Doing Serious Brake upgrade 2013 Alpine 3555RL Drum/Disc

[flrtrader]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I tow exclusively in Mtn terra8n and have for the last 40 years... I see no reason to spend 3K for enhanced trailer brakes unless you got cash to burn.. I tow with a diesel but no exhaust brake.. 2007 Duramax...

Quite frankly the parts for an aftermarket upgrade for the trailer brakes might be a real issue to find if you had a part failure out on the road..

Conversely the conventional electromagnet brakes do a fine job and a pretty much trouble free with proper annual routine inspection and maintenance..

Also the parts for trailer electromagnet brake system are pretty much available anywhere...

My money will stay in my pocket .... factory brakes on my Alpine are 7 years old now and they are not worn out yet..

And I’ve been down some awesome 8% and 10 % grades over in Montana and a few here in Idaho...

Thanks very much Chuck... And I agree with you.

God Bless Safe Travels

[Roscommon48]

yep, disc brakes are nice but whether you use gas or diesel it doesn't change anything.

performancetrailerbraking.com



spend the $3K on brakes but I think you may find that you don't go up/down lots of mountains. and, I'd probably say you should save your money and look down the road of buying a diesel truck.

[McRod]

Yeah, if you haven't had discs brakes and manage without them its hard to recommend something you haven't used.

As a few others have said, it's night and day difference between discs and magnetic drums. Once you experience the difference you will see why those who have them highly recommend them.

I tow a little single axle trailer for my SxS and it has NO brakes, weighs about 3500 lbs when loaded. My TV is a 2014 Ram 3500 DRW diesel.

But when I tow my 5vr which weighs about 18,000lbs, the disc brakes make a huge difference in my driving confidence.

If your planning on full timing I would suggest you get them. If you are an average shade tree mechanic you can do the install. Use etrailer.com for your parts and they can walk you through any problems on installation. They have great customer service.

[Peacemkr53]

Keith - I pulled a Cougar 315RLS from north of Indy to Newport TN down I-75 through the mountains. Had no issue with stock brakes. But I have to remember I am not driving my Crossfire. Take it easy and be conservative. I used to pull a 23' Nomad weighing around 10K with a gas station wagon. Same deal, stock brakes in the KY/TN mountains and no issues.

Happy Trails
Bill

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Peacemkr53

Keith - I pulled a Cougar 315RLS from north of Indy to Newport TN down I-75 through the mountains. Had no issue with stock brakes. But I have to remember I am not driving my Crossfire. Take it easy and be conservative. I used to pull a 23' Nomad weighing around 10K with a gas station wagon. Same deal, stock brakes in the KY/TN mountains and no issues.

Happy Trails
Bill

Have had several trailers & RVs all with the drum brakes & as you stated had no problems with them, but once I had the disc installed on my last 5th I then realized just how poorly drum brakes stopped/slowed those trailers, it's like comparing a Yugo to a Cadillac. The trailer brake controller setting went from 8 - 8.5 down to 4 & with the slightest touch of the brake pedal you feel both truck & RV stopping/slowing as a single unit, not the feeling of the RV dragging you back or wondering if the truck brakes would stop you in time.
As a weekend warrior probably wouldn't spend the $$ for the upgrade, but if traveling regularly or full-timing would definitely recommend them.

[77cruiser]

I thought it was a worth while upgrade.

[lunge motorsport]

Greetings…


So… I always read with interest the threads about disc to drum conversions. The opinions vary like they do on everything.



Prior to my conversion I did months of research. I looked at every piece of information I could find, from the forums to the blogs to the pro websites.


I am a building trades journeyman in the plumbing industry for the last 40 years and during those years I have spent time building race cars to compete as a successful amateur road racer. I mention this because I have spent my adult life turning wrenches and designing high performance braking systems for many different applications. This may or may not have any value to anyone but me but it does lend to a certain perspective other than the RV realm.


I have been towing trailers since the mid 80’s, race car and camping. My old Aljo was a 26’ travel trailer with a #7400 GVWR and my race car trailer is rated at #7500, my current rig is a Cougar rated at #10,200. All of these rigs came with electric drum brakes and all are towed with a ¾ ton truck and all within the rated limits. Current TV is a 2013 GMC 2500 HD with real brakes unlike my old ¾ ton Suburban with front disc brakes that were marginally sized at best.



I have never hit anything while towing but I never put myself in a compromising situation, also I have been lucky that nothing has ever come up that required superior braking.


I purchased the Cougar new in 2015, it had #4400 axles and 12’’ electrically operated drums. In my opinion this is woefully undersized although the standard of the industry. After a trip through the Siskiyou Mtns I had had enough of this marginal electric braking system and decided on making the change. You can see the project in my posted albums and I also have a blog called “checkmybuild.com” that has very detailed info on the conversion so I won’t go into it here.


My results have been fantastic, there is no comparison between my hydraulic disc brakes and electric drum brakes. For those that say that drum brakes are adequate if maintained properly…adequate is just not good enough for me and I wish only the best for you.



Done well the conversion is spendy. I purchased components that I believe would be the best option for me. Dexter #7000 Torflex axles with 13’’ ventilated rotors and 8) 9/16’’ studs, the rotors are Dexter 4 piston using a Dexter elec/hyd actuator. Yes, the parts are more expensive than kits offering passenger car single piston sliding calipers that are rated for the front wheel application on a #3000 automobile, but this system is rated for the load and not for replacement costs of pads.


There are performance considerations between the two systems though. Electricity travels through wire at about 90% of the speed of light. This means that the brake magnets are energized nearly instantaneously and then the shoes begin to spread into the drums creating drag or braking force. It also means that the hydraulic pump which carries no residual pressure begins to pressurize the hydraulic lines and that pressure then begins to move the pistons in the caliper towards contact with the rotors creating drag or again, brake force. There is a delay with any hydraulic discs while the pump ramps up pressure. This is why there is slight pedal travel in your properly maintained automobile brakes, it is moving pistons in the hydraulic system. Additionally, the more rubber brake hose that is incorporated in a hydraulic system the more performance lag there is due to hose growth under pressure. I have seen systems that use over 20’ of hose…ugh.


Finally, drum brakes do not shed temperature very well and heat build up can led to brake pad failure and loss of brake effectiveness. Disc brakes shed temperature much better than drums and that is the greatest advantage. Drum brakes (given equal brake swept area and a properly designed and maintained system) have greater initial stopping power due to the leverage effect of the shoe wedging itself into the drum. The disc is just squeezed by the pads offering no leverage effect at all. This is why drum hydraulic actuators are rated at about 1000 psi and disc actuators are rated around 1600 psi. Drums just don’t require as much pressure for initial lock up. I have seen available hydraulic drum systems but I just can’t imagine going to all the work to install a hydraulic system just to provide drum brakes with hydraulic actuating.


The bottom line is the brake force performance gains and the relative lack of maintenance on a disc system far outweigh the lag time it takes for the initial grab to begin. While electric drum brakes will actuate slightly quicker, some systems will not provide enough brake force to lock the wheels on a heavy trailer. This is usually due to undersized wire and poor connections (wire nuts)! Disc brakes with light gauge wire will under perform as well.


A pretty wordy opinion but it is my experience, you get to do what you want and I’m just offering this for our consideration.

[tonysr]

You don't put an engine brake or Jake brake on gas engine. The only reason you put one on diesel engine because it doesnt use a throttle body with a throttle plate to shut off air flow to the engine. Which when doing so acts the same as a Jake brake which shuts off the exhaust of the engine causing back pressure thus causing braking by the engine. You probably noticed when you let off the throttle you start slowing down. I've traveled all the areas you mentioned with my trailer and towing with a Ram 1500 and never an issue. Just shift to lower gear.

[bsmith0404]

I don’t have disc brakes on my Alpine, have talked to people who have done the conversion, they all say it was a great upgrade and I have no reason to doubt them. I have a Duramax with exhaust brake. I also believe in using the manual braking on my trailer brake control while going down mountains. I have done this for years with both my diesel and gas TVs. A little squeeze on the controller from time to time just keeps the speeds in check without heating up or warping discs on my truck. Have never had an issue with this method.

If I were in your situation, before i spent $3k on disc brakes for the trailer, I’d put that $3k into the loss of trading the truck in for a diesel. Especially since you’re going full time and will be doing more towing. I think that would be a much better return on investment.

One thing i have always wondered is if the people who have disc brakes on their RV have problems warping discs. It seems like it’s so easy to do on cars and trucks these days.

[flrtrader]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I don’t have disc brakes on my Alpine, have talked to people who have done the conversion, they all say it was a great upgrade and I have no reason to doubt them. I have a Duramax with exhaust brake. I also believe in using the manual braking on my trailer brake control while going down mountains. I have done this for years with both my diesel and gas TVs. A little squeeze on the controller from time to time just keeps the speeds in check without heating up or warping discs on my truck. Have never had an issue with this method.

If I were in your situation, before i spent $3k on disc brakes for the trailer, I’d put that $3k into the loss of trading the truck in for a diesel. Especially since you’re going full time and will be doing more towing. I think that would be a much better return on investment.

One thing i have always wondered is if the people who have disc brakes on their RV have problems warping discs. It seems like it’s so easy to do on cars and trucks these days.

I really thank everyone for sharing thoughts/experiences. I think the end result will be going through my current braking system and dotting all the i's.

I will say, since you brought it up as just putting the 3k towards the new diesel truck. I am transitioning from working full time to retirement which is a hit and a learning experience. I have a 2015 Silverado 3500 DWD 6.0 which pulls my 15k pound 5'er with no problem at all. I bought it used about a year ago... An paid a little to much. Since the purchase A uninsured drive hit the side, trashed the bed which my insurance replaced. But what some may or may not know is this wreck, no fault of my own with a piece of crap drive with no insurance continues to screw you far beyond the initial greasing! No when I went to see about trading the truck in for a Diesel I was informed the standard 30-35k I would have gotten for my low mileage near mint 3500 was now worth 25k MAX because of said accident and the Carfax report!!! Now, knowing I owe 40k... And I will take a 15k loss just to get out of my Gasser. It IS NOT an option. I will say this uninsured driver should literally have his nutz cut off and shoved in his mouth. Then,... at the time of the accident he lied to the police and provided a fraudulent insurance card, and After I learn of this from my insurance company (NO One) would go after him, not my Insurance Metlife or the Police!! Ok I am done venting thank you all so very much an God bless you and Merry Christmas.

Keith

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

...

One thing i have always wondered is if the people who have disc brakes on their RV have problems warping discs. It seems like it’s so easy to do on cars and trucks these days.

This is strictly a SWAG here but I would imagine the trailer brakes are working more like the rear axle brakes on a truck. The wheels don't turn, only rotate so no side forces and the loading is fairly constant. Most vehicles "dive" under braking, especially hard braking, loading the front brakes far greater than the rear brakes. The more "unbalanced" (front heavy) the vehicle the more pronounced the diving.

Every truck, van and car I've ever owned the rear pads or shoes outlasted the fronts. I've only replaced the rear rotors as an upgrade (I use Power Stop drilled & slotted rotors) and not due to warping. Some vehicles like mini vans have been noted for having undersized brakes on the front.

I'm also guessing that most people drive differently while towing, at least I hope they do. I know when towing I tend to lay back in heavy "accordion" action traffic so I don't brake as often, don't brake hard into turns, or allow the speed to build up going down steep grades.

I guess in a nutshell if you drive your rig like a NASCAR driver then I guess you may have warped rotors to deal with. Me personally, Well I gave up being the "poster boy for traffic court" many, many decades ago.

[jbsmith]

I completed the installation of the disk brake upgrade on our 2012 Keystone Cougar 331MKS earlier this summer. The electric drums were perfectly adequate for our truck/trailer combination, but the disks offer significantly better braking and easier inspection/maintenance. There are probably better places to spend your money if you're on a limited budget, but this will be one of the first upgrades to any new trailer purchase in our future.

Total cost of my self install was about $1500, which includes parts purchased through Amazon. The cost of the brake kit has increased, so plan on $2000.

• Kodiak 12" Hub/Rotor 6 on 5-1/2 Dacromet-coated Disk Brake Kit ($575.95 - on sale, now $997.90)
• Dexter K71-651-00 Electric/Hydraulic Brake Actuator 1600 PSI ($614.95)
• Various hose/line/connections/clamps ($250)
• Various electric wiring and connections ($25.00)

I also spent an additional $250.00 on Timken bearing/race sets for the Type 42 spindle on our 5200-lb axles. I didn't want to use the Chinese bearings that came with the brake kit. Note the disk/hub comes with the races pre-installed, so swapping them out can be a bit labor intensive.

• Inner 25580/25520 - Timken Set 52
• Outer 15123/15245 - Timken Set 43
• Grease Seal Dexter 10-36

The installation was physically no more complicated than doing a brake/bearing service. I spent several months planning out the install and thinking through brake line and hose routing, electric connections, etc. If you decide to pursue the upgrade, I'm happy to share my installation experience, parts list, photos, and lessons learned.

[flrtrader]

Originally Posted by jbsmith

I completed the installation of the disk brake upgrade on our 2012 Keystone Cougar 331MKS earlier this summer. The electric drums were perfectly adequate for our truck/trailer combination, but the disks offer significantly better braking and easier inspection/maintenance. There are probably better places to spend your money if you're on a limited budget, but this will be one of the first upgrades to any new trailer purchase in our future.

Total cost of my self install was about $1500, which includes parts purchased through Amazon. The cost of the brake kit has increased, so plan on $2000.

• Kodiak 12" Hub/Rotor 6 on 5-1/2 Dacromet-coated Disk Brake Kit ($575.95 - on sale, now $997.90)
• Dexter K71-651-00 Electric/Hydraulic Brake Actuator 1600 PSI ($614.95)
• Various hose/line/connections/clamps ($250)
• Various electric wiring and connections ($25.00)

I also spent an additional $250.00 on Timken bearing/race sets for the Type 42 spindle on our 5200-lb axles. I didn't want to use the Chinese bearings that came with the brake kit. Note the disk/hub comes with the races pre-installed, so swapping them out can be a bit labor intensive.

• Inner 25580/25520 - Timken Set 52
• Outer 15123/15245 - Timken Set 43
• Grease Seal Dexter 10-36

The installation was physically no more complicated than doing a brake/bearing service. I spent several months planning out the install and thinking through brake line and hose routing, electric connections, etc. If you decide to pursue the upgrade, I'm happy to share my installation experience, parts list, photos, and lessons learned.

Thanks JB,

Wow, you do real quality work my friend. Looks very impressive and top quality. To be honest it is not in my budget at the moment as I am in transition from working full time (Construction Engineer) to full retirement. But if I take this course I would love to go your route, though not sure my skill set equals yours. I do notice we are in the same town! (Home Base) Dayton, Ohio. Small world. It might be nice to become friends since this is the case. I am in Huber Heights and keep my Rig stored at Best Storage on Brandt pike north of Walmart. You?

[jbsmith]

Small world indeed...I'll send you a PM.