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Old 10-10-2021, 10:07 AM   #21
Tireman9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamabox View Post
Got ready to pull out, checked tires as always. Front right down to 15 psi. What?? Inflated to 80 with emergency air pump, rolled slowly forward with DW checking for a nail or screw…………nothing. Didn’t dare make the trip home, 200 miles on it, so put on the spare (the original 2017 Westlake). Brand new Goodyear endurance’s this spring. Been home now for several days, sprayed the crap out of the tire with dawn/water solution looking for leak. Nothing. After several days now, tire pressure only fluctuates a pound or 2 when it gets cold in my barn at night, then pressure comes back up to 80 when it gets warm. I must assume at this point the tire/valve stem/bead are all OK. I can only think of 2 possible causes. One, I use the scissor chocks between the wheels. Is it remotely possible that if I cranked them too tight it might affect the bead on the rim enough to go from 80 to 15 psi in 4 days at the campground? And number two, which I hate to even think about, someone at the campground who may have wished me ill fortune, decided to play a dirty trick. I’m at a loss.

You didn't say if you use a metal valve cap or not. I think the most likely is a valve core leak. I have covered this (with pictures on my blog) on a tire I had on a utility trailer. I can PM the liink if you ask. Forum rules prevent me from posting.
Valve cores can leak due to a single grain of dirt. Metal valve caps with internal "O" rings can seal 80 psi while the basic plastic cape may not, especially after they have been on and off a number of times.
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Old 10-10-2021, 10:49 AM   #22
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I had the exact same problem. Topped off my tires weekend before we left for vacation and luckly heard a slight hiss. Valve stem was leaking and replaced good as new. Only I should have checked all off them. Got to the campground the following weekend and after the second morning noticed tire on the opposite side was completely flat. Swapped out all the valve stems and everything held as it should.
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Old 10-10-2021, 12:00 PM   #23
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Check leakage through the schrader valve. Sometimes the valve core was not properly installed.



Sometimes the core is loose or over tight. The spec is 3 to 5 Inch- Ounces of torque. Too loose will leak. Too tight and you split the gasket. I covered this in my RV tire blog with pictures.
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Old 10-10-2021, 01:28 PM   #24
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I had the exact same problem. Topped off my tires weekend before we left for vacation and luckly heard a slight hiss. Valve stem was leaking and replaced good as new. Only I should have checked all off them. Got to the campground the following weekend and after the second morning noticed tire on the opposite side was completely flat. Swapped out all the valve stems and everything held as it should.

I will take this opportunity to repeat something I have said in another thread....somewhere. I don't know how many folks use, or have used, balancing beads in their trailer tires but if you do, don't. I did one time (at the suggestion of the service manager) and I had a devil of a time with the valve cores ALWAYS leaking - just kept replacing them. Took a while for me to figure it out but the beads deteriorate and become like beach sand, they then stick in the valve any time you lose air or if you depress and release it.
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Old 10-10-2021, 03:31 PM   #25
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Another thing that I've seen is the schrader valve will leak only when deflected. So if you put your finger on the end of the valve cap and move it around, it will start leaking at the base near where the valve goes through the wheel. Usually you will see cracks in the rubber base when you deflect it. Just sitting in the garage it might not leak. But due to the deflection caused by centrifugal force, it will start leaking when the wheel is spinning going down the road.
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Old 10-10-2021, 06:38 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Camper Wayne View Post
Another thing that I've seen is the schrader valve will leak only when deflected. So if you put your finger on the end of the valve cap and move it around, it will start leaking at the base near where the valve goes through the wheel. Usually you will see cracks in the rubber base when you deflect it. Just sitting in the garage it might not leak. But due to the deflection caused by centrifugal force, it will start leaking when the wheel is spinning going down the road.

That is one main reason I do not like or recommend "snap-in" valves.


Brass valve stems don't crack and they do not bend or vibrate when TPM sensor is screwed on the end of the stem.


Bolt in stems are Brass. May be Nickle or Chrome plated but the stem is brass unless you mistakenly bought high dollar aluminum stems which can certainly have corrosion problems as seen in many OE Factory stems
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
That is one main reason I do not like or recommend "snap-in" valves.


Brass valve stems don't crack and they do not bend or vibrate when TPM sensor is screwed on the end of the stem.


Bolt in stems are Brass. May be Nickle or Chrome plated but the stem is brass unless you mistakenly bought high dollar aluminum stems which can certainly have corrosion problems as seen in many OE Factory stems
I'm suprised you didn’t "cover that on your tire blog with pictures".
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Old 10-11-2021, 09:39 AM   #28
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I'm suprised you didn’t "cover that on your tire blog with pictures".
Tacky, tacky!
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Old 10-11-2021, 11:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
I'm suprised you didn’t "cover that on your tire blog with pictures".


Sorry but since I cover 4 to 6 RV forums each day I do not have the time to write the same info on the same topics every couple of weeks. The posts that I am most amused by are the ones that start of with "I have searched everywhere and can't find the answer".


flybouy, I am wondering what your suggestion is on what I should do when I see posts and questions on a topic I have previously written about. Would you approve the following?



Thursday, December 3, 2020

Tire Valve core torque tool

I have mentioned valve cores in a number of posts. I even offered some advice on how and why you should avoid over-tightening the core Here.
Last week, I learned about a low cost tool that I feel I can endorse as I purchased and tested this tool and was pleased with the results.
This is essentially a "clicker" type torque tool. You tighten the valve core in a smooth twist and it will click and release when the core is tight.
Using my calibrated In-Oz Torque wrench I confirmed the Slime unit worked at 3.5 In-Oz
which is in the range of 2 - 5 In Oz as specified by the Tire & Rim Association, the organization that publishes dimensional specifications for tires, Wheels and valves as used world-wide.

It's the Slime Part # 20178. I got mine at a local auto parts store but I see it listed as available at a number of stores and on-line.

or this



Friday, March 22, 2019

Valve stems, cores, and caps "Oh My", and how tight is tight enough?

Yes, some rubber valve stems have a metal center and some valves are all metal except for a rubber gasket. The metal part of valves is almost always brass. Sometimes Nickle plated to look like chrome or to match aluminum wheels.


The two valves on the left are "Snap-In" rubber valves. The two on the right are "Bolt-in" metal stems. By "Snap-In" we mean the valve is installed into the hole in the wheel by pulling on the threaded part of the brass until the small rubber ridge "snaps" through the hole.


The best way to know for sure is to look for a nut that "bolts" the stem to the wheel. I would suggest a TR416 or similar as seen HERE from Auto Zone. O'Riley's parts stores have a similar short stem. You should be able to find similar in almost any auto parts store. These metal stems come in many lengths from less than an inch to 2" or longer (different lengths have different TR part numbers). The hole in your passenger, trailer or light truck wheel is most likely 7/16" Old VW wheels were 5/8" All 19.5 and 22.5 wheels should have come with a metal bolt in valves but those use the 5/8" rubber grommet/O-ring. Many metal stems sold at retail, come with two different rubber gaskets, one for each size hole. The gasket is just a snug fit and should just push into the wheel hole.


Note the nut has a torque spec of 25 - 45 INCH Pounds so do not over tighten the nut. I have found that a regular 9/16" wrench is just fine and you do not need a big ratchet wrench to tighten the nut.


Keep the stem short to lower the chance of the TPMS being knocked off if you get near a curb. There are some unique wheels that may require a bit longer stem to allow you to attach your TPM sensor. I suggest you have the sensors available when you install the bolt in stems to confirm sufficient clearance.

The main reason for metal stems when running TPMS is to prevent vibration of the stem which can fatigue the rubber stem.



While you are at the auto parts store be sure you have METAL valve caps. Plastic caps are IMO only good for keeping dirt and small birds out of the valve core area. Metal caps should have rubber "O" rings in them and can retain air if you are not running TPMS. Look in the thread end and you should see the gasket.

Each Fall, when I remove my TPMS for the Winter, I place metal caps on my stems. I will admit that one year I didn't do that and the valve core had a very slow leak but I ended up with a tire being damaged because it lost air over the 7 months between when I parked and when I was getting ready to go traveling.

I have a couple of posts that focuses on the valve cores. One on why they leak.

One detail is how to know how tight is enough for your valve cores. Over-tight can cause the small gasket to deform and even split and under-tight will result in a slow leak. After 40 years of installing valve cores I consider my fingers to be close to "calibration" but it would be better if you followed a specific procedure.

I did a test that may help. The spec for valve core torque is 1.5 to 5.0-inch pounds MAX but I don't expect you to run out and buy a special inch-pound torque wrench as seen here.




To help you I devised this test. Using the test fixture I made when running my TPMS comparison I loosened a core till it leaked as seen here.

Then using my torque wrench I tightened the core till the leak just stopped. I then continued to tighten the core till I reached about 1.5 Inch Pounds (this was 1/4 turn after the leak stopped) I then continued to tighten the core till I reached 5-inch pounds (This was 3/4 turn after the leak stopped)

So I would suggest that you can simply tighten a core till the leak stops then rotate 1/2 turn more.

Here are sample core tools.
The one on the left is a "professional" tool but I have also used my home made core tool for many years. This is just an old scrap rubber valve stem with a cap that has the cut-out to fit a core.


I hope this helps you understand a bit more about valves and valve cores.



Friday, November 2, 2012

Why do tire valves leak?


Many people who experience a tire blowout insist they had checked their tire pressure and that their gauge was accurate. So they blame the failure on a defective tire. However, what could have been the culprit was a bad cap on their valve.

Now I must say that if you have a TPM sensor that is basically a screw on valve cap, this warning probably does not apply as long as you ensure the valve stem is not dirty or covered in mud when you remove or install the TPM sensor.

A good valve cap is metal and has a small gasket or O-ring in it to seal against the end of the valve stem. The cap serves two functions. Primary is to keep dirt out. Second is to be a backup to keeping the air in if the valve core develops a leak. A cheap plastic cap may work on a 30psi passenger tire but I doubt it will last too long on a hot high pressure Class-A TBR tire.

Lets take a close look at the valve core.

I have labeled the plunger that opens the valve to let air in or out "P". The gasket that seals the core inside the valve stem "S". Note the small indentation that indicates this core has been used but not over tightened.

Finally the location that opens when you press on the plunger "V" is a small circular opening.

To the right is a graphic from Wikipedia showing how a Schrader valve operates.

If you look closely you can see the valve opening letting the air out.

Now lets look at what can happen if you get a single piece of grit stuck in the valve area.

I included the head of a straight pin so you can see just how small that bit of dirt is.

Now lets see what happens if this valve core with the grit in the valve is used on a tire.
Now you see why using a good valve cap is important. You must keep the dirt out of the valve area. If you discover a leak as shown in the picture above, cranking down on the core will only damage the core seal (the black band in the pictures above) and will do nothing to stop the leak. It is best to simply replace the core with a new one.


Friday, July 3, 2020

Valve Stems and TPMS Part 2


As a follow up to last week's post of why I recommend people NOT use rubber valve stems with their external TPMS sensors I decided to show some of the "guts" of valve stems.

Standard "rubber snap-in" stems like the TR413. If you look down the hole you can see the end of the brass part of the stem. More on this later.



These have been used for decades on hundreds of millions of tires. These can be installed by hand using a "puller" that stretches the rubber which makes the diameter of the stem small enough to "snap into place in the wheel hole.



Once installed the wheel "pinches" the rubber part of the stem to seal the air in. The arrows show the location of the wheel relative to the metal part of the stem. Note the part of the valve stem that goes into the air chamber was cur off before I took this picture.



You can see that the brass stops before it gets past the edge of the wheel. This makes installation easier.


Next, we have the "High Pressure" stems such as the HP-500.

Here you can see the brass part extends almost to the bottom of the valve and into the air chamber.

When the rubber is buffed off you can see that the brass part extends through the wheel hole (location shown with the arrows.)


Now when we look at a "bolt-in" stem, like this TR416s
we see the location of the wheel hole at the arrows. We can also see the much larger brass body (nickel-plated in this piece) that goes inside the air chamber and expands to a broad base. This type of stem needs to be installed through the wheel hole with the rubber grommet sealing the air. An external washer is used and the nut is to be tightened to specification to prevent air loss.






I am also including pages from the US Tire & Rim Association yearbook which publishes the "interchange and fitment" specs so all tire companies and valve manufacturers know what dimensions are required. This is the book where all the Load & inflation tables come from and might be considered the Tire Engineer's "Bible" and is used by tire engineers around the world when they are making tires that are intended to be used in the US.

Here we find the details of valve stem designs as specified by TRA.












Finally to show the attention to detail here is the spec for the little pin that sticks out of the valve stem. Not meeting this specification could be the reason your TPMS does not register your tire pressure. (Yes I have run into that problem)

I just wanted to try and give you a little understanding of the attention to detail tire engineers go-to when designing tires and when trying to understand the "why" for a tire to lose air.


Wednesday, June 24, 2020

Valve stems and TPM Sensors


I read the ongoing discussion on what valve stem to use with an external TPMS sensor.

A standard 65 psi max, rubber valve stem is very flexible as seen here.



Some people think the 80 psi max, "High Pressure"


HP 600 rubber valve stem is Ok to use with external TPMS sensors but you can see the HP-600 is still flexible.

Here is proof that an HP rubber stem can fail when a TPM sensor is installed.

IMO staying with any "snap-in" type stem is false economy given the metal bolt-in stems only cost $3 to $4 each. Not all tire stores will have the metal valve stems so check first. if they don't you can get stems at AutoZone, O'Riley's, Advance Auto Parts or NAPA or most any auto parts store or even on Amazon.
They are easy to install too. Don't let the service center tell you installing metal stems is a lot of work. Watch and you will see.
https://youtu.be/sJB9wPsbBVU
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:47 AM   #30
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Well, I’m glad this tread has provided some great info and opinions about tires losing air pressure and valve stems in particular. HOWEVER. The saga continued, and the mystery finally solved. After monitoring the tire off the trailer for nearly 2 weeks, with no loss of pressure, I put it back on. Got another trip planned this week, boondocking, go to my local ACE hardware for a propane fill. 5 miles each way. Come home, tire lost 4 psi. Other tires had gained 2 psi. At this point I’m apoplectic. So now, finally, I take the advise others have offered here and take it to my friends repair and tire shop. Put it in a tank. Tiny, tiny bubble. Only one. Take the tire off the rim, inspect the tire inside, rubbed with cloth to see if anything inside snagged, nothing. Remount the tire. Take the tire home, put it back on the trailer, make a 25 mile trip including highway and speeds of 65mph. Several stops along the way checking air pressures in all tires. End result, all tires exactly the same, 80psi cold, 84psi finish. THE CULPRIT????????? Wheel weight. Thats where the one little bubble came from in the tank. Removed both wheel weights before remounting. In the spring, when I go back to my friend to have him install bolt in valve stems for TPMS, rest assured all the wheel weights on the other tires are coming off.
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Old 10-15-2021, 06:42 AM   #31
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Well at least its fixed, you spent way to much time and effort to learn, but now you know. Past it along to others. I was guessing the valve stem, so I was wrong too.
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Old 10-15-2021, 07:05 AM   #32
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I'm glad you got it fixed but I'd like to see the weight before condemning that as the cause. While that may have been where it was leaking I doubt that was why it was leaking. Maybe debris on the rim or tire bead that was dislodged during the subsequent removal/remount? I've never seen a wheel weight that was made that could interfere with a tire bead.
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Old 10-15-2021, 07:57 AM   #33
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I'm glad you got it fixed. It would drive me crazy too. I would be leery about the wheel weight as a cause but anything is possible. The desired result is a non leaking tire and you have that now.
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Old 10-15-2021, 08:15 AM   #34
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It would be my opinion also that the wheel weight just happened to be where the little leak was. Coincidence.
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Old 10-16-2021, 06:09 AM   #35
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15” x 3.1416 = 47.124” of circumference. So in 47” of bead, a 1” wide wheel weight just happened to be where the leak was? Coincidence? The odds are 1 in 47 or if you wish, 2.12%. I think not. But to each his own. All I know is in the spring when the tires get remounted to install bolt in valve stems for TPMS all the wheel weights are coming off. I’ll have a bunch of stick on weights available for my buddy if he finds one way out of balance, otherwise, no weights.
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Old 10-16-2021, 07:17 AM   #36
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15” x 3.1416 = 47.124” of circumference. So in 47” of bead, a 1” wide wheel weight just happened to be where the leak was? Coincidence? The odds are 1 in 47 or if you wish, 2.12%. I think not. But to each his own. All I know is in the spring when the tires get remounted to install bolt in valve stems for TPMS all the wheel weights are coming off. I’ll have a bunch of stick on weights available for my buddy if he finds one way out of balance, otherwise, no weights.
If you want to see some really far out odds use the number of wheel weights installed vs the number of air leaks caused by wheel weights. I'm guessing it's in the tens of millions to 1. But it's obviously yout choice.
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Old 10-16-2021, 07:51 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bamabox View Post
15” x 3.1416 = 47.124” of circumference. So in 47” of bead, a 1” wide wheel weight just happened to be where the leak was? Coincidence? The odds are 1 in 47 or if you wish, 2.12%. I think not. But to each his own. All I know is in the spring when the tires get remounted to install bolt in valve stems for TPMS all the wheel weights are coming off. I’ll have a bunch of stick on weights available for my buddy if he finds one way out of balance, otherwise, no weights.
Here's an interesting read on "rim leaks"... https://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspen...eak/index.html The second section addresses wheel weights (complete with photos) that pretty much dispel the "weights cause leakage" theory.... It might not change your mind on this specific leak, but will give you more insight into how tire beads fit on rims and what causes leaks...
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Old 10-16-2021, 08:13 AM   #38
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I can tell you as the owner of a hvac business that oftentimes when there is a problem and then it corrects itself without any clear reason that you can pinpoint…. Some people need to hear…something….anything .. as to what caused it…it keeps them from obsessing about it and let’s them move on to worrying about something else..

We joke that it was the “defibrillator valve sticking”..or any number of made up harmless reasons.

It’s like going to the doctor and he tells you nothing is wrong when you know something isn’t right …it will drive most people crazy

If he agrees with you and gives you some simple treatment you will probably just move on and be fine with the prognosis

If you really want to open a can of worms just say … “does it always make that sound”?….When standing by their air conditioner

Glad it’s resolved though
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Old 10-17-2021, 09:14 AM   #39
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I will take this opportunity to repeat something I have said in another thread....somewhere. I don't know how many folks use, or have used, balancing beads in their trailer tires but if you do, don't. I did one time (at the suggestion of the service manager) and I had a devil of a time with the valve cores ALWAYS leaking - just kept replacing them. Took a while for me to figure it out but the beads deteriorate and become like beach sand, they then stick in the valve any time you lose air or if you depress and release it.
That is a good thing to know. I always wanted to try balancing beads in the motorcycle tires...
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