Half ton towing

[GunDoc]

Wow!

First off I did not intend for this "discussion” to become so heated and I NEVER felt like ANYONE was attacking me!

I welcome everyone’s input and do respect differing opinions. The reason I posted was to get those opinions. I have years of mechanical experience ranging from hot rods to aircraft to BIG trucks (Oshkosh Kenworth and others). What I don’t have is much experience towing travel trailers. That’s why I am here.

I do appreciate everyone’s input and will continue to ask questions and hopefully at some point will be able to pass on some knowledge that I have, or may learn.

I have decided to pick up the TT and after checking it out, head straight to the scales so I know without a doubt what I have and what I need to do to stay safe.

[randygk]

I have a Hideout 23RBWE 5340 lbs shipping wt and approx. 660 tongue wt. Towed with a 2012 Ram 1500 Crew cab with shell. I weighed the truck full fuel no people at 5440 lbs. I then weighed the truck hooked to trailer (near empty)with wd hitch at 6100 lbs, with a GVW rating of 6800 that leaves 700 lbs for people and cargo.
My wife, myself, and large choc lab (over 100 lbs) leave 280 lbs for cargo.
The hemi pulled just fine, but I didn't want to be that close to the weight limit.
I now have a new Ram 2500 in the garage.
The scale is the only way to determine your capacities.

[bucketman]

I tow with a 2013 F150 Platinum,,,rated at 1093 payload. When I bought the truck I only looked at drivetrain and not payload, big mistake. Salesman knew that I was going to tow with this vehicle. 90% blame on me and 10% on him..I will know better on next vehicle. I tow a 5400 (empty weight) TT and 590 tongue weight. Just my wife and I. I know that I'm maxed out on payload probably a few hundred over. I'm not too concerned as I took it to the scales and my axle weights are well within the capacities and gross is ok also. The trailer tows excellent without any sway. In my former career we had what they called safe working loads with cables and slings. We also had breaking strength which was 5 time safe loads. We could work within the breaking strength if we were aware and careful. It is hard for me to believe the ratings that they put on these trucks is not for the most extreme conditions and if you you are aware of that and not put it in that condition that you would be okay. I would love to hear comments. How many of you are over the payload of your TV and are comfortable with it.

[austinp]

I tow with a 2012 screw Ecoboost Lariat and my payload max is a bit over 1400 lbs. When loaded with 80 lbs of batteries, 60 lbs of propane and a WD of 70 lbs I'm close to max with a dry hitch weight of 720 lbs. I load heavy stuff on the back of my camper and luckily it's only me, the DW + 2 Yorkis (6 lbs each). My truck tows great with 2 friction sway bars that are tightened pretty good. The issue I see by being overweight is the toll on the bearings and suspension, including spring bars and tires.

[SkyPiGG]

GunDoc, you're going to be fine. I have the same truck in a 2011, and tow about the same, and it's fine. Yeah, we're probably both over the specs, and we're not going to be nearly as comfortable as the folks who own the 2500's and 3500's, but it will be OK. I tow about 6 times a year, and I don't traverse any mountains to speak of. I have a nice WD hitch, and I take my time. The wind blows you a round a bit, but it's manageable.

I just got back from the Maryland shore and it towed beautifully. There was 25MPH gusts through Delaware, and 30 feet of trailer is a gigantic sail. It pulled me a round a bit, but you get used to it after awhile. I never went over 60 MPH, and I always leave enough braking distance so that if I get pushed by a big gust, I can power through it without fear of hitting the car in front of me.

It would be nice to have a big 3/4-ton, and maybe I'll own one in the future, but I love my half-ton right now. It rides way better than the big trucks, and the mileage is no-contest. I may go out of spec when I tow, but I monitor my tire-wear, and every time I go in for an oil-change, I have my mechanic check the hitch-welds.

So go out and get that trailer, and start enjoying it. Don't get so caught up in the numbers. You know where you stand!

By the way.. thanks for your service!

[GunDoc]

Thanks SkyPig,
It looks like my Cougar is about 500lbs (dry) lighter than what you are pulling and about 4 feet shorter. I will be doing some mountains, but know I’ll probably have to stay in 4th (or lower) and take it slow. I am going to use an Equal-i-zer 4 point WD hitch with sway control, so hopefully that will help some with managing the sail.

I guess it comes down to risk mitigation. I’ll pack light, plan the route and allow for extra time to get to where I am going. Our first trip will be about 90 minutes from here with a mix of divided hi-way and two lane (WA16 and US101) and is relatively flat. Once we figure out how the rig handles and what kind of power we have, we will slowly increase our trips in both duration and difficulty.

Thanks to all that responded…I’ll post updates once we hit the road!

[buzzcop63]

My Trailer is the same as Ken / Claudia with the difference being he is towing with a Ford F350 and I am towing with a 1/2 Ton 4.6V8 Tundra, two wheel drive. All the numbers work for this combination but the true test is the weight scale and driving. This is my 3rd season with this set up and it has proven to be very comfortable as well as economical. Truck and Trailer have been back and forth over the mountains to the coast from the Willamette valley.

A heavier truck with higher torque rating would make the tow even more comfortable but also increase the cost. When fully loaded with trailer attached I have 420Lb still available in truck bed, if I were to add two more large adults and their gear my truck would be overloaded, your truck GVWR is 7,000 which is only 300Lb over mine plus as JRTJH has stated with added hitch weight that might put you over the GVWR for your truck.

I have found when out camping that their are plenty of trailer combinations that the driver will say that they have had no problems and have traveled all over the country even though the numbers would say that their combination is over the rated loads for the tow vehicle. Check at the weight scale and on the road to see what you conclude but keep in mind JRTJH information, how close do you want to be to the edge of safe towing?


5,560 Weight of Tundra, full tank of gas and myself and wife.
3,220 Front Axel
2,340 Rear Axel

6,280 Weight of Tundra, trailer attached, full fuel and standard load
3,100 Front Axel
3,180 Rear Axel

5,500 Weight of trailer while attached, both Axels on scale, tanks empty except 5 gal fresh water, dbl battery, full LP tanks, ready to travel.

11,780 Weight of Truck and Trailer, Max combined weight 14,000.

720 Weight increase of Tundra with WTH, 11.6%

Tundra Tow Rating is 8,200Lb
Trailer Max Weight 7,200Lb
Max Truck Weight 6,700Lb
Trailer Shipping Weight 5,576Lb
Carrying Capacity 1,624Lb
Hitch 530Lb

[GunDoc]

Buzzcop63,

I hear you…
I made a pretty big mistake when first figuring my numbers…I thought my truck’s GVWR was 7000, when it is actually 7200 (http://www.gmc.com/tools/2014-btl-ve...Selected=false) Curb weight is 5420.

When I run the numbers with what I “expect” to see with the TT on the truck, I come up very close to what you have as far as “cushion” goes. I have 1780 available payload on the truck, the TT has an advertised dry tongue weight of 610 (slides are pretty far back), TT shipping weight (as stated on the door) is 6220. I plan on using the TT for weekend getaways, so I will be loading light. I don’t expect to put more than a couple of hundred pounds per person in the TT (3PAX=600lbs), plus the weight of propane, hitch and batteries (about 220 total). Add those weights to the shipping weight and you get 7040lbs – I’ll call it 7100lbs.

Back to the TV GVWR: 7200-5420=1780lbs – two adults (in addition to driver) @ 145 each is 290 – leaves 1490 for hitch. 7100 x 12% = 852, 1490 – 852 = 638. I weigh 200, so I need to subtract another 50lbs from the 638 since the base weight only allows for 150lbs for the driver. That leaves me with 588 cushion compared to your 420. That is a difference of 168 pounds between the two trucks.

If these numbers are close the truck should weigh in at about 6600 with PAX and the TT at 7100. Together right around 13700. My gross combined is 15000, leaving 1300lbs cushion.

Of course all these numbers are “best guess,” but are based on mostly factual information. The only real SWAG is the tongue weight.

My numbers are:
Sierra Tow Rating: 9600
Sierra Max Combined: 15000
Max Truck Weight: 7200
Trailer Shipping Weight: 6220
Carrying Capacity: 1705
Max Trailer Weight: 8000
Hitch: 610 (dry)

I have to believe the engineers (AND lawyers) at GM error on the side of caution when publishing gross cargo, vehicle, towing and other weights.

[buzzcop63]

GunDoc:
The key to your numbers since I think you are going to be within bounds on axel weights as well as all others numbers which leaves only the truck GVWR that is of concern.

Truck GVWR of 7,200-5,420 Curb Weight = 1,780 Lb less WDH of 852 Lb which is 12% of 7,100 estimated trailer weight, now you have 928 Lb to play with, deduct your weight at 200 Lb less 150 allowance or 50 Lb plus two other people at 290 Lb, that leaves 588 Lb. From the 588 Lb you still must subtract gas, which at 26 gal at 6.073 Lb per gal would be another 158 Lb. Your margin is now 588 Lb less 158 Lb or 430 Lb still free, which could be used for leveling blocks, tools, and other items.

I think you are going to be close on the trucks GVWR but better to have the truck heavy then the trailer due to the tires that our current trailers ride on. The 1/2 ton truck is so comfortable to drive as a day to day vehicle and the cost of the 3/4 and 1 ton vehicles is considerable more expensive. So you must watch what you load and for the sake of the tires on the trailer keep the speed to 55-60MPH and enjoy your camping experience.

Also, very hearty thanks for your service and thanks to all those who have taken the time to try and give you our best advice.

"Curb Weight: The weight of the vehicle when it is completely empty of passengers, fuel and cargo."

[GunDoc]

Thanks Buzzcop3,

I’ll watch how I load both the TV and TT, keep the speed down around 55-60 max and let this new, very smart truck do its thing to help with grade braking, stabilization and Tow/Haul shift points.

Again, I plan on starting out by going on short trips, both in distance and duration to see how this combo works. I’ll pay attention to what the rig is telling me and make adjustments as needed. As I said before, it’s all about planning and risk management. I guess all those years in the Army and now as an Army government employee has done its job of beating planning and safety into my head!!

[logspec1]

Highly recommend you take your truck, just as you drive it everyday, and weigh it at a certified scale. Get out and just weigh the truck with a full tank of gas. I think you will find you are a lot closer to the TV GVW than you think. Now that you have that number add the people, tongue weight and stuff that you would normally take. I agree, the HP and towing capacity are there, the question is the TV GVW.

Example, my GVW for my F150 is 7100, when I weighed it just as I drive it everyday with a full tank of gas it came in at 5880. Not a lot of room to play with after you add 3 people and 750 tongue weight.

[Ken / Claudia]

I need to mention my error in stating trailer wt. After reading Buzzs wt.s I realized in post #6 my trailer weight is 6900, it is not, it was checked at 5700 lbs with a tongue wt of 900lbs = 6600 lbs. I passed math class but, that was along time ago.

[GunDoc]

Weighed the truck today with a tank of gas and me in it. It came in at 5760 leaving 1440 for tongue weight (850) and my other 2 PAXs (290). I should have around 300lbs before hitting GVW.

[JRTJH]

One significant consideration that many people fail to remember is that the "recommended tongue weight" is between 10 and 15 percent of the trailer weight. That doesn't mean that the "new owner' gets to "choose" what that percentage will be, it means that "usually" the trailer will tow best somewhere between those percentages. Some rigs will tow better at 10% and some will simply sway and be "white knuckle producers" up to the 15% figure and never tow well without significant investment in hitch/sway control.

Why the differences? vehicle weight, wheelbase, distance from rear axle to hitch ball, distance from hitch ball to trailer axles, trailer weight, trailer height, hitch height, the list goes on and on......

Every tow vehicle/trailer combination is unique in how it tows and can't really be compared to "a friend had" for good examples or for valid expectations on how your specific truck/trailer combination will handle on the road.

The reason for figuring the maximum weight you'll be towing at the trailer GVW and using 15% of that figure for your tongue weight is because you simply won't know how your combination will tow until you get it loaded and on the road. If you "pick 12%" as your "known value and calculate "right to the pound" on what your tongue weight will be, then find, after you've purchased your rig that you really need 14 or 15 percent or even more weight on the tongue for "your rig" to be steady, then you're going to be "overloaded" not by design, but you trying to "cut it too close" before you even make a down payment. Plan for the "worst case" and you'll be safe in almost every trailer purchase, if you "fudge to make the numbers work" by using "half the allowance" and planning to "only load a little" and then realize that you need more to prevent sway or "have to tow with full water tank to prevent sway" then you're "STUCK" If you calculate your trailer GVW and use 15% of that as the tongue weight, add your hitch, passengers, etc and are below the GVW and GCWR, then you know you'll be "golden" with that trailer even if you have "unique circumstances" with your rig's handling characteristics. Don't cut yourself short by using "best guess" values, use the values known to fit "almost every rig" and you'll be safe.

Don't get "STUCK"...plan for the "worst case" and you'll be fine, otherwise, you're just "hoping it works" with your "best guess numbers." That has proven to be a very expensive "hope" for a number of novice RV'ers, who find after they buy their "dream trailer" that their truck simply isn't up to the task. It's even been a learning experience for some seasoned veteran RV'ers who want to pull more with less.....

[RaptyJon]

It comes down to comfort level and stability for me. I literally had zero towing experience when I bought my trailer and I felt it was too big of a trailer for the truck I had (F150 Ecoboost). For me, it's getting comfortable with the "normal" feelings of towing a trailer - when you have zero experience you don't know what's normal and when something's wrong so there was a lot of nerves and white knuckling going on for a while. Most trucks have built in sway control where if sway becomes and issue it'll engine brake for you to slow you back down...as a result, I learned, just keep it slow. You're towing a trailer so it's better to be safe than sorry...not just for you and your passengers, but everyone else on the road. When I took my trailer on our first trip, it was on the factory tires...big mistake, they were standard tires and super squirrly - bought E rated tires after that trip. After that I took it across I-80 through wonderful windy Wyoming and the sway/wind was pretty scary at times. Learned how it feels when a bus/semi passed and how it tries to suck you in. There's lots of road to the right of the line - use it. When you see a truck looking to pass, just slightly move over and give yourself more room and you won't feel those big semi's blow by you - another factor is your speed, the faster you're going, the more you're going to feel sucked into those semis passing you because they're going fast too. 60 is about my comfort zone so far but I still have a lot of miles of experience to get under my belt till I'm totally comfortable towing, and that's after upgrading to a bigger truck (F250). Overall I just felt the trailer was too big for the truck I had and it didn't provide the stability I wanted to feel it was safe to tow the trailer (12 foot tall toy hauler - yes, sometimes it does feel like a sail).

Good luck.

[b.d.m]

Towing in the military, or for government is really simple.

IF the trailer you are towing has the ability to carry 10,000lbs you must tow it with a truck capable of towing 15% more. dont care of the trailer is empty...

[sourdough]

Some thoughts for the OP.

I bought a 2014 Cougar High Country 319RLS. Dry weight 8025lbs. Tongue - 850 lbs. You need to check the scales and your ownership materials. Mine said my tongue weight was 900 lbs including full propane tanks - it came in lighter. Total trailer weight, indicated on the sticker, included 1/2 tank of fresh water as noted in the owner's manual.

The trailer literally maxed out my payload and I was close on GVW and GCVW. I towed the RV with a 2012 Ram 1500 with 5.7 hemi, 3.55 and AirLift 1000 airbags. Went from TX to FL (3000 miles round trip) and didn't have an issue...not one. Sway can be an issue but with a good WD/equalizing hitch (Equalizer) it is minimal. Yes, you do feel some push from a semi - at times, but not usually. Winds of 30-40 mph in flat country DO give you some push as well, but not white knuckle. The quick gusts that hit from one side then whip back WILL give you white knuckles. Every day, when I started out, it took me about 45 minutes to get used to the way the trailer pulled. After that it was fine; and I drove 65 mph all the time on the freeways.

After reading the posts I received when I contemplated this trip I talked to many folks. The posts telling you that there is no sway etc. with a trailer whatsoever are pulling a 25' 5th wheel with an F450 dually. When I said I made the trip fine with the TT and TV it was inferred that I was inexperienced and had nothing to reference to. Every person has his idea of what is perfect and/or acceptable. Your setup is going to be fine if YOU are fine with it and comfortable. Your Rv ratings will be fine. The limiting factor is the tires so check them (truck/trailer). When I visited with a Keystone engineer about mine he told me that the numbers put on the sticker for loads is determined by what tire they pick; then that number is put on the RV sticker. He said the axles will usually handle much more. If you have the 1/2 ton you may have P rated tires. That can cause sway.

Bottom line is this. I pulled my trailer at almost max loading across half the country. I didn't have issues other than winds which caused some sway, which was minimal. Trailer brakes, controller worked fine. After reading some of the posts here, talking to my son who deals in cars/trucks and putting in some worrying time, I bought a 2014 Ram 2500. Haven't pulled the trailer yet because it's in the shop. I could not get the thought out of my head of having an accident due to some oversight on my part and hurting someone, or especially my beautiful wife of 47 years. I'm sure I would have been fine for the next 10 years but I just couldn't get it out of my head....I'm a worrier and I try to dot all the I's and cross all the T's. I just couldn't reconcile that I had done that with my prior setup.

[GunDoc]

I took the TT out for the first time this weekend. I stayed fairly close to home (about 65 miles. one-way), but encountered most driving conditions. These included 4 lane divided highway, 2 lane highway (US101), flats, long bridges and some pretty good grades, both up and down. The TV/TT combo performed great. No sway, even with semis passing (traffic was heavy in some areas) or moderate cross winds. I had plenty of power to pull the long grades and averaged right at 10MPG for the trip. At no time did it feel like I wasn’t in complete control of both truck and trailer.

We loaded pretty light: 2/3 tank of fresh water (about 40 gals), a couple of pots and pans, dishes, clothing for three days, food for 2 days, snacks, tools, jack and assorted leveling aids (6 ea2x6 pieces, Lynx leveler kit and chocks). All total we had about 1000lbs over TT dry weight plus two PAX. The Equal-I-Zer 4 worked great and kept the truck at almost the same attitude as it is empty, albeit a little lower than normal, both front and back.

I feel comfortable pulling this trailer with my truck. I know I probably never load the trailer to its max weight and will have to watch what I put in the truck to stay within GVW for the TV. I also know it would be easier to just “load it up” if I had a ¾ ton or larger, but after driving this combo and feeling how it reacted to the changing conditions on the roadway, know that is safe to do with my current setup as long as I watch how and what I load.

[logspec1]

Glad to hear everything went well for you. Nothing like having that "warm fuzzy" about your combo., makes the trips a lot more enjoyable.

[audio1der]

Just returned from a great, if quick trip.
I changed our shank to get the trailer level 9it was an inch and a half nose up), Replaced our Airlift 1000's due to a leak. Filled the fresh tank before leaving.
I don't know if it's one thing or a combination but even with some wind, I didn't have a white knuckle moment. Being passed by semi's, wind, no problem
On another note, my DIY jack stabilizers worked amazingly; will start a thread in the DIY section with pics.