy that said he would "reinforce" it then bought another one.

The above is just an example of those unintended consequences from just doing something thinking "it's OK, it's doing what I wanted"; maybe, maybe not. Many things to consider when modifying equipment to achieve a certain goal - you have to think through every action taken to assure it has not affected something else in a negative way.