Trailer tires

[Javi]

Cheap junk is CHEAP JUNK no matter where it is made.. TK tires or for that matter almost any tire that comes standard on a massed produced travel trailer or 5th wheel is CHEAP JUNK..

Replace it sooner rather than later..

I buy new top brand tires such as Carlisle CSL, Goodyear G614, or Sailun S637 every two years and resell the take offs.. I consider it just another expense of owning a trailer and pretty cheap insurance. The Texas heat and our road system make it a no brainer..

[JRTJH]

I've posted these photos several times. They are the "INSIDE" (no way to see or know the problem with tires mounted on a wheel) of my TK tires from back in 2011. Fortunately I decided to change out my TK's for Carlisle Radial Trail RF (the previous version of the Radial Trail HD). Since then, I've changed out 6 sets of Carlisle ST tires and have NEVER seen a "tread/carcass separation" on a Carlisle ST tire.

Three of four TK's had these "inside bubbles"... IMO, they might pass a "minimum standard test" but if you can't identify a failed tire and tow on it until it explodes and destroys your trailer, then what difference does it make whether that brand/model passed some test years ago ???

Having 3 of 4 tires (75% failure rate) was enough for me to NEVER buy another TK tire. And yes, I reported them to NHTSA. Got a "comfirmation of receipt" email and never heard another peep from them.... I won't waste my time with reporting problems again. For me, it turned out to be more work than it was worth with no outcome achieved. So, from here on out, NO TK's and change tires out every 3 years.

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

How is it possible for tires made in China to pass all the same tests that USA made tires must pass. I know this for a fact as i have run the tests. It is also a fact that a majority of RV have one or more tires in overload. This is based on over 10,000 tires measured. When a tire is overloaded it is more likely to fail no matter the country of origin.
But if you don't want to believe science that is up to you. All i do is offer facts.

How do I weigh each individual tire load with commonly available equipment? I don't know how to do that at the common CAT scales. I once heard of owners clubs weighing individual tires at rallies, but not anything more of it.
I assume my 5th is heavier on one side than the other. I bet that huge residential refrigerator, cooktop, oven, pantry, and microwave is heavier than the dinette and 2 recliners. If so, what can I do about it?

[flybouy]

The discussions on significant weight loading differences from tire to tire comes up occasionaly. I've read a bunch of articals where the big class A bus chassis units have issues with this. When I see the material and appliances that go into them I can understand. Marble floors, stone countertops, stone tiled bathroom walls, true residential fridges, and a bunch of stuff in slide outs rigged in the basement for acess on the curb side. Those huge rigs have suspensions and tires that a great bit of extra capacity built in. Often they will air the tires according to the weight being held by that tire position.

While we look inward to our trailers I dont know just how relevant that is. How more does an RV "residential fridge" weight over a gas/electric one? When we first bought our current unit I remember conteplating this same concept. I stood back and thought looking at the "big picture" it seemed to me like the trailer when loaded seemed to me to be faitly even as far as weight distribution.

I realize I'm speaking from my limited personal experience but I have seen the insides of many and varied iterations of all types of campers. I'm not a "gee that looks pretty" sort of observer. Decades of construction managment I guess has enabled my curiosity. I'm the guy in a store that's looking up at the lights, looking at flooring, etc. while my DW is looking at the merchandise. My DW will often tell me to "stop dissecting the building and give her my opinion" on whatever it is she's looking at.

I read these posts and often think is the percentage of weight difference really that significant? We're not talking meeting the weight & balance envelope for an aircraft. Every vehichle I've ever seen when significantly loading in one direction it will lean in that direction. I've yet to see a trailer lean to one side. Deploying the slides is different as the force of leverage then comes into play.

I have yet to read any scientific evidence where the conclusions of failed tires came from the "heavy side" of the trailer. We dont even know what side or what make unit the tires that failed according to the NTSB or the self proclaimed "tire experts" All I read here is the constant mantra that CAUSE, not suspected cause, or likely cause is tire overloading. If the date code survives it revels when the tire was manufactured, not installed or used much less HOW they were used.

In my mind, testing a brand new tire, postulating on why a tire failed is just as anecdotal as an opinion on "china bombs" being unreliable. "Tested 10,000 tires"? Really? Was that 10,000 Trailer King tires? What model, size, and ply rating? How does a that testing relate to actual use? I recall back when when radial steel belted tires first became popular. Those tires "passed all the test" and yet there were many, many failures. One such failure came close to killing me and my yet to be in-laws on a highway outside of Boston.

I just replaced my Carlisle tires yesterday with a second set of Carlisle. The set removed was almost 6 yrs old. Visually, inside and out the looked new. I've had 2 trailers with TKs or same company different name tires that were replaced at about 1/2 the age and milage. Both of those sets looked like John's pictures, blistered and bubbled inside. The tech that replaced my tires said it was a shame to replace them. He felt they had several years of life left given the condition of all 4 tires. The tech has been an RV tech for 20+ years and only does suspension work.

Maybe I'm not so concerned because I went up capacity rating and I'm comfortable with my tire choice, choice being the important word there. While "incidental", the overwhelming amount of people reporting tire failures are from tires manufactured by the companies and factories in SE Asia. The Carlise tires seem to be the exception. So, given the reporting and the personal experience I chose to replace my Carlise with the same tires. Everyone has the freedom to choose their personal prefrence. For me, that choice was clear. For reliabiliy, cost, and availabily it was the Carlisle Radial Trail HD 225/75R15 117M 10-ply for my application. YMMV

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by jasin1

Maybe it’s because the tires that we are talking about pass the MINIMUM standard tests for safety and are tested while they are just off the assembly line.
The better tires ..goodyear,Carlisle,sailun etc may far surpass the minimal standards for safety, performance and longevity.

Do the tire engineeers test for maximum performance? There must be a reason that nascar, F1 and off-road enthusiasts/ racers choose name brand tires and manufacturers.

Do the engineers ever do a 1 year ,2 year same test of a group of tires from different manufacturers and see how they perform after being exposed to the sun? How the rubber degrades faster in some brands then others?

If I was getting open heart surgery I’d want the surgeon who scored the highest in medical school…not the one that just barely passed

I won't comment on most of the post except to point out that for most professional race series there is a contract between the tire company and the race sanctioning body such that only a single brand tire ia allowed to run. These contracts are sometimes multi-year.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

I won't comment on most of the post except to point out that for most professional race series there is a contract between the tire company and the race sanctioning body such that only a single brand tire ia allowed to run. These contracts are sometimes multi-year.

Maybe a poor example with race tires…my point was people choose reliable brands when choosing quality.

Why wouldn’t you comment on anything else in the post?

Do the tires just get a pass/fail or do they get a score?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by stevencina

I use a digital tire gauge and also have tire monitors they are both accurite. I keep the tires covered when not in use and park on wood in the storage area,
I have had an occasional blow out over the years but never have I had a complete tread peeled off the tire and damage the RV. The 3 tires that exploded on the last trip all blew the same, tread peeled right off in exactly the same place in a straight line following the tread line. I did not drive on the flat as I pulled over as soon as they blew. Average driving speed 65-70.

Yes the Interply Shear forces on multi-axle trailers runs about 24% higher than if the identical tire were used on a motor vehicle. This plus the significant increase in claimed load capacity (when trailer application should be 24% lower capacity) are significant reasons why they do not last as long as other tires. It is the Interply Shear that can result is belt separations.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by gearhead

How do I weigh each individual tire load with commonly available equipment? I don't know how to do that at the common CAT scales. I once heard of owners clubs weighing individual tires at rallies, but not anything more of it.
I assume my 5th is heavier on one side than the other. I bet that huge residential refrigerator, cooktop, oven, pantry, and microwave is heavier than the dinette and 2 recliners. If so, what can I do about it?

You do not have to measure the load on each tire as even knowing the axle load would allow you to estimate that one end is supporting 51 or 52% of the total axle load.

[JRTJH]

To add to Marshal's post:

From what I can tell, the "SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE" between Carlisle tires manufactured in china and Trailer King tires manufactured in china is the plant managment/supervision...

Carlisle built a tire plant in china (to take advantage of cheaper labor). Carlisle runs the plant, supervises the manufacturing process, contracts/manages the labor force, the tire production and the quality control of the end product...

Trailer King contracted tires from a china owned tire plant, that china runs, supervises the process, manages the labor force, the tire production and the quality control of the end product... TK contracts to have "shiploads of ST tires" delivered to a port on the west coast and TK sends those tires to their warehouses throughout the US. Carlisle, builds their product in china, ships it to the US and sells it under their own brand, "from start to finish"....

So, the difference is "TK buys chinese tires to sell to you"

"Carlisle builds tires in china to sell to you"....

BOTH TK's and Carlisle "meet minimum standards". One company accepts a 5 or 7 or 10% failure rate as long as profits stay in the acceptable range, the other isn't satisfied with a 3% failure rate and strives to lower that rate to improve performance.

See the difference ??? I sure do....

[gearhead]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

You do not have to measure the load on each tire as even knowing the axle load would allow you to estimate that one end is supporting 51 or 52% of the total axle load.

I'm going to have to think about that.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by jasin1

Maybe it’s because the tires that we are talking about pass the MINIMUM standard tests for safety and are tested while they are just off the assembly line.
The better tires ..goodyear,Carlisle,sailun etc may far surpass the minimal standards for safety, performance and longevity.

Do the tire engineeers test for maximum performance? There must be a reason that nascar, F1 and off-road enthusiasts/ racers choose name brand tires and manufacturers.

Do the engineers ever do a 1 year ,2 year same test of a group of tires from different manufacturers and see how they perform after being exposed to the sun? How the rubber degrades faster in some brands then others?

If I was getting open heart surgery I’d want the surgeon who scored the highest in medical school…not the one that just barely passed

OK since some didn't like my only answering the race tire statement.


So exactly how would you test for "Maximum Performance"? Remembering that the DOT tests require that ALL tires sold be capable of passing the specified tests. Not 50% or even 90% but 100%.


How would you adjust for a consumer that constantly drove while the tires were overloaded? How much overload should tires be tested for? Where do you draw the line and can you guarantee that all consumers would accept the costs associated with such a tire? You can get better performance today by running tires with greater load capacity. How much greater would you specify? I am suggesting at least 25% increase but that is based on the assumption that my cold inflation number was met 100% of the time but if I have to tolerate 20% underi-inflation then that translates to another increase in tire load capacity which can only be accomplished by an increase in size or decrease in operating speed.
What is your acceptable performance criteria? "Better" is not a meaningful target. You need specific targets then we can see what it would take to meet those targets.


In 2002 DOT increased the performance requirements for Passenger and LT type tires but under what some assume was pressure by RV Mfg ST type tires still only need pass the 1970 test requirements. Maybe you can figure out how to get DOT to improve the durability of ST type tires.


Right now the easiest thing you can do is to switch to LT type but be sure to meet their load and inflation requirements and also insure the LT tires are never overloaded or under-inflated.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

To add to Marshal's post:

From what I can tell, the "SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE" between Carlisle tires manufactured in china and Trailer King tires manufactured in china is the plant managment/supervision...

Carlisle built a tire plant in china (to take advantage of cheaper labor). Carlisle runs the plant, supervises the manufacturing process, contracts/manages the labor force, the tire production and the quality control of the end product...

Trailer King contracted tires from a china owned tire plant, that china runs, supervises the process, manages the labor force, the tire production and the quality control of the end product... TK contracts to have "shiploads of ST tires" delivered to a port on the west coast and TK sends those tires to their warehouses throughout the US. Carlisle, builds their product in china, ships it to the US and sells it under their own brand, "from start to finish"....

So, the difference is "TK buys chinese tires to sell to you"

"Carlisle builds tires in china to sell to you"....

BOTH TK's and Carlisle "meet minimum standards". One company accepts a 5 or 7 or 10% failure rate as long as profits stay in the acceptable range, the other isn't satisfied with a 3% failure rate and strives to lower that rate to improve performance.

See the difference ??? I sure do....

Yup. 100% correct. So all you have to do is to demand GY Endurance or Carlisle or whatever brand you believe delivers acceptable performance. If the RV you want doesn't have the "acceptable" tires you need to walk away. This isn't hard and you are in 100% control so what's the problem?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Yup. 100% correct. So all you have to do is to demand GY Endurance or Carlisle or whatever brand you believe delivers acceptable performance. If the RV you want doesn't have the "acceptable" tires you need to walk away. This isn't hard and you are in 100% control so what's the problem?

Exactly. That's why my Cougar, in 2014, was delivered to the dealership with TK tires and the dealer changed them out for Carlisle Radial Trail HD tires before I ever saw the trailer on the lot. What he did with the TK's or what he and Keystone did with the TK's is not my concern. When I towed the trailer off the dealer's lot for the first time, the tires on it "met with my approval". That had been clearly understood by the dealer when we ordered the trailer from him. When he got confirmation of delivery from Goshen to Onaway, he purchased the 5 tires and sent someone to Sam's to pick up the two GC2 batteries. They were installed before the PDI. I never saw the TK tires, but they were listed on the Keystone build sheet by lot number/size. The change to Carlisle tires was reflected by a "dealer entry on the build sheet"

So, for me, there was "no problem becasue I was 100% in control"...

[flybouy]

Here's my final comment on this thread, and yes I can hear the applause.

For a company to get my money for a product with the inherent importance that tires provide they need to earn my trust. That trust, to me personally, is greatly dependent upon reputation. Carlisle tires had an issue with their ruputation years ago. They seem to have corrected that and moved on. Goodyear had their ST reputation seriously bruised with their Marathon (built in China) tire line that failed miserably. They stopped production for several years until returning to the ST tire market with the American built Endurance line.

For me, the Trailer King and the dozen or so "other brands" that are are produced in those plants are not a purchase consideration for me. They cannot have a lesser reputation in my view. I personally have seen these tires ready to fall apart prematurely that I personally owned, used, and maintainded properly. I don't think that the majority of those tire failures were a result of abuse. The the idea that these tires failed strictly due to abuse and not due to quality or manufacturing issues because "they pass the safety test" from decades ago just isn't credible to me.

So everyone can buy what they want. I personally would not place my reputation on the line attempting to defend a tire brand with such a poor track record. JMHO

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Yup. 100% correct. So all you have to do is to demand GY Endurance or Carlisle or whatever brand you believe delivers acceptable performance. If the RV you want doesn't have the "acceptable" tires you need to walk away. This isn't hard and you are in 100% control so what's the problem?

No need to walk away, just know what junk is. Like John, they removed the Ranier OE tires on this trailer and installed Sailuns before I ever touched it - 100% in control and no problem.

As far as "But if you don't want to believe science that is up to you. All i do is offer facts." I have 2 PHDs in my family and I've also had PHDs work for me. As we all know "science" can concoct most anything to cover whatever the goal is. Many times proposed "science" runs into "real life" and the twain shall never meet. As you have said, tire tests are for the bare minimum to "get by" while hoping there isn't any anomaly that might stress that bare minimum...but there are....always - hence TK failures.

[CWtheMan]

It should be pointed out that when a dealer replaces OEM tires with another brand, they must be the same designated size as those on the vehicle certification label at the time of first sale. (Ref: 571.110 & 120).

Approval for a designation size (ST) to be replaced by a designation size (LT) can only be approved by the vehicle manufacturer. There is a precedence for that in 570.62.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by CWtheMan

It should be pointed out that when a dealer replaces OEM tires with another brand, they must be the same designated size as those on the vehicle certification label at the time of first sale. (Ref: 571.110 & 120).

Approval for a designation size (ST) to be replaced by a designation size (LT) can only be approved by the vehicle manufacturer. There is a precedence for that in 570.62.

Which is a good reason to upgrade after the fact not as part of the sale. Dealers hands are tied by regulations.

[flybouy]

Any tire shop will not, should not, install a lesser size or rated tire than the OEM. They can & will install a tire with more capacity or increased size providing the rim is rated to hold the air and the rim width & tire bead /rim profile match the tire.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Any tire shop will not, should not, install a lesser size or rated tire than the OEM. They can & will install a tire with more capacity or increased size providing the rim is rated to hold the air and the rim width & tire bead /rim profile match the tire.

I’ve never read the law so I’m not 100% sure on this, but I was told by a dealer once, years ago, that they could not upgrade the tires, that they could only put on OE equivalent. I know tire shops will upgrade, but will never go below OE equivalent. So not sure if that was the dealer policy or if the law is different/more specific for end product dealers than tire shops.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I’ve never read the law so I’m not 100% sure on this, but I was told by a dealer once, years ago, that they could not upgrade the tires, that they could only put on OE equivalent. I know tire shops will upgrade, but will never go below OE equivalent. So not sure if that was the dealer policy or if the law is different/more specific for end product dealers than tire shops.

I've not read the law nor claimed to. But I've had tire shops that have told me this for over 50 years while I was getting tires for cars, vans, trucks, boat trailer, utility trailers and rv. Take it for what it's worth.