Confused and need help with safe weights

[cougar18]

My wife and I are newbie owners of our first 5th wheel. We have camped and trailered for years. I am overwhelmed with the math calculations with the maximum Tow Vehicle weight, Pull Vehicle weight, Hitch or Pin Weight. Both the, GMC and Keystone dealers have said I have plenty of truck to pull my new 5er safely. From reading the posts I know that there are more knowledgeable members out there that care more about safe pulling then the TV or PV dealerships. Could one of these members please plug the weight numbers into the calculation to provide me the real truth instead of just saying I have plenty of truck.
The TV is a 2018 GMC All Terrain Sierra 2500HD Duramax Diesel 6.6L Crew Cab 4x4 and has the following weights: Dry 7462 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload Weight 2513 LBS, GVWR 10000 LBS, Max Trailering Weight 13000 LBS and Max 5th Wheel Weight 13500 LBS.
The PV is a 2020 Cougar HalfTon 29RKS and has the following weights Dry 8801 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload 1599 LBS, GVWR 10400 LBS and a confusing hitch weight of 1605 LBS. If I am correct the Hitch or Pin weight should be between 20-25% of the GVWR, so at 20% of the GVWR 10400 the pin weight would be 2080 LBS. If correct and the TV has a payload of 2513 LBS that would that mean that I only have 433 LBS of payload left that can be added to the truck to pull safely. Hoping my math is wrong as 433LBS is double my own weight and doesn't leave much room for my wife and two 60 LBS dogs. Thanking all the mathematicians in advance and wish everyone safe travels in 2021.
SR Armstrong
Ontario, Canada

[Northofu1]

Hello and to the forum.
Personally, Your set up is not wildly mismatched. The drive train is more than adequate. The only area of concern of course is your ready to go camping weight. I am close too, I am using an Anderson Ultimate hitch which weighs approx. 40 to 50 lbs, which is lighter than a regular 5th hitch. I have weighed everything. Truck empty, truck ready for camping (not that I take a lot), hooked up trailer empty, and then trailer full and ready to camp.
I am under on all my weights. I do have 200 lbs more payload than you.
The only true way to tell is to weigh everything, hit a CAT scale near you, download the CAT app to your smart phone and it makes the whole transaction quite a bit easier. If you aren't technologically inclined you can walk in and talk to the weigh master and let them know what and how you want to weigh it.
There will be others around that are far more experienced than I to weigh in (no pun intended). Plenty of good advice here. Good Luck

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by cougar18

...
The TV is a 2018 GMC All Terrain Sierra 2500HD Duramax Diesel 6.6L Crew Cab 4x4 and has the following weights: Dry 7462 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload Weight 2513 LBS, GVWR 10000 LBS, Max Trailering Weight 13000 LBS and Max 5th Wheel Weight 13500 LBS.
The PV is a 2020 Cougar HalfTon 29RKS and has the following weights Dry 8801 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload 1599 LBS, GVWR 10400 LBS and a confusing hitch weight of 1605 LBS. If I am correct the Hitch or Pin weight should be between 20-25% of the GVWR, so at 20% of the GVWR 10400 the pin weight would be 2080 LBS. If correct and the TV has a payload of 2513 LBS that would that mean that I only have 433 LBS of payload left that can be added to the truck to pull safely. Hoping my math is wrong as 433LBS is double my own weight and doesn't leave much room for my wife and two 60 LBS dogs. Thanking all the mathematicians in advance and wish everyone safe travels in 2021.
SR Armstrong
Ontario, Canada

First, I'd ask where you got the truck empty weight?

"Doing the numbers" on the truck, they don't add up: 7462 + 2513 = 9975 (not 10000). So, somewhere, your stated weighs are incorrect. Granted, it's "only 25 pounds" but.... GM didn't open themselves to legal action by "mistaking 25 pounds" in such a potential for litigation.....

Along with that "consideration", the "shipping weight" (not the DRY weight) of your trailer is 8801. That weight is "as it leaves the assembly line" with NO optional equipment, no spare tire, no propane in the empty tanks and no battery"... You will NEVER legally tow your trailer at that weight. NEVER !!!

The "brochure pin weight" is also at that "shipping configuration". Again, you will NEVER see that weight, so the "18.23% pin weight" is not accurate, in actual pounds or in percentage of trailer weight. Here's a "closer estimate" (note, not actual weights, an estimate)...

The dry weight of your trailer will increase by 60 pounds (propane), 40 pounds (GP24 battery), 50 pounds (spare tire/wheel/carrier) and around 10 pounds (complimentary camping accessory kit). All of that weight is "in the front compartment" meaning nearly 100% of the added items will be "on the pin". So, 8801+60+40+50+10=8961 (as the trailer will sit in the dealership lot before you hitch it to your truck) that's a "pin weight increase of around 160 pounds" giving an estimated pin weight of 1765 and a "dry weight" (not shipping weight) of 8961. The "pin percentage is closer to 19.7%, and that is with "completely dry tanks, no cargo, no accessories and no hitch in the truck"....

When you add a 150 pound hitch to the bed and put the pin in that hitch, the "apparent pin weight" as seen on the truck bed will be closer to 1765+150=1915 pounds. That "apparent pin weight percentage" would be closer to 21.4% of trailer weight. Some will state not to include the hitch in pin weight calculations, some will argue it's part of what the truck "sees", so the pin percentage with hitch is 21.4 and without is 19.7. REMEMBER, both of those are for the "dry trailer with no cargo". It will go up significantly when you add your clothing, camping gear, food, water to tanks, tools, and anything else you might put in the trailer to enjoy using it.....

So, to answer your initial concern: Can I stay under my tow vehicle limits? The answer, IMHO is probably not when you add a 150 pound DW and 120 pounds of pets to the mix.....

I'll end with this "observation".... Both your truck salesman and your trailer salesman are "correct in context": Your truck is capable of "PULLING" your trailer. The duramax diesel is a strong engine and the same as found in the 3500 SRW/DRW truck, so there's "no question about PULLING" your chosen trailer.... The "significant context issue" is this: There is a significant and complex difference between PULLING a fifth wheel and CARRYING the weight of a fifth wheel..... Your truck can do one (pulling) but IMHO is incapable of "carrying the weight AND staying under the restrictions imposed by GM when they built the truck."

ADDED: I'd suggest that you "cut to the final answer" and hitch your truck/trailer, loaded as you will camp, add DW and the dogs to the cab and drive to the nearest CAT scale and get an "objective" not a "subjective" weight for your rig. Then you will KNOW where YOU stand, not where someone 1000 miles away "THINKS YOU MIGHT BE".... One is reality, one is guessing.... I much prefer to know where I stand (good or bad) with reality rather than "hoping I could be OK" with worrying about it without knowing..... The CAT scale is your "final answer"...

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by cougar18

My wife and I are newbie owners of our first 5th wheel. We have camped and trailered for years. I am overwhelmed with the math calculations with the maximum Tow Vehicle weight, Pull Vehicle weight, Hitch or Pin Weight. Both the, GMC and Keystone dealers have said I have plenty of truck to pull my new 5er safely. From reading the posts I know that there are more knowledgeable members out there that care more about safe pulling then the TV or PV dealerships. Could one of these members please plug the weight numbers into the calculation to provide me the real truth instead of just saying I have plenty of truck.
The TV is a 2018 GMC All Terrain Sierra 2500HD Duramax Diesel 6.6L Crew Cab 4x4 and has the following weights: Dry 7462 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload Weight 2513 LBS, GVWR 10000 LBS, Max Trailering Weight 13000 LBS and Max 5th Wheel Weight 13500 LBS.
The PV is a 2020 Cougar HalfTon 29RKS and has the following weights Dry 8801 LBS, Carrying Capacity or Payload 1599 LBS, GVWR 10400 LBS and a confusing hitch weight of 1605 LBS. If I am correct the Hitch or Pin weight should be between 20-25% of the GVWR, so at 20% of the GVWR 10400 the pin weight would be 2080 LBS. If correct and the TV has a payload of 2513 LBS that would that mean that I only have 433 LBS of payload left that can be added to the truck to pull safely. Hoping my math is wrong as 433LBS is double my own weight and doesn't leave much room for my wife and two 60 LBS dogs. Thanking all the mathematicians in advance and wish everyone safe travels in 2021.
SR Armstrong
Ontario, Canada

The reason this is confusing is that all those numbers are sort of like a logic puzzle... first put your camper year/make/model and same for truck in your signature. Second your payload is 2513 lbs. Your camper is a bit over 10K gross weight (loaded like if you are camping). That means your pin weight will be about 2300 lbs (23 percent of the gross trailer weight). That allows about 250 lbs for you, the passenger, the stuff in the truck and the hitch. You are kind of thin on truck. The truck can drag the trailer with no problem but the payload weight is. Oh yeah, I should have mentioned the factory pin weights listed for ANY camper a fiction.

[gearhead]

Go weigh the truck. Front tires on the forward scale pad and rear tires on the 2nd pad. Then hook up the 5th and go re-weigh. Do the math...rear axle of the truck weight versus rear axle of the truck with the 5th on it.
If you haven't used a CAT scale, every truck stop on the interstate has one. Just pull in the scale correctly. They might have a exit or do not enter sign on one end of the platform, so drive in the other end. There should be a button to push to get the attention of the clerk in the store. Sometimes they will have a button low enough for a pickup truck but sometimes its pretty high up for a 18 wheeler tractor, so maybe bring a stick with you to push the button if its too high. They will ask you your unit number. Make something up..#1, #4000, whatever. They might, or might not holler back at you through the speaker when they have the scale numbers. Give them a minute and go in the store and pay. Go home and come back with the 5th. Repeat.

[rbrdriver]

Me personally I wouldn't feel comfortable with that trailer unless I had at least a 1 ton srw minimum for sure.............

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by rbrdriver

Me personally I wouldn't feel comfortable with that trailer unless I had at least a 1 ton srw minimum for sure.............

This is the big issue with getting a 3/4 Ton Diesel, plenty of power, but not enough payload.
When we were looking to get away from and overloaded condition with our 12,300# 5er with a 2,700# pin weight, with what we carry in our truck we would have been tight with a 3500 SRW truck with a payload of 4,200#. We consume 1,400# of payload with me, DW, small dog, hitch, and in bed tool box. The math is 4,200 - 1,400 = 2,800# left for a 2,700# pin. If you look at our signature we have a 3500 DRW with 5,411# payload.